Transcript: Alderman's Court Ad Hoc Meeting

David L. Anderson

This meeting to order, it is 3:00. Okay, the meeting is now called to order.

David L. Anderson

The first order of business is the adoption of the agenda.

Fred A. Neil

So moved.

David L. Anderson

Council President Neil has moved to adopt the agenda, and Mr. Garfinkel has seconded. Is there discussion?

David L. Anderson

All in favor?

Council Members

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed?

David L. Anderson

The motion is adopted, the agenda is adopted.

David L. Anderson

First, first of all, I uh see, I want to uh introduce uh Council President Neil who has a, who I think has a wonderful vision for uh where we are going in general. And and I'd like to give him the opportunity to uh present it. Council President Neil?

Fred A. Neil

I thank you, Mr. Chairman. We're here today because of a cry for help. A cry for help that contains a deep irony. A group of citizens came to me and shared their concerns. Those concerns, reflected in the memorandum included in your packets, describe the situation where the sincere desire to help people struggling with addiction or mental illness, some members of the public and elected officials have become enablers. Instead of helping them recover, we have allowed behaviors that damage businesses, reduce property values, and diminish the quality of life for the overwhelming majority of our citizens. The irony is that we depend on the tax dollars charged very citizens and businesses to provide the services for those in need. We see the symptoms every day. They include, some individuals simply have given up on the traditional way of life, while others have made panhandling into a profession. Whatever the circumstances, the current system is not serving them, or the community, well. When I first moved to Dover in 2003, I was barely aware of the Alderman's Court. It disappeared because it cost more to operate than it generated in revenue. Here's another irony: the purpose of the new Alderman's Court could should never be to take money from people who have no money. That would be the height of insanity. Instead, the court should provide a legal framework to help, to require help for people who cannot help themselves. Many individuals suffering from addiction or serious mental illness are simply not acting rationally. Without accountability, they continue harming themselves, while disturbing the lives of those around them. For a variety of reasons, our overburdened justice system has largely turned away from enforcing many so-called loitering laws. As a result, these laws have ceased to be effective tools, either to help those in crisis or to protect the people and the businesses affected by their behavior. The devastation caused by addiction is deeply personal to me. My beautiful niece was a former state's attorney for Carroll County, Maryland. She was married to an emergency room physician, and had every reason to expect a bright future. After a serious automobile accident, she became addicted to prescription opioids. When tighter controls closed off those prescriptions, she turned to drugs purchased on the street, and she died from an overdose. I spent more than 20 years in as a public affairs officer for the Maryland Department of Vocational Rehabilitation, based at the at Maryland Rehabilitation Center, one of only nine comprehensive rehabilitation centers of its kind in the nation. There, I witnessed dedicated professionals helping people with blindness, mental illness, physical disabilities, and many other challenges to prepare for employment and return to productive, independent lives. I've also watched individuals who have been successfully trained and ready for employment stop taking the medications that allowed them to function. Some dislike the side effects, others believed they no longer needed it, and their lives quickly unraveled. At the age of 92, I fully understand why some people fear the new Alderman's Court could be unfairly used against minorities or vulnerable individuals. Those concerns deserve to be taken seriously. It is the responsibility of this distinguished panel to ensure that that never happens. There are plenty of offenders who knowingly violate our traffic laws, commit other offenses, and they should be able to provide sufficient revenue for the court to operate responsibly. The court should not balance its books on the backs of those people who are least able to pay. Our responsibility is to build a system that keeps our streets safe, protects our neighborhoods and businesses, and most importantly, requires meaningful help for those who cannot help themselves. If we can accomplish that, we will have served both justice and compassion. And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield the floor to you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. President. That's appreciated, and there's, and if you uh many of you have it, I know some of you may be a little newer to the system uh under the meetings and agendas. If you haven't seen it yet, there's a packet. Some of you may have checked back when it was just the agenda, but there's a full packet of information, and you which is uh being shown on the screen right now, and you are are welcome to uh go back into it at any time. Uh there's uh uh the President's original memo. I also included a memorandum which gave gives a little bit of uh of an overview of the Newark court. Uh there's also statewide uh caseload information, and there's uh budgetary information right from the uh Chief Alderman, then who we hope we're in contact with and hope to have at a future meeting.

David L. Anderson

So uh when we I'm going to introduce the clerk of the court in a moment, um and and we'll be able to have questions afterwards. But um the clerk of the court is more administrates the court. So um that's so, you know, don't ask the clerk of the court legal questions. You know, if uh that's we we'll have another opportunity, uh God willing, with the judge, uh the the the Alderman, the Chief Alderman in a in a future meeting. Uh Dr. Hall?

Mr. Garfinkel

Yeah, just point of information, we we are considering this as a proposal now, and not as a fait accompli, is that correct, sir?

David L. Anderson

That is correct.

Mr. Garfinkel

It's a, in a proposal stage.

David L. Anderson

That is correct. What we uh and this is uh and uh if you could please um uh just uh pass the sign-in sheet uh around. In case some people uh have missed it, because uh I think I know everyone here, but I don't know that Ruthie does, and we want to make sure that she has the opportunity to have everyone's attendance and welcome Kristen.

David L. Anderson

The um so now let's uh let's do the tough part, uh the fun part. Let's see if the uh if the part that always has a little bit of trepidation to it. Let's see if the uh if the system works. Uh uh I want to introduce to you the clerk of the court in Newark Alderman's Court, uh Ms. Terry Conover. Uh welcome.

Terry Conover

Can you hear me?

David L. Anderson

Yes, we can. All right.

Terry Conover

Okay. Uh yes, I'm Terry Conover, clerk of the court for Alderman's Court 40 in Newark.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Um could you please uh tell us a little bit uh about the court, uh maybe a little history, a and uh and its structure and how it works?

Terry Conover

Okay, so um we only handle in this court misdemeanors and traffic violations. Um we also will handle appeals for code violations, and we also handle parking appeals. Um we do handle some juvenile matters. A lot of our cases are traffic offenses, but we do handle, I would say for our court, a lot of DUIs. And then we also have the UD students where we get the um misdemeanors, the underage uh consumption, the open containers, and disorderly conducts. So we for a smaller town/city, we do handle, our volume is one of the larger Alderman's Courts in Delaware. Um and we are open 5 days a week, Monday through Friday, 8:00 a.m. to 4:00. However, we only have court on Tuesdays, Wednesdays, and Thursdays. Um we have two aldermen. The alderman is Lisa Hatfield, and she's been here almost 20 years. And our deputy alderman is Donald Gregory, and he's been here, I think, about 12 years. Um we also handle, so the police officers are mostly the prosecutors, so we'll have arraignment day. When they come in, when they receive the ticket, and they're given an arraignment, they can come in and they can plead not guilty, and we schedule it with a trial with the officer. However, all DUIs go on a Thursday with our prosecutor, um and any attorneys that enter their appearance we also schedule on Thursdays with a pro- prosecutor. The Public Defender's Office comes out here twice a month on the prosecutor day, Thursdays. Um we average right now on Tuesdays and Wednesdays about 17 trials, and our arraignments could be anywhere from 10 to 25. Um and it fluctuates. Sometimes, you know, the summer the students are gone, so sometimes it slows down a little bit over the summertime. However, so far this summer, we have not slowed down. Um the officers have been writing a lot of tickets. As for parking, we have a parking ambassador here on Tuesdays and Wednesdays when court is open. We only have court in the morning, basically 8:00 a.m. to 11:00. Um however, it can go longer if there's trials and things like that. But the parking ambassador's here then too and will handle in-person appeals. Any code violations we also handle on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and I schedule with the code enforcement officer and the landlord or the owner of the property who is appealing the violation. I'm trying to think if there's other um We do not handle red light tickets, and we do not handle the speed cameras that we just had installed in Newark. They're all being handled by the state right now, the speed, the speed tickets. Um like I don't know if you want to ask, I have a staff, I have two full-time clerks. The other addition is we have full, four part-time bailiffs, because we now put in our atrium, we have the metal detector and the scanning. Um and then I have two part-time clerks, but we're we're busy. So um so it's like, I'd say three full-timers, me and two clerks, and then I have two part-time clerks, and then we have the four bailiffs. We always put two out front to man the equipment, and we put one back here to help check them in and to help with anything in the courtroom. So, I don't maybe you want to ask me questions, cuz I could have missed something, and

David L. Anderson

Sure. Do I call or uh Sure, go ahead. All right, thank you. Um I'm going to uh uh start with uh uh Councilman Lewis, go around to Mr. Garfinkel and to Dr. Hall, and then, yes.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh good afternoon, Ms. Conover. I'm Councilman Lewis representing the Second District of Dover. How are you this afternoon?

Terry Conover

I'm good, thank you.

Brian E. Lewis

I think most of my questions uh are going to pertain to uh cost of the court. Uh this is something actually that I asked our former city manager to explore uh 2 years ago during uh one of our workshops, but uh it fell on deaf ears. So I'm glad it's uh kind of resurfacing. Um what does it cost um if you have this information, uh to run the court, the Alderman's Court, uh as far as salaries and benefits? Um and does it all come out of the city budget, or is it split with the state?

Terry Conover

So Okay, so when we So the salaries come out of the city budget, so we're actually getting ready to go in um budget season. So I do a presentation to the mayor and council. Each department director or head presents their budget, so I do present my budget. Um we have the court security fund um that all the courts that that should be on all the tickets for all the different um agencies and courts, so we use that money we cover the bailiffs um to pay the bailiffs. Now, I have a budget in In my budget, I to purchase their their guns, their Tasers, their um their vests, and their uniforms. Um so that's part of my budget. And then, this what is good with the Taser, the gun, if I lose a bailiff and he leaves and I hire a new one, we can reuse that. But I always have to order a new uniform, and I always have to order a vest, cuz it has to be fitted. And also with the vests, every 5 years they expire, so I have to reorder. Um but at least the Taser, which is expensive, and the weapon, if that's more expensive, we can reuse that.

Terry Conover

Um so what like when we collect a fine, in your fine like the fine for a speeding ticket, the fine is $25, let's say the court costs is $20, you have court security, which is $10, you have police fund, you have um we have VCF, we have video. So those, like the VCF, the police funds, um the video, I think there's another one, I write them checks quarterly to the state. Each department, like VCF, gets their check for whatever I have collected that quarter. Our costs, our fines, our court security, and our alcohol stays with the city. So I, each month, will report to council of what what we took in, all of our parking that we took in, um that stays with us, that's revenue, um and then I submit a check for fines, costs, alcohol, and um court security stays with the city of Newark. Does that help? Now our salaries So part-timers, there's no insurance, so I I have three full-timers and we have a salary, and they're they're with the We have multiple unions here, but they're with the union. And our our two aldermen, one is paid more and one is paid less because they're he's only here 1 day. However, that all comes out of my budget. All the salaries come out of my budget.

Brian E. Lewis

So are the aldermen paid by the city or the state? Because I was reading that they report to the Chief Justice? Yeah. So our our aldermen and our deputy are paid by the city. Okay. So so what's the total of your annual budget?

Terry Conover

Oh, all right, that I don't have my So hold on, I might have for my first budget meeting. Well, let me see if I can. Sorry. Hold on 1 second. Let me just see if I can get personnel, if I can find my personnel. I wasn't sure what we were actually discussing today, so I apologize. But I see if it's in here. All right, so my personnel So here under personnel services, well, this was for 2026: $659,333.

Terry Conover

So that So the unions get usually two different raises. I um like there's a merit step, and then there's their annual raise. Like I get raises, the judges don't always get a raise. It depends, they sometimes give them a 2%, 3%. Um I don't know if you've heard, but things are not looking good for us this year, so not sure who's getting what. Um but anyway, so that was our budget for personnel last year. So $660,000 is what But remember, we have four part-time bailiffs. I don't know what you're you know,

Brian E. Lewis

Yeah.

Terry Conover

That's a whole another I don't know if you were considering that. You got to get the equipment, the metal detector, they have to be trained on it, and also And with the bailiffs, they have to requal twice a year. Um

Brian E. Lewis

And

Terry Conover

So, they're trained on Taser, you're training their That's a whole another. Now the police helped me out, so I don't know if your police would help you out.

Brian E. Lewis

When you say the police help you out, is that with training or is that with uh service in

Terry Conover

Training. They help out with requalification and so I just hired a new bailiff, and he had to have do a full week of training to qualify. So they trained him, and then our bailiffs, to requal, they put them they'll take them out They'll pick a day in the spring, and they'll pick a day in the fall usually, and they have to do a requal. So twice a year they have to do requalifications, they have to do Tase- Taser training, and then I've added I like the scenarios to do, what if this happened? How to If someone come in and they were belligerent, what if you had someone come in, and they handle how they would handle scenarios.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay.

Terry Conover

Oh, we also have radios. They also have radios if they have to call dispatch or um police.

Brian E. Lewis

Plus Plus the um plus the courtroom, I presume, is it the council chambers? Uh I have never been up to

Terry Conover

No. No, we have our own we have our own court. We were like an add-on

Terri

a long year to go. Okay. They moved us from somewhere to here. I honestly don't know when this courtroom So we added the courtroom and we added our office.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay, so-

Terri

And we have like bulletproof windows back here now. Mhm. Things like that. So I mean you're more than we can down the road, whatever you can, you know, look at what we have. We are attached between the municipal building and the police station.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. Um so what about like courtroom equipment? Like that would fall under IT. That's included in your budget or is that separate?

Terri

Well, so IT covers that part of my budget. Like IT will cover everyone's, each department's budget for you know, like whatever we may need, you know. Like if we get an additional person then we need an additional computer. But IT figures out what I need and they I have a line for it in my budget and they handle that. Okay. But it's in Each department has a budget that in their budget, they have a line for IT.

Brian E. Lewis

Understood. One more question. How much revenue does the court bring in annually?

Terri

So now let me So I Let me look. So my last report, which I did in January, so kind of an idea. So even though I mark parking, and I have parking numbers in here, that it's revenue, but it's going to the city, even though we collect the parking payments and things. But just to give you an idea. Um so for 2025, so our what is revenue for the city is our court costs, our fines, the alcohol, and court security. So that's what I write a check every month to the city. And it was $460,190 last year.

Brian E. Lewis

460,000 you said?

Terri

416,000 460,000 That's the revenue.

Brian E. Lewis

And that all goes to the city, correct?

Terri

No, that goes to the city.

Brian E. Lewis

That goes to the city?

Terri

Yep. So the city's revenue for for the court is the fines and costs, the court security, and the alcohol. If there's an alcohol fee. Not all tickets carry it. That is collected we collect it on every ticket, or and then I, at the end of the month, they can I get numbers from DelJIS. I get all the numbers. I then write a check to the city. But for the year, that was revenue for the court, fines, costs, alcohol, and court security. But then we So that's actually, that's not, I'm sorry, that's only alcohol, fines, and costs. Court security for the year was 55,452. That was revenue. Okay? So and then this is for 2025.

Terri

So like So our revenue for parking was like 1,200 and some thousand. But that doesn't go to me. That goes to the city, but I keep track of what we're bringing in. So that's kind of I don't know if that helps.

Brian E. Lewis

Yeah, somewhat. I'm just trying to ascertain if we proceed forth with this proposal, how much revenue we would bring in opposed to how much we would be putting out.

Terri

Well, I mean, I think you're I don't I don't know your ticket numbers as opposed to Newark, but I can tell you this also. Hold on. So I also keep track of the tickets that the officers write per month. But I can tell you for that come here to our court. Now remember, they write a lot a lot more tickets, but you know, it depends if it's a drug charge, they might not keep it here. If it's felonies, they go up they go up to Wilmington. But for the cases, the tickets they wrote that came here, last 2025 was 10,000. But like in 2021, it was 14,500 tickets. Okay.

Terri

So it it we've gone down a little bit, but I think we're we we we went down for 2023 and 2024, um and we went back up. We went from 8,000 to 10,000 last year in 2025. And I think we're headed in that we're going to be I think we're going to be more than 10,000 again this year. So, I don't know what your officers are writing. I don't know the volume of tickets. Um, but like average in a month, we can go from 700 to 1,200 tickets in a month. It depends. Okay.

Terri

Summer is usually slower, but-

Brian E. Lewis

Now, you guys have though like meter maids they used to be referred to up there in Newark or is it all police officer issued?

Terri

No, no. So, that's what we call our parking ambassadors.

Brian E. Lewis

You have parking ambassadors up there. Okay.

Terri

And so, we take the payments here in court because they can appeal their parking tickets and can go before the judge, so we have to collect those payments. So, I I write it down in my report, however the revenue is going to the city, if that makes sense. Parking revenue is going to the city. I keep track of it, but it's not really my revenue.

Brian E. Lewis

Understood.

Terri

Touch, but it's going to the city. All that parking is going to the city.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. I I appreciate you uh answering my questions and uh I'm going to uh give it back to uh the the chair. Thank you.

Terri

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Garfinkel, Dr. Hall?

William Garfinkel

Hi Terri. Uh my name is William Garfinkel. I just have a logistical question for you. It seems like Tuesdays and Thursdays are extremely busy for you because you have DUIs and a lot of trials-

Terri

Sorry. Sorry, can you repeat that? It's sometimes hard to hear. Sometimes you're that sound muffled, I don't know. Can you repeat that? I apologize.

William Garfinkel

Can you hear me now?

Fred A. Neil

No, no.

William Garfinkel

Can you hear me now?

Terri

Yes, I can. Okay.

William Garfinkel

I just have a kind of a logistical question for you. It sounds like Tuesdays and Thursdays you're very busy. Thursdays you have DUI trials, which could last forever. You have other people coming in uh for other cases. How many courtrooms do you run on a Tuesday and Thursday?

Terri

Oh, so we So Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, we have just one courtroom. And Tuesday and Wednesday, they're all trials that are scheduled with the police officer. So I schedule the day the officer works day work. And they Their schedules are put into DelJIS so I know, or CJIS. So I know when they're on vacation or they have training. Now, so I We also I forgot to mention this. We collect We also handle UD's cases, so they come here too. But that's included in my in my all my stats. So we you know, we can have some days we only have 10 arraignments. We We could have 25. I control the scheduling of trials. Um so I try to keep it between 15 and 20. Um and then on the day that the prosecutor's here for our DUIs and anytime an attorney. Um the public defender day is pretty packed. Um

Terri

and that takes a little longer because there's attorneys here, and we we transport from the prison on public defender days. And then we always always have capias return hearings. It could be video, if they're incarcerated, or they're also coming in to see the judge. So it's We're pretty busy.

William Garfinkel

So what happens if you have It It sounds like you have a lot of backlog.

Terri

Well, well, so recently, normally the the trials for the officers were no more than usually around 2 months out. But compared to CCP, I think we're good. The officers switched to the 12-hour shift. Um recently, I think it was January, so that's made it all just a little more difficult in that they'll take vacations with, you know, the way their days off fall, they'll take 2 weeks at once. Um we are scheduling in October and November right now. And then for the for the

Fred A. Neil

May I come back to you please for a moment? Sure. Because Ms. Gibbs has to leave. Oh, sure. at like 3:40, so I want to make sure she gets her question in, if that's okay with you. Okay, then I'll come back to you. Thank you. Thank you. Okay.

Saduka Gibbs

My name is Saduka Gibbs. I just had one question. I'm just curious about the relationship with the court and the police department.

Terri

Okay, so the relationship in

Saduka Gibbs

With the How How do you work with, because it's obviously a lot of police coming through there uh on a regular basis. How do you work with

Terri

No, so the only days that they're here usually is when we have court. So if they if they want to swear to a warrant, they come in to the courtroom when the judge is here between 8:00 and 11:00, 8:00 and 10:30. Um we have So what How Newark does it, every every agency's different, but when I schedule an officer for a trial, they are on day work that day. They normally send over one officer to handle the trials, if they can. If they can work out a plea arrangement. And if they can't, then we call the officer off the road, and we have an actual trial. But a lot of times like, you know, if they provide proof of insurance, that part is The charge may be be may be dismissed, but they might still have the registration. And then they're guilty of that. It So there's there's more than usually just one charge. There's usually four charges, three charges, or something.

Terri

So the officer will, you know, they're eligible for probation before judgment, the officer will tell them that. Um, but if that officer, the liaison that's covering court that day, can't handle it because the defendant wants a trial, then we call the officer off the road. But we're usually done by 11:00. We only have court in the morning because our our aldermen are attorneys that have other jobs.

Saduka Gibbs

Okay. Thank you.

Terri

Yes.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Mr. Garfinkel, Dr. Hall?

William Garfinkel

I'll pass. Dr. Hall.

Fred A. Neil

Dr. Hall.

Speaker

Yes ma'am. I'd like to uh provide some stats for the previous speaker. According to fiscal 2025 stats, your court cleared 75% of cases. That's 15% lower than the state average for alderman court. Why is that?

Terri

Okay, wait. Tell me. I'm confused. When you say the state

Speaker

The the other the other alderman courts in the state of Delaware: in Rehoboth, in Bethany, in Dewey, in Newport, in Elsmere, in Millsboro. I'm comparing to all of those. And according to the stats, uh Newport is uh about what you guys are, and all the rest are upwards of uh 80 to 100%. The average from the state is 90% uh clearance rate for fiscal 2025. Yours was 75%.

Terri

Well, I don't I mean, I know that when I look at cases being scheduled in CCP, they're sometimes 8 or 9 months out. So now, I could schedule

Speaker

All right. Yes ma'am, I'm not casting blame. My point is my point

Fred A. Neil

Let her answer. You can go ahead and answer.

Terri

I'm sorry. Uh I I don't know. I know our volume. I I know Newport doesn't handle trials. I think they send theirs up to CCP. We handle all our own trials here. We also I don't know Rehoboth. I I speak to the judge down there quite often. She calls me a lot to ask how we handle things. We do do We do things differently. Now, sometimes cases are continued. There could be a reason like, I don't, you know A lot of times, the defendants don't show. That we can't help that a lot of times. We issue capiases, they have to pay capias fees. They still will not show up. You You continue it again. Like I have cases from 2011. You give them a cash bail, they post the cash bail and they don't come back in. I I don't know. I mean, there's reasons for continuances. Um, you know, sometimes they're incarcerated, then we have we don't At the time when we schedule the hearing, they're not incarcerated, then they get incarcerated. And, you know, we only do incarcerated on certain days because we transport. And I don't know why our numbers I I have no idea the volume of the other courts um to the other alderman's courts, but I know certain courts don't even have have trials. Like I don't think Newport handles, they all go up to CCP. I know Rehoboth can be busy, cuz I talked to her a lot, but I know we do things differently. And I will say this, our officers, they're always here. I know other courts have a problem with the officers appearing on their trial date, and I could say we do not have that issue here. They're always here. But I don't know why I is saying our stats are only 75%, I I can't answer that. I I think we move along very well.

Unknown Speaker

Out of reach. Uh, yeah.

Unknown Speaker

In, in all the other instances of alderman's court, they replaced, they didn't add to JP Court, they replaced the JP Court. So is it my understanding that we're-

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We're not trying to replace the JP Court.

Unknown Speaker

So, so this is a proposal to add an alderman's court on top of a JP Court?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We're not gonna do we're not gonna replace the JP civil court.

Unknown Speaker

Well there's a long history dating back to colonial times, especially in the state of Delaware, of the alderman's court, but never in conjunction with a JP in the same jurisdiction. Never.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. There's a JP civil court and a JP criminal court. The uh the JP civil court is uh would continue to exist the way it is. We're not dealing with the civil court. Yeah. Yeah, it's two different jurisdictions there.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh, anyone else? Yes.

Newark Court Representative

Can I ask a question? Sorry.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah.

Newark Court Representative

When when you're saying civil, um I don't like we do handle some civil violations here. Like underage is now civil, it's not criminal. Marijuana's civil. So there are some civil violations that come through our court. So I'm not, you know, I'm not sure when you're differentiating between civil and criminal.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, yes. Yes, we're talking about like um lawsuits.

Newark Court Representative

Oh, yes. No, we definitely do not handle that. No.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, that type of litigation.

Newark Court Representative

Okay. Yeah.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I should say civil litigation.

William L. Witham Jr.

Talking about like small claims.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, small claims and and the like.

Newark Court Representative

Right. Yes, we do not handle any of that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

In fact, one of the things that you all have that's uh unique that that affects temporarily your closure rates and uh actually makes your closure rates look a little less than they are is because Newark has something unique, which I think we need as well, which is probation before judgment is part of your enabling legislation, which uh which allows somebody, if they stay clear for 6 months or 12 months, depending on the offense, sometimes even less, to even be cleared. And so it looks like the charge they were charged, but the charge was cleared and dismissed, but instead they fulfilled their probation before judgment, so it allows people not to have a criminal record, but yet um get straight and straighten up their lives. Um, and because you don't want a first-time uh student from DSU uh, uh having a little too much to drink and get stupid um, you know, to have a criminal record when they can when you can get them straight on the straight path and do a probation before judgment. And that's that's sort of uh that's what you all have with uh University of Delaware, and And that affects the clearance rates.

Newark Court Representative

It's a little it's the state courts do like JP Court does probation before judgment. We do probation before judgment. The both the courts do it. Every court does it. Like we Alderman's Court does it different than that the JP Court. So if you have a traffic violation here in Alderman's Court, if you have not had a moving moving traffic violation, not a seat belt, not a registration, but like failure to stop at a stop sign, failure to yield, and you have not had a traffic violation in five years, moving traffic violation, you are eligible for probation before judgment. So we run your record. If you're out of state, we have to verify that in another state you didn't have not have any uh moving violations. Then you're eligible. We put you on a term of probation, and it could be 6 months, it could be less. You know, it's it's case by case. But and then we run you in 6 months. You have to have paid the fine, and we run you and make sure that you didn't pick up another traffic violation. If you did, then that would violate that probation, and that probation now becomes a straight guilty. It's a guilty. The other probation, if you successfully complete it, it's not considered a conviction. It's not reported to the DMV. It shouldn't affect your insurance at all. Um, but it is on your record. It doesn't go away. So I don't want like so if you have probation before judgment for a traffic record, and I run your record whether in DMV or in DELJIS, I can see your speeding ticket and that you received probation before judgment. It never it doesn't go away. A DUI never goes away, it's always on your record. Criminal, criminal cases, let's say an open container, now that is criminal, and they get probation before judgment. So you only look at their criminal record to see if they've had anything in the last 5 years. Now a lot of the college students could have had a noise violation a year ago, successfully completed the term of probation, however now they pick up another one, they are not eligible for probation because it has not been longer than 5 5 years. They can get the criminal probation before judgments, they can get those expunged. Traffic, you cannot expunge those, and civil violations, like an open container now civil, that cannot be expunged. But your criminal, your criminal um probation before judgments can be expunged once you successfully complete the term of probation. I don't If that explains it. It's Probation before judgment is not considered a conviction. So we UD is still notified, because it's they get a copy of our docket, but it's not a conviction. I don't know what they do for their discipline for for the students that get noise violations, open containers, you know, the parties. Like we have some civil when there's more than, you know, 50 people at a party. That's a civil violation. Um, if that better explains it. It it is on your record. I just want you know, even though you have probation before judgment for traffic, it is on your record. It's just not considered a conviction. It doesn't get reported to DMV. And same with criminal, it's not considered a conviction, and you can later get it expunged. I I hope that explains it a little better.

William L. Witham Jr.

Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Dr. Hall? Okay. Um, Ms. Smith?

Ms. Smith

Yes. One of the questions I have because uh this the lady here, you know, I know you're trying to move it over into City Hall. How would it work with security in City Hall if we're gonna have DOC um bring in inmates at City Hall? Have y'all thought about that? If people have a capias, they got to come here for court.

Ms. Smith

Uh uh that's one of my many questions, but I want to start there.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, that's something to discuss. Uh she told you how they do it up there, but But that's something that she can't answer. That's something that we That's a question for you and the chair. That's correct. Yeah, that's something we'll discuss. Let me refer Let the judge

William L. Witham Jr.

Judge, generally speaking, if you issue a capias from the alderman's-

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Judge Witham for today.

William L. Witham Jr.

-it's going to be superseded by any of the capiases from other uh record courts, because the Alderman's Court is not a record court. But there would be I think, under their in terms of their charter and the law, they you can take an appeal from the Alderman's Court, but it doesn't go to JP Court, it goes to Court of Common Pleas. Right. And, and, frequently, a lot of cases are are taken out of the jurisdiction of of Alderman's Court to the trial courts. It happens a lot.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right. Yeah.

William L. Witham Jr.

And that's one reason probably why the cases are not resolved, because they're subsumed by superior courts.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that makes sense. Like

William L. Witham Jr.

I'd I'd like to ask her a question.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Please do.

William L. Witham Jr.

Hi. Do you Do you uh Does your court handle uh motions by lawyers?

Newark Court Representative

Yes. Like a motion to suppress, if there's a drug trial or a DUI, um like if there's blood involved, they'll they'll they can they'll handle motions. Motion to suppress. I mean, sometimes attorneys withdraw their entry. But we do handle motions, yes.

William L. Witham Jr.

I I understand that your court and other alderman courts are not not courts of records, is that correct?

Newark Court Representative

I'm sorry, say that again.

William L. Witham Jr.

You're not a court of record because if there's an appeal from Alderman's Court to J to uh Court of Common Pleas, the trials will be called de novo. It starts all over again, is that correct?

Newark Court Representative

So, so this court, so a lot of like the JP courts, I think they the they can the defendant can say, "I want to appeal this to CCP." We do not do that. All our cases are heard here. The only time that we that we can they can appeal it is the fine amount itself, not just the total amount. Like on a speeding ticket, a fine starts at $25 and can go up. So the fine itself has to be over $100. It must be $101 for them to appeal it. They have to pay They have to write a check to CCP for $125 that is non-refundable whether they win or lose up in CCP. The only other thing that we do So we have very, very few appeals. Um, everything stays here initially. We can have a trial, and after the trial, if they're found guilty, they can appeal it if the fine amount is over $100. Now, we do have DUIs that could be their second DUI, and they're eligible for DUI court in CCP, and they wish to be part of that program. We then have to reach out to the AG's up there in CCP, their clerks, and we have to get like a rand schedule, which is an evaluation to see if they're eligible for the DUI court. Then, if they are and they want to participate in it, we have what we call a stipulated trial. We have a trial. They're found guilty, everything. Then I do the appeal process, and it goes to CCP for the DUI court. But and we don't have a ton of those. It Most DUIs are just sentenced here and done. But there are people that could be on their second, which we still handle the second DUI. Third DUIs are felonies, and we don't handle felonies. So So there's very rarely an appeal up to CCP unless the fine is over 100, and that it doesn't happen often. And the only ones that we do on a more regular basis is for DUI court if they're accepted into the program.

William L. Witham Jr.

And, as I That explains appeals. And, as I understand it, uh you have no cases which could be subject to incarceration?

Newark Court Representative

I'm sorry, can you say that again?

William L. Witham Jr.

I said do you have any cases where you're subject to a person being incarcerated?

Ms. Smith

Do you have cases for people to be incarcerated?

Newark Court Representative

Can we sentence them? Yes. We can. We do. We have. Um, we also put them on probation. They're also put on probation, and we send all the paperwork to probation and parole. They have conditions. We handle violations of probation. So, yes, we do sentence to um level 5 uh. Usually, it's followed Like we'll suspend level 5 suspended for, and we give them a term of probation. We have given them jail time, so it it depends.

William L. Witham Jr.

What is the limit of your incarceration? Is it 30 days?

Newark Court Representative

So let me see. Hold on. We normally don't That I would have to check with the judge. Um, we normally do not incarcerate more than 30 days. Um, so some like driving while license suspended, if you're convicted of a second one, that carries an automatic um jail time of 30 days. Uh, but a lot of times on probation we'll do 30 days level 5 suspended for 1 year level 3, 1 year level 2, something like that. But, so you want to know what's the max, I'd have You also have to look at the sentencing guidelines for what how much level 5 time you can approve is is imposed. But um, I will talk to Judge Hatfield tomorrow just to see if there is a max. I mean, we don't have felonies, so they're misdemeanors, and I I don't think you know, too many misdemeanors that come to our court carry like 5 years level 5.

William L. Witham Jr.

You obviously have rules follow up by criminal rules. Do you follow the criminal rules that the Court of Common Pleas would have, or Superior Court would have?

Newark Court Representative

Can someone re- repeat that?

William L. Witham Jr.

What, what rules of criminal procedure do you follow? Do you follow the the constitutional court court's rules of criminal procedure, such as Court of Common Pleas?

Newark Court Representative

So Newark has their own code. So Newark has their code. Our our code's different than some of the state's, but we follow like so if I I want to look up what um um open container, what what the penalty, what the fine amount is, and if they carry jail time, I go into the city code. I type it in, and it'll tell me. So we follow the city code here. When the police officer writes it, he has to use the Newark code. If he uses a city If he uses the state code, then it has to go to JP Court.

William L. Witham Jr.

Thank you.

Newark Court Representative

You're welcome.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Any other questions? Yeah. Okay. Uh, Ms. Representative Harris?

Kerri Evelyn Harris

I don't I I don't know if this is who this is for, but um how do you avoid the the fines and fees turning into a funding mechanism for the city?

Newark Court Representative

Like how do we avoid the fine what?

Kerri Evelyn Harris

Uh, fines and fees turning into a funding mechanism for the city, and so, therefore, um uh creating a possible, like, quota system or the impression of a quota system?

Newark Court Representative

Well, I think everybody everyone We We follow So our fines We We It's not like um If you look at the overall speeding ticket of a uh a state trooper or county police get, that it's going to be more than the city of Newark. Our fine may be 25, their fine may be 20, but they have a transportation fee, they have an ambulance fee. We don't have that. Some things are set like the UCF is 18% of the the fine. Our fines are usually not if not the same as the state, it's we follow the state. We're in we're close. We're not like like the state doesn't say a $20 fine on a speeding ticket, and we say a $100. I mean, that's how we're pretty much similar. But also like I think the state courts, they multiply by the numbers over the speed limit. We don't We don't really do that. We do to a degree, but not as much as like the state when they do their codes, when they use their their codes to write a speeding ticket. So I think that's how we you know, we I think our fine I've been here 10 years now, and our fine has been $25 for a speeding ticket. It hasn't changed in 10 years.

Kerri Evelyn Harris

Have have complaints Excuse me.

Newark Court Representative

Or longer. Actually, it's been longer.

Kerri Evelyn Harris

Have you gotten any um complaints at the city, like city council meetings, from community members saying that there seems to be like an increase or anything like that, or have you guys been able to avoid people feeling like uh the Alderman's Court is a is a funding arm of the city?

Newark Court Representative

I don't think um Well, I don't think that's the biggest complaint. I really have not heard that. I don't attend many council meetings if it doesn't involve the court. But I think they have other complaints, like they don't want taxes, the water fee, the um uh water fee, electric. That's where they're they get more We have to to raise fees every year. That's where I'd say the majority of the complaints come in. And, also, like sometimes the officer can lower the like we can suspend some of the fine if we have to if someone's like You know, sometimes people are on fixed incomes, which the officers are very fair and try to work with them. And sometimes, like they're going 25 over, and they'll lower it to 5 over, which lowers the fine amount. Like, the more you're going over the speed limit, the higher the fine gets. That's in That's all over Delaware, whatever court. So I think they try to work with them on that. But, in all honesty, I don't hear that as a big biggest complaint. Um, I think the speed cameras that went up have been causing a few issues, but we're not even getting that revenue. That's not coming to the city. That's That's not even coming to us, so. But they are complaining about the speed cameras.

Kerri Evelyn Harris

Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah. Dr. DeWitt, the Councilman Rocha, anyone hasn't asked a question? Uh Council President? Uh any anyone in the uh uh city manager, do you have any questions?

David S. Hugg III

Not for her, not our guest.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Not for our guest. Any in the uh I guess that the public's left. Oh, Mr. Powell, did you have a question?

Will Powell

I had comments I want to say after, but it could be answered by either you or I'm not sure if they're structured like we are, or similar when it comes to the construction, property, code enforcement Board of Appeals. Would that dissolve in this case, or?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, that's um they take appeals, they do. Um, they take appeals from uh code enforcement. Now uh now, we don't have to do that. We set up our own structure uh in what the jurisdiction is. But, but uh, now I did the do you have a question There was a question uh regarding appeals with code enforcement. Do you have a board that looks over it first that it's appealed from, or are the appeals directly taken to the court?

Newark Court Representative

So we do handle code appeals, but there's a lot of little

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

So it would be a citation that is different than a violation. Violations we do not This court does not hear. That goes before our like Fire Board, Housing. That's a whole another board with the city.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

We handle citation appeals. Like high grass, certain things, um cars parked on the lawn, different things. However,

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

the problem is we have a bunch of landlords that are are causing a lot of problems when they rent to the college students. Um,

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

so now only the landlord or the owner of the residence can can appeal these citations, the code citations. The renters can no longer do that. So that has slowed down a little bit.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

But what the you know, the the the renter may want to appeal, the college kids come in here, but we can't we don't allow it. It has to be the landlord. And um, but then the landlord puts, even if they went out there and mowed it and took

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

care of it within the time frame that they have to correct the problem, the landlord assesses an extra fee to the renter, even though the renter has corrected it, and normally the code enforcement officer would dismiss it because they corrected it, they went out and mowed their lawn.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

But the landlord is not going to appeal it. They put it on the the renters. So that's been causing a lot of problems. But we do handle appeals. And we have a new thing, it's called a nuisance violation.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

That's a big, $1,500 fine for um landlords that have like property consistently, all the time, we are giving them fines and and violations and citations. So we added that. That's a new ordinance, and that's a hefty fine.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

So we've had a couple of those, but they're all handled here in court.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. And I know that you have have uh something around 4:00, that you had were with us till 4:00 and it's uh uh 4:00 now. Was there any concluding

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

I'm okay. It's fine.

David L. Anderson

Was there any conclusions you wanted to make?

David L. Anderson

A concluding thought?

David L. Anderson

Madam Clerk, do you have any concluding thoughts?

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Oh, for me? I thought you were talking to anybody. No,

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

I just think um depending on the route that you want to go and how you want to proceed, I think eventually there might be some legal questions, because you're going to have to have, I don't know what if you use state code, you use

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

um if Dover police use the city codes or I would imagine they're using, when they write their tickets, the state codes, because they don't go to an alderman court, like that's going to be a legal matter. Like if you're going to have Like we use Newark codes to come here to

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

to the alderman's court. Um, like I will I have the city solicitor, I can I can give you that name when it comes down to it, because there may be legal questions that I'm not familiar with. But I can

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

I can answer questions, I can I can come down sometime, and um if you get when you get into it further.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Um, I think it's going to be it could be a lot of work. That's all. I I think it could be. And in years past, I want to say this, not since I've been here, but

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

years past, they tried to get rid of this court and wanted us to go under the state courts. That was that was a it came very close, like in the early, I don't know, 2013, 14,

David L. Anderson

I think it was 2012, yeah.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

So that's a concern, and that's always on the back of our mind. They've left us alone for 10 years, 12 years. But that was a a big fight that the city had to keep to keep the court here. So that's something to consider. I don't, you know, I don't know.

David L. Anderson

And so you found it they obviously found it beneficial if you all kept it.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Yes. I I think it's it's good for the officers. They can come over and swear to warrants. I mean, we don't have the things We're not 24/7. We only have court 3 days a week in the morning. Um, but people, you know, they can come in here, they can clear a capias as long as we're here.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

You know, we can take care of things. They don't always have to see the judge. We do video hearings with the prison if they're in there and they're incarcerated on something else, but they have a fine with us. We can reset the payment plan. Um, there's a lot that this court does. We're we're a busy court for

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

a small Newark. I think if you go this route, I think you would Dover would be busy.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you so much.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Oh, you're welcome.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I got one more question.

David L. Anderson

Oh, we do have another question.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes, uh Madam Clerk, uh this is Councilman Rocha. Um my question is, you know, you say you have a court there. Are there holding cells in there as well?

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

So we use we use the um police if we have to use a holding cell. Um, and then the DOC comes through the sally port to the to the police side, and they call up, we let the police know to let them in, and they just they walk them over. Um, so we use their sally port, but it's it's rare that we have to use their sally port.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Oh, because you guys are right next door to each other.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Yes. And we don't usually Like if we're sentencing someone to jail, the police just will take them over and put them in a holding cell till they could be transported. But I mean, there's you know, maybe twice in the whole time I've been here that we've had to use their sally port for something with us.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. Thank thank you.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

So that can happen, yeah.

David L. Anderson

Yeah, it's pretty rare. Well, that's good. Thank you. And you've been with how long again?

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

I've been here 10 years, and um but I was a probation officer up here in New Castle for 28 and retired and came here. And um and I I like it here. It's it's run very well, the city manager, the police,

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

we could all we work very well with the police. The two judges are very good, very fair. So,

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

That's terrific.

David L. Anderson

Uh thank you for for that insight, and uh and we'll be in communication, and get and uh and well, I'm sure we'll we'll pull uh other guests uh uh from you all.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Okay. And I don't mind coming down. Sometimes that's you know, better sometimes to talk in person. So let let me know. I don't mind. Um, and I'll just wait to hear. I know it's going to be a lot of work, so

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

I understand. But if you need anything, please reach out to me.

David L. Anderson

It is, because we have to decide on what we want, set the goals, what the jurisdiction would be, and yeah, I mean that we're we're starting fortunately, we don't have to start from ground zero, because this is not the first time this is done in Delaware.

David L. Anderson

Uh we have Newark and some other We have other places, six other jurisdictions we can pull from. But so that's a um But definitely we are But yeah. But but I remember the debate in 2012, mainly the state wanted the money.

David L. Anderson

That's what it was about. It was about the money. But it was

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Yeah. But, yeah, it was a It It happened a couple times, but the last time it was very, very close. Very close. So, I'm glad it didn't happen, because I think it's good that we're next to the police, but I'm also here with city hall, I can deal with

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

code enforcement, things like that, parking comes here, we handle parking appeals here. It it really it runs smoothly, it really does.

David L. Anderson

Great. Glad it does. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

You have a

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Okay, so I'm good to sign off?

David L. Anderson

You are. You have a Okay. You have a

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

wonderful day, and we thank you so much for your time.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

No problem. Thank you. Bye-bye.

David L. Anderson

Bye.

David L. Anderson

All right. Now, we will since we have somebody offline, we will go around the table and just uh get the first level of thoughts that people have. And uh start with Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I mean, you know, it sounds to me like they have a convenient setup up there.

David L. Anderson

Which they developed over time.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Over time, yeah. So, you know, even in our planning, you know, it doesn't it doesn't sound like our our chamber is going to

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

meet the need. It might be a temporary thing, but we have to figure out long-term, you know, where we would be able to uh have a facility to accommodate

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

you know, this initiative and uh, you know, how much start-up money is going to cost, you know, that kind of thing is that's what, you know, uh And then sorting through

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

any differences that they may be doing that we don't need, and you know, developing it for for us to benefit here.

David L. Anderson

Absolutely.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

You know, that's just things right now that's like to see uh how it progresses in the conversation.

David L. Anderson

Absolutely. Thank you, Councilman. Ms. Maucher?

Ms. Maucher

I don't have a thought at this time.

David L. Anderson

It's okay.

Ms. Maucher

I'm going to reserve it for now. Until we get to uh further into meetings, I do have some things to talk about, though.

David L. Anderson

That's good. And thank you for being here.

Ms. Maucher

You're quite welcome.

David L. Anderson

Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh like I said, this is something that I wanted to explore 2 years ago. Um, I based on what I heard, I I don't really know if this is feasible right now.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh first and foremost, um we really can't make any decisions on the city level until we request a change in the charter, because this is something that's going to have to go before the legislators. And you don't know

Brian E. Lewis

if they want this or not, because you have the JP court, and that's funding the state, and they're state legislators. So, uh again, um my concern is always the cost. That's why I asked the financial-based questions,

Brian E. Lewis

what would the court bring in, how much are we going to put out. As we all know, uh this fiscal year we ran a deficit, so or came pretty close.

Brian E. Lewis

Um, so all those things being said, um the jury's still out with me.

David L. Anderson

All right. The uh uh Mr. Harbeck?

Mr. Harbeck

Well, I think there's just a lot more to deliberate on and I think there's a lot more information that we need, so I don't want to give a knee-jerk response.

David L. Anderson

That's fine. And that's and that's our part of uh what we're looking for is to understand what why to give people a show how it works,

David L. Anderson

what it is, how it works, then we can talk about what it can be uh for us, how it could be funded, things like that, and and then we we would talk about

David L. Anderson

what type of jurisdiction is needed. And then once we were to settle on that, we would put that in the charter change resolution to the General Assembly. Um, a lot of it would obviously mirror Newark, but we would

David L. Anderson

There are things that we may want to see that that's not an issue over there, and things that, you know, and we we would adjust. And then after we uh then after we The big part that I would see is setting up the the jurisdiction and what we would want.

David L. Anderson

And then after that, it would uh go to the General Assembly, they would approve the authority. Then we would have to come back after the authority is approved, and we would uh uh well, not necessarily this committee, but I'm saying, but

David L. Anderson

but it but then it would have to be once it's approved, it's not going to be set up the next day, because then you have to then the the city manager would have to figure out things with with council, and there would have to be

David L. Anderson

uh budgets. I mean, we we may, like council said, we may start out like in a city hall uh situation, and but we'd have to but we'd have to set something up. We may have to uh

David L. Anderson

we may have to look into a a bond issue to rehabilitate uh for a building. We may just rent a place uh which would come out of the revenues of the court. You know, in other words, it what we would have to look at all of the

David L. Anderson

different options, set that up, and then we would we we would all would have to get our judges uh approved, our our aldermen, you know, they would we they would be nominated like uh by the city, but then the

David L. Anderson

governor ultimately would have to approve those choices, and nominate them, and then that nomination would have to be approved by the state Senate. And so, depending upon the cycle, um

David L. Anderson

you know, it you know, like if like if they approved it in, let's say, May, and we didn't get it set up till October, we couldn't probably couldn't get an alderman approved till at least January.

Ms. Maucher

So, you're talking about all in a year.

David L. Anderson

I'm just giving a scenario.

Ms. Maucher

No, uh I'm just letting you know where your mind is.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

It would be a year and a half, at least.

David L. Anderson

Yeah, a year and a Right, a year and a half probably. It could. It could.

Ms. Maucher

The legislation would have to be done during legislative session, but yeah. Um, but for the um Senate to to confirm, that they often do stuff off session during special sessions. That's true. Yeah.

David L. Anderson

I've seen that. I've seen that. Yeah. If they're going to have somebody else, they may add that. Because I've seen them do other judges like in weird times, like in November.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

So, um are you going to give us an opportunity to look at the other five

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

aldermanic courts just to just to get a different perspective than I know Newark might be the model, but is is it they're She said

Ms. Maucher

They're online.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

she said Rehoboth does things different, so why, you know, just to get a different perspective, can we

David L. Anderson

Absolutely, we can. And uh now, it's going to be up to them how much they want to give us of their time, of course.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, but a reach-out.

David L. Anderson

But uh but I think uh doing a second uh or a third even. Yeah. I don't know that we need to do all six, but

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

No, no, no, I'm just saying.

David L. Anderson

But but that's the But the the committee will Yeah, I mean, obviously for the first uh meeting or two, I had to set the agenda, of course, but but the But this is a committee, and not a this isn't uh the chairman's show.

David L. Anderson

This is the committee, and the committee's going to determine what type of direction, what type of information it needs, and the committee And that that's why we're going around the table, because I want to hear what you think you're thinking, you're needing, and that's going to determine where we start going the next meeting.

David L. Anderson

And the and so on, because you're going to drive this. I mean, somebody had to start it, of course. But but once we But now that we're getting going, you're going to drive this and uh as a committee uh to help determine what type of information you need so that you can uh

David L. Anderson

pull together the the valuable information. Um, oh, Council President, then Dr. Halpern.

Fred A. Neil

Um, I have been, one of the things that's bothered me, not bothering me, but has been guiding me is is things that my constituent, uh Mrs. uh Linette Smack has has said to me. She had a great concern over taking what we do, general,

Fred A. Neil

for the uh construction appeals, and having it pulled out and put into this court. Now, I don't think we have to do that.

Newark Alderman's Court Clerk

I didn't I didn't say bring that into Alderman's Court.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

No, no, he's saying he said you didn't say that.

David L. Anderson

He said she had a concern, not you.

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, so my so my concern, because we serve on that committee, we know uh well, we work in that committee, and I don't see any reason why you have to push that into there. I think we have to form this based on

Fred A. Neil

what we have learned from our people who have had concerns about the previous Alderman's Court. I think the same thing is we have to look at the fact that nothing is happening and nothing will happen as long as the courts are dismissing

Fred A. Neil

what has happened to our cities for people who can't help themselves. And there has to be a a point, the leverage point has to shift when these people are now making it difficult for people, for jobs,

Fred A. Neil

for businesses. In my opening remarks, this is what I said: what do we do, it may be involuntary commitment, does that have to be expanded? We have to have the legal form, we just can't say, "You have to go into detox

Fred A. Neil

and be there for a period of time." When detox is over, what's going to happen to that person? There has to be something at the end of that. We have to have people who are consistently uh messing up our streets.

Fred A. Neil

We need to have something. We We can't touch the drug dealers, that is the court's job to take care of that, but we have this this group of people who are basically devastating the quality of life,

Fred A. Neil

businesses, homes, and values of our businesses that drive

Fred A. Neil

the economy that we need to basically to help them. That's the irony. And that's what we have to solve with this, bringing back the Alderman's Court as a legal means to do so. The thing is, I think, and we've kind of got off of that when we start talking about the traffic problems and how they handle it, I just look at the traffic problems as a cash register that has to going to be it's going to be able to provide the the dollars that are necessary in this process because it is the court cost, and that that's where it's going to come from. But that's the challenge to do that without hurting the things that Miss Mack has brought up to us. And I'm driven by that. She may not think I think that, but I'm driven by that. I think about that. That is something that is extremely important to be fair, but we're still looking for justice with compassion. Ready?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, one of the things Mr. Roop Thank you. One

Roy Sudler, Jr.

of the things that that I like is, uh, for instance, things like trespassing that they don't have time to deal with can be dealt with. It's a misdemeanor. She

Andre M. Boggerty

She said that if the police officer uses the state law, Yeah. it's out of our ju- it would be out of It's out of their jurisdiction.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right, but there Right, but there are things that

Andre M. Boggerty

I understand. But we don't We don't have a trespassing ordinance. We don't have an ordinance that addresses

Roy Sudler, Jr.

We do. We do have city Only on Only on city

Andre M. Boggerty

property. But

Roy Sudler, Jr.

we could expand that easily. And we We, I mean, that is

Andre M. Boggerty

Well, we tried that before.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Not with We didn't have an Alderman's Court.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And we didn't try to expand that. Not Not in my time here, anyway.

Andre M. Boggerty

I don't know. What What was that, the doddering law?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

That was Oh, yeah. That was expanding That was taking the city code, loitering, so they can handle that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And that's that was uh important, in my view. But that's the But, once again, the um So let's uh go around. Uh Mr. Wilson, I believe you're next. You haven't spoken yet.

Bill Wilson

Yeah, I just I'm going to digest. I'm listening. I'm going to digest what I hear and come back with some questions and what the subject is.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Dr. Halpern.

Dr. Halpern

So I'm going to go into this with a very open mind. You know, I've I've worked with Wanda a little bit. I understand some concerns she has. Um what I do know is we're the city. We can't continue doing what we're currently doing. And I'm open to any measure which we can see some improvement. I'm not quite certain how this forum's going to work, because I think that there's going to be, you know, some charged beliefs already, and I think starting with just in exploring different courts uh to kind of understand it has been beneficial, but I think we all have to start out with common goals. And then we work backwards in what we're capable of doing under these courts, what's in the the different jurisdiction. Because um if we start with common goals of what we want to see in Dover and whether this court would help uh ensure that we get to that, I think we could find some common ground and and uh listen to each other's concerns, design it in such a manner that everybody feels protected and we get what we want out of it. But if we come into it with an ultimate no and or yes, uh it's just not going to work. You're going to, you know, we're just going to keep going at each other. And so I I I think just you know, starting at a much higher level and working our way back may be beneficial. If from a state level, you know, from from state government, I I'm not, you know, very well versed in it, but I think if we deliver something and say, "Hey, we just want this back in our charter," I would have to assume the state's going to say, "No."

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And And why? They're used to say yes. But if we go into it with something that has been

Dr. Halpern

very well-vetted, Yes. that we if had both sides really vet this, and say, "This is what our goals are, and this is what we're trying to achieve," and I think they'll probably look more positive on something like that. That's just my gut opinion, but is that, you know, what you know, What? I think the consensus

Wanda Mack

coming from the community is is helpful. Okay. Yeah.

Dr. Halpern

So I think just putting in and you know trying to get it turned back on, I I would I you know, I just don't think the state would look as favorable if it wasn't vetted correctly, you know, by all of us. Yeah. That's my point.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I agree. Uh, one of the big things to us, we're not here to waste our time. And uh so I don't agree that that we have to bet it, because we want it done right. And remember, the city of Dover has not had this since 1950s. And we're talking over 70 some years. And it was the city that, at that time, it was the town,

Dr. Halpern

Right.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

you know, because they didn't have any of these problems, and, you know, they and they could depend on uh a state court system back then. And so they gave it up. Um, you know, others didn't, and we, but Dover did. Uh, it's in the uh Why did they give it up? It's in the minutes back in the '50s. Basically, uh, back, we had around like 5,000 people

Roy Sudler, Jr.

in the city back then. We just weren't getting cases. Quite frankly, there were no cases

Andre M. Boggerty

Mhm.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

for the the court. That That's not true, and it well, will not be true anymore. There will be cases, for sure. Judge?

Judge

I'll just make a couple of general comments. Uh, from a legal standpoint, you can probably do this. It'll take time to build a program, get a judge's handbook prepared. You can get all this from the state courts. You know? They will, I'm sure they will advise give you all the information you need to set up the court. But it's going to cost money, so you have to do a cost-based analysis, basically. But you need to understand You need What you need to do The problem, as I understand, the problem is a lot of these small, minor cases, which speeding, trespassing, small, you know, bodily crimes, are not being prosecuted. And the reason why they're not being prosecuted is because, often times, they are connected with a more serious case. In In my experience, in the Superior Court, the Court of Common Pleas, very often these cases, they dismiss the small stuff right off the bat. So it never You never get them concluded. You never can draw any, uh, any revenue from these cases, and they're easily dismissed by the other courts. So I think, in my view, I think you'll find favorable review of this by the Superior Court and Court of Common Pleas, because they really don't want to deal with these kinds types of cases. They want to deal with the more serious, uh, misdemeanors, felony cases. Because that's what That's what they're designed to treat. So that That would be It would be beneficial on that basis. But you have to understand, you have to estimate what kind of revenue are you going to generate from this to support this type of system? And it took 10 years, I think, for Newark, I don't know how long it took them to start

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right.

Judge

showing that they can pay back for the capital improvements they had to make to establish these courts. I don't have any idea. I assume you picked Newark because it was a similar size as Dover. Right. And so it probably would not be beneficial to contact the smaller courts. It'd be probably beneficial to probably contact Rehoboth Beach, maybe New Castle County, I think they've got a court, and get their views, perspective. I've talked to some of the judges already in the Newark courts. I understand how they operate. But uh, uh, and, as I said, from a legal standpoint, you could probably do this with a proper enabling legislation that you have to get from the, from the state. Yeah. First of all, Newark is successful because they get DUI jurisdiction. And the And the And they bring in probation before judgment authority. That is That is a major part of their revenue. You have to have that to make this court work. Uh,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

work.

Judge

Yeah. And uh the other thing is, as many of you know, that I'm very involved with veterans. I helped found the first veterans court in Delaware, uh which we expanded statewide, made a statewide court. In fact, it was the the first court of its kind in the nation. But there are a lot of veterans in this city. And uh I know the veterans court could could directly help you make You know, if you had a court that could refer veterans who were charged with small, smaller violations, breaches of ordinances and so forth, you could set it up so they would go directly to the veterans court, because the veterans court can offer you all kinds of social relief. In other words, we have programs associated with our partner, the federal government, who provide treatment for mental health issues, treatment for substance abuse issues, and uh code diagnoses, as well. So that would help a lot, city of Dover a great deal, because we get these people enrolled in in proper programs, also who get them uh uh, not just the necessary health care, but also get them housing and so forth. And that would be very helpful to the city of Dover. So I I see great value in doing that. But, of course, it comes down, based on the cost involved here and and how how holy

Judge

city of Dover can afford to finance this thing, because I'm not sure it's going to generate enough revenue to pay for itself for a couple of years. Right. That would be my concern.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

In the very beginning. Yeah, in the very beginning, right. And the um uh and could we Now Now, of course,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

now, in our enabling legislation, we could also um have the ability to refer not only to Veterans Court, but to Drug Court. Is that correct?

Judge

Drug Court and DUI Courts. Believe it or not, you may not be aware of this, there used to be a uh court for uh prostitutes. Really? Yeah. They called it Prostitution Court, but

Judge

it didn't last very long. It was in the Court of Common Pleas. They just The council of of courts decided it was not a good idea to do, and they generally conceived so with their problems all with the other other courts, because most other people like that, streetwalkers, they've got other issues that we need to focus on. If we solve those issues, we'll solve that problem.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Like Like uh substance uh use disorder?

Judge

Yeah, that's what we call a specialized court. Mhm. And and if you're deemed as legislated from small, we need courts with smaller jurisdiction like this, the uh fines, and so forth, we set uh partnerships with all these various courts who refer these cases to those courts. Uh, as well, I I see I see great value in in the future.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I do too, right? Because we all these people who are being ignored, and some of them literally dying on the streets, um, could actually we could actually help them. Um, that I agree with you, Judge, but thank you for your insight. Now, may I ask, for the record, and please forgive me,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

but may I ask, how many years of experience have you had in the uh Superior Court? Uh,

Judge

23 years.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. And uh and you're also um um you're a fellow veteran of of Afghanistan? I'm No, I didn't

Judge

go to Afghanistan. I was mobilized, but I never went.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Oh, okay. And did you Did you ever Because they were trying to send you to help set up court systems, did did that happen with Iraq, or they just mobilized you, and didn't

Judge

Well, uh it's a It's kind of a longer story. In fact, I'm doing some research, I'm going to write an article about this, but I don't want to get people's uh, they're good professors, they're very good Yeah, that's what

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I say. He's a good writer.

Judge

back in 1991, in the first part of the first Gulf War, you know, we had a major operation here in Dover. The 261st Signal Command was stationed here. And it was the only signal command of its kind in the reserve units. It was headed by a two-star general. When they mobilized for for Iraq, they were They would have mobilized the entire 261st Signal Command. That's why I was part of the mobilization. But the Active Army decided they did not want a reservist general to run what was, in effect, the J6, that's the, in charge of communications in the theater. So they, they, they demobilized us. And they, they, they pulled out units from various other uh US Army units, a lot from the 8th Air Force, hey, not the 8th the 8th Army Command in, in, in Korea. And it was a mis- mismatch, and the, and the communications broke down rapidly in in Iraq, and it was a disaster.

Judge

Now we, now we worked out an agreement with the Reserve Forces, and hopefully, one Army now, one Right.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And that that's why uh uh it worked so much better when we went to Afghanistan, because the whole 198th ran the whole segment, the half the country, and instead of mismatching it like that.

Judge

In the first Gulf War, they didn't do that. So you're right. Thank you. Judge, thank

Roy Sudler, Jr.

you. Uh, uh, I'm going to move on, because we we could talk uh war stories for a long I'm not going to do that today. Dr. Hoff Dr. Hoff.

Dr. Hoff

Well, I know there's some folks that want to uh add to our discussion, and uh, I'll, I'll just uh repeat what I've said before. I think, I agree with the judge, in, on the legality of the proposal. Uh, they did a lot of research into the history of aldermen's, as they say, dating back into colonial times, and uh, just in, you know, Delaware and, and Pennsylvania as well, you know, are good examples of uh, of uh, geographical, proximate areas that had, and that uh, and, as far as Delaware, it still does in those six uh, uh, jurisdictions. Um, I was confused by the opening, because I was looking at the ne- necessity from taking away the overwhelming increase in cases coming to the local JP Court. So, in my view, the argument for necessity has to be uh, taking something out of that uh, it from that perspective. But what I've heard is that this is completely different and, and perspectively limited to uh, drug or mental health-type offenses. But I, I think that the issue of necessity has to be clarified, and I, I think the argument can still be, even if you're going to completely go from all the areas that the JP deals with, which alderman usually is a leftover or spillover for, I still think it's a good argument to say that this is being proposed as uh, because of the overwhelming increase in the caseload of the JP Court, of the local JP Court.

Judge

Mhm.

Dr. Hoff

Um, now that, as I said, and so I, I, I think it is necessary. But, again, I, I just have to be stark. I have to be honest with colleagues who I respect very much. Um, the political feasibility is, is the question, starting with a charter change. Um, Judge mentioned that, you know, we should stick to Newark uh in uh examples. I, I believe that we should look at the other five examples. I believe that we should look at Pennsylvania cities that had alderman court that got rid of it. Cities like Philly, Pittsburgh, Reading, Allentown, and Harrisburg. So, you know, look at ask the questions from both sides. Why did you get rid of these within the last generation? Uh, not just, you know, what what's the positive thing? Um, the cost and, and Councilman Lewis is always there with uh, with intelligent and cogent questions on cost. And I, and, and I think that those are still going to have to be continued to be answered. With all due respect, I think, you know, the confidence in the leadership of the city is under question now, and this is going to have to be done in the context of improving the uh, standard of living and, and living of uh, residents in the city. It has to be argued from and, and, and promoted from that perspective. And finally, the my last question, as part of this political feasibility issue, is is this the right solution for what you want to do? Is this the right solution? I was part of the Kent County uh Justice Center back in the '90s that took cases out of the courts and mediated them as a way to reduce the load of the courts and have a win-win situation, because the defendant got to essentially negotiate his or her punishment. And so, you know, and, and very few times you came out of those with unsuccessful mediation. So I think there are other ways to go about solving the issue of dealing with this, the particular perspective that uh, that uh, uh Council President Neil is coming from in, in, in arguing for this, as well as the uh perspective of of how it's normally argued, which is taking uh uh cases out of the JP, where it's necessary. And it is necessary now with the uh increases that we've seen in JP 16 relative to past years, and relative to other JP courts in the, in the state.

Judge

JP 16 covers

Dr. Hoff

Do- Dover.

Judge

Yeah.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh Doc uh Good, you're recognized.

Judge

Uh I am aware, and that because of recent legislation in the legislature, that uh create more issues with respect to crimes which are See what The marijuana laws changed possession of marijuana, basically, to a civil to be a civil issue. Judge uh Davis, who's the the head of the uh JP courts, has expressed to me some dismay because he he doesn't

Alan Garfinkel

have enough judges to handle what he believes to be an onslaught of these types of cases. They're loaded right now. They're loaded right now. So they're going to, I've been put on notice that they may they may start hiring retired judges to help alleviate the workload. I'm not going to ask to do that, but that could come, I suppose. But so, as I said, I think they the JP courts would be would be hopeful and praise you for attempting to do this, because it might alleviate their caseload to some extent.

David L. Anderson

And that would, of course, uh, help politically as well. Um, and if we, uh, I think that's talking with, uh, the JP court, maybe something on a future agenda to get their perspective. Um, I think that's a very, very good point, gentlemen. Thank you. Uh, thank you very much.

David L. Anderson

Now, let's have public uh, uh, comment. If we only have one member of the public, the floor is yours, sir.

Eric Faust

Um, we speak as private citizens?

David L. Anderson

Yes, yes. And um, it's Mr. Faust, yeah, for the record.

Eric Faust

Eric Faust from Dover. One, I'm going to be a roadblock. Having a committee meeting at 3:00 p.m. for such an important issue does not give the citizens opportunity to get input, and we should be able to give input. Some of the key things are my concerns: What about parking?

Eric Faust

Two, it's already been said, I believe Council President Neil said, the JP uh the Alderman's Court closed up because it wasn't a moneymaker. This city cannot afford to have another branch of functioning not making money.

Eric Faust

Two, if it get appealed to another court, you're not going to get any funds.

Eric Faust

Three, security. If something kicks off, you're not prepared for the security. I've been in corrections. I've been inside courts and holding cells where it gets bloody. You're not set up for that.

Eric Faust

And lastly, we have parking tickets already now, so we have Alderman's Court, you're going to add this fee and that fee. Our taxpayers are being burdened with the increase over the past couple years on utility bills, fees, and everything else. A lot of people are going to think this is just another way the city's trying to get revenue to support something they want. Perception is what it looks like. People don't have confidence. If you can't make money, what good is it?

Eric Faust

I mean, I don't mean to sound frustrated, but I mean the bottom line is the court failed before. It failed for a reasons. And the professor, forgot your name, sir, Professor Huff, said as other states closed down. Well, there's got to be a reason why other big states are doing away with the Alderman's Court and we're trying to bring something back. It doesn't seem feasible with everything going up. Where are you going to get the seed money? You were $7 million in debt until you cut the budget. Where are you going to get the money for start-up costs for security, wanding, metal detectors, the vests, all that? If we just got enough to get by, where are you going to come up with all this money to get started? Probably cost you probably half a million dollars or better to get situated.

Committee Member

I tell you what, if it only takes a half a million to make this city better, it's freaking worth it. Because people like me are ready to get the hell out of here, and I and I assure you I bring money into this city. And if we don't do something about our low-level offenses, we're we're doomed. Our property values are going to go down, tax dollars are going to go down.

Eric Faust

I agree with you, but we've got to do it the smart way. We've got to be wise what we're doing. If we're putting the cart before the horse, and it's going to set up for violating someone's civil rights, or it's going to be found to be not backed up, people are going to leave. People don't feel safe walking down the streets. I mean, we've got gun violence. I mean, okay, you got someone speeding, speeding's important, I'm more concerned about the violent crimes like the drug addiction, the gangs, the shootings. That scares the bejeebies out of me, and I used to be an ER tech and I saw a lot when I was in the ER. I saw a lot of things in 20 years of corrections. Let's be smart. Let's be wise. I'm not saying I have all the answers, but our city's hurting. We're not bringing revenue in. If you go around this city, every few blocks you see businesses that are closed up. The state has to pay for, uh, give grants to the, uh, casinos to keep them afloat. I came from a state where they promised, uh, Atlantic City, oh, casinos are going to help with the education and the senior citizens. That never happened. Uh, riverfront Camden, they brought the aquarium and the, uh, battleship New Jersey there. They got rid of the state, uh, prison. Hate to tell you, I go visit Camden County because it's my hometown. I don't go into Camden because I'm scared to death, and nothing scares me too much. So we have to be wise. Perception of the citizens is like zero confidence.

David L. Anderson

Well, thank you. Um, now next we have somebody online. Uh, Dawn, uh, did you have anything you wanted to add?

Dawn

No, I'm just excited to learn more and thank you for allowing me to be a part of it.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Didn't want to ignore you because you're over on online and I hope you enjoy your vacation. Thanks for thanks for taking time out of your vacation to join us.

Dawn

No problem.

Committee Member

And uh This this thing like this is so far out, we have to do something now, like the doc here. We must do something now, you know. It's we're we're in trouble today. And I'm right downtown every day that I'm in Dover, and it's it's terribly bad, terribly bad. I'm telling you, it's getting like It's almost going to get near like Oakland soon if we don't do something now. So, uh, we have to have some type of game plan, uh, in the midst of trying to finalize this plan.

David L. Anderson

I don't disagree. Uh, I don't disagree with that at all. I mean, obviously, if we don't start today, 2 years from now we're going to be saying, man, I wish we did something 2 years ago, we could have been rolling. So we we need to start today. Um, I'd like to have started a year ago, but we we're not there, we have to start today. But but you're right. You're 100% right. And um, and uh you're a person who's offered solutions, and we're going to keep talking. Uh, is there no other business? Uh, we have a public com uh Representative?

Representative

I don't have much, um, that hasn't already been said. I do just want to flag for logistics pieces that, um, you don't have If if this was something that you decided to go forward with, you don't have to take on all forms of cases, uh, especially, um, as you're going to build a facility, etc. So you might have to use buildings that are already available, you can start with one type of caseload. For instance, last year we passed for Newark they added on marijuana cases, they didn't have that prior. So you could slowly, um, move into, uh, an expanded caseload, um, when you don't have that. I do have the same concerns around costs, uh, what that would look like. Building costs are just going up and up and up. Um, and there already is, you know, somewhat limited space, uh, generally. But, you know, if if this is the direction that you guys want to go, there is there is that piece where the state has too heavy of a caseload, and I can see how people would feel like that would be helpful, um, but warning that, um, you know, even as we're saying, it will take a while to get enough of a revenue to even break even. You know, if if things are going well, and we're making improvements in the spaces that we want to make improvements, you could see a decrease and then you'll have costs that are just sustaining because that funding is not coming through. And if that And if we're not seeing, um, revenues drop, that means we're failing in other spaces, uh, because people are still reoffending in the same, um, areas.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Thank you very much.

Yvonne

And you're expecting those, uh, offenders to pay, the low-level people to pay these fines, where are they going to get it? I'm asking a question. Like real talk.

David L. Anderson

Well, and the answer is

Yvonne

Cause that's what we're relying on, right?

David L. Anderson

Well, absolutely the way people pay traffic tickets now, they're going to pay then, you know, they In other words, that's those things won't change, um, that way. They're going to pay them one way or the other.

Yvonne

versus the panhandlers, right? And those are the people that you want to pay the bill. So where do you expect for them to get the money from to pay for the fines when they're supporting drugs, you said?

Committee Member

I think well, see, I think that's a great part. But what

David L. Anderson

Right, right.

Committee Member

what I mean is, and Yvonne, we've had a lot of conversations about this. I see this as an entry point, you know, which and in so many levels, because, you know, as far as money goes, if someone's not able to pay, there's community service. And and if you have more if you have, you know, repeat offenses, you could say, "Listen, you have you have the ability to go see drug, you know, substance abuse, uh, where you're going to do X amount of time with community service." And and and I think, you know, that's where the the beauty is, because we could we could help design it a little bit more open and not necessarily penalize them from finance.

Yvonne

I hear you, but that's we're talking about the financials.

David L. Anderson

That's why this But that's why this is superior, in my view, to our current code, because our current code was designed basically in the 1920s and relies fine, fine, fine, and that's our authority. With this, we have the ability to We will, if we define it right, like they said, to re- refer people to drug court, to put people refer people to veterans court, to do community ser- In other words, we will have a probation before judgment, etcetera, and provide and direct people to services. Um, it gives us other options. You know, but the the revenue is going to come from, you know, the traffic ticket, it's going to come from the parking ticket, it's going to come from, you know, that type of thing, that the revenue is not coming from necessarily a person who is, uh, aggressive panhandling. Um, you know, that's not where we're counting on revenue coming from.

Yvonne

I feel you. It was just the perception how it all came out.

David L. Anderson

But but that's why but that's why we want that's why we're taking the time to have this type of open conversation, because when we shape this, we want it shaped right so we can have a proposal that's actually going to work. Because I know I'm a busy person, I know you all are. Um, and um, you know, I was I was going to uh tease a street magistrate, state former state magistrate, uh, Garfinkel over there and say not not stepped in for him, he's found uh He's retired, you know, but he he does a whole bunch of things after he's retired. But, but this is important and and that's why we wanted a diverse diverse voices at the table so that we get this so that we can get the objectives and that we get a system that has accountability, that has compassion, and that has effectiveness. And if we can achieve all three of those, we can do something really good in our city.

Male Speaker

involuntary commitment, which makes them face the fact that they've got to have help.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right.

Male Speaker

You just can't leave them not have help. So what are you going to do? You're going to say you can do? Then you're enabling them to...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Of course, of course that...

Male Speaker

...take a trend that dangerous or...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Of course, of course.

Female Speaker

I understand. All I'm saying is change the wording, because then it becomes into a legal situation.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And personally, personally I think those type of issues uh need to be referred like to the drug court, to your Common Pleas to Superior Court, you know, and the because they're they're competent to handle that based on the law. But a lot of that's not even happening, they're not even being referred now, and that's the problem. Um you know, we have laws in existence, but we're not referring people because the cases are just being dismissed. Yes, sir.

Brian E. Lewis

I I think my my opinion as far as if you're going to utilize this court in any way to commit people into psychiatric uh hospitals uh or drug treatment centers, you're treading in uncharted waters because I don't know if the JP courts can even do that now. My understanding is, and this was speaking with Judge Witham, is that Superior Court judges uh generally commit uh offenders that need psychiatric evaluations uh into those facilities. So you're you're treading um like I said into uncharted waters because you know, you're you're violating people's constitutional rights doing something like that. And I can give you an example, coming from uh Jersey, years ago uh they used to allow municipal court judges up there, it was called a um an MCO, municipal court order, where they would commit somebody for 30 days into a psychiatric facility.

Brian E. Lewis

They took that away from municipal court judges, and they revised the system where if you had a psychiatric a person, you know, with uh you know, bizarre behavior, uh they would um contact a psychiatrist, and a psychiatrist had to get involved at that point with the police department, where they just couldn't commit them like they used to. So that's something that is kind of concerning, and, you know, Mr. Neil had brought that up in his summation at the beginning.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, well what I what I want to say to that is uh what we're talking about is the ability to refer.

Brian E. Lewis

I'm fine with referral, but I'm not fine with committing. A city could never do that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I I agree with you. I agree with you. I agree with you. I I agree with you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And we we refer we want to refer to drug court. We find those type of situations, we want to refer them to Superior Court. In other words, when we find those situations, because we're not going to take that, because when you're here, you don't have jury trial, you don't have, you know In other words, there's certain things that that people have certain rights, and they that need to be heard in a constitutional court. And we're not, but we want the right to refer people so that those situations are dealt with. Refer them to a constitutional court.

Male Speaker

Or voluntary. Or voluntary as a form of type of what they can choose as a form of plea.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah. As part of their probation, or or or to avoid punishment. So as part of their probation before that that they can choose like, yeah, I need help.

Male Speaker

Mention that. Yeah. Options. Right. First step.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And that could be a part that could be an option for probation, you know, in that people can avoid punishment and avoid jail as part of probation before judgment, is what it's called. Um anyway, is there um any other...

Male Speaker

Move to adjourn.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

There's no other business? We stand adjourned. Thank you. Thank you all for coming.