Transcript: Code Board of Appeals Meeting

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I now call to order the Code Board of Appeals. Is there a motion to adopt the agenda?

Fred A. Neil

Yeah, so moved.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury seconds.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It's been properly moved by Council President Neil to adopt the agenda, and seconded by Councilwoman, uh, Dr. Pillsbury. Is there any question on the motion?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Hearing none, all those in favor, please state by saying aye.

Fred A. Neil

Aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Those opposed, please state by saying nay.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right. Motion has been unanimously adopted.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Item number 1, the Dover Code Ordinance Violation 2009, 2009 International Property Maintenance Code Chapter 22, Building and Building Regulations, Article 10, Rental Dwellings, Division 1, Generally, Section 22-332, Inspection Required. Appeal of citation and related fines, 172 Stony Drive, Ying Chu.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Madam Clerk Wheeler, have we heard from Mr. Ying Chu in regards to whether or not he will be attending this hearing today?

Speaker 1

I have tried to contact him.

Chair

Thank you very much for doing that and going the extra mile. Seeing that Mr. Yingchu is not here, maybe we will give him 5 minutes. It is now 3:32. We will wait till 3:37. If he does not show, then we will move forward with the pleasure of the committee. We'll give him a 5-minute grace period.

Wheeler

So I received his appeal by mail. Um, I and then I received um documentation from Mr. Miller, his um mailing address and a phone number. I have contacted him by phone number and I left him voicemails. He has not contacted me by phone. I did send him a letter by mail letting him know that the appeal was today. I have not heard anything back from him. So, that is...

Speaker 2

Do you want to re-enter the record at that time?

Chair

No, we'll just keep we'll stay on the record.

Chair

Actually, what we'll do in the meanwhile, um let's hear from code enforcement uh for your position on the matter and then and then and then go from there. Um and now we turn to Chief Inspector Eddie Kopp uh and if you're I don't know if you'll be doing the briefing or you will direct uh one of your subordinates to...

Fred A. Neil

Nothing wrong with that. Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So, the recommendation will be for the staff recommendation will be for denial of appeal. I'm just going to write this down just as staff recommendation denial of appeal.

Eddie Kopp

Just for the record, Eddie Kopp, Chief Code Enforcement Officer. Uh on behalf of Code Enforcement, it would be our recommendation that the appeal be denied due to the no-show of the uh the appellant. If you would like further presentation on the case, it is Thomas Miller's case, but it's our position that uh the appeal's not valid due to the appellant not being here.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Based on the no-show, no-call, yeah.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And according to the Clerk's office, he was properly notified.

Chair

Thank you for the reminder.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for that.

Eddie Kopp

Just want to throw it on the record and have it.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Second?

Speaker 4

Chair, chair, I'm waiting for the motion.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And and just for clarity, we're just uh getting your staff recommendation. So when we are prepared for a motion, I will read staff recommendation, and then if anything needs to be amended or added or accepted as is, then we'll go from there.

City Clerk

Okay.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Mm-mm.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Madam Clerk, please let me know when it's 3:37, please.

City Clerk

Okay.

Speaker 4

Does that say denial of what? Does that say denial of appeal?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, the chair recognizes Ms. Belinda Mane. Ms. Belinda Mane, just to give you a quick-- can you hear us? Signal if you can, a little hand raise.

City Clerk

I'm not sure.

Speaker 4

For the record, appeal.

City Clerk

Yes.

Belinda Mane

Yes, I can.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, we're just letting you know that Mr. Ying Chu is not present at this present moment. We are providing him with a grace period of 5 minutes, which will elapse after 3:37.

Belinda Mane

Gotcha.

Off Roy Sudler Jr

The staff recommendation for the record is to, for denial of the appeal, based on no-show, no-call, and also they were properly notified not only by the clerks, City Clerk's office, but also by the code, Code Enforcement division as well, department as well. Okay?

Belinda Mane

Um, I happen to definitely agree with that. Um, I have read over all the information and I do agree with code enforcement that even if he didn't get the first letter, he did sign for the certified letter, so the offer of of not continuing the fine would definitely be not a question of now he is responsible for that that fine.

City Clerk

It is 3:37.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for your feedback. It is now 3:37, it is now 3:37. Um, we have staff recommendation for denial of appeals based on--

Roy Sudler, Jr.

one no-show, no call, and the fact that he's been properly, Mr. Ying Chiu has been properly notified via certified, or via mail. The chair will entertain any motions from the committee?

Fred A. Neil

Neil will move to uphold the staff recommendation and deny the appeal.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury seconds.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It has been properly moved by Council President Neil to approve staff recommendations for denial of appeal. Has been properly seconded by Councilwoman Dr. Pillsbury. Is there any discussion on the motion? Hearing none-

Felinda Mayne

Um, I, I

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, the chair recognizes committee member Felinda Mayne. You have the floor, ma'am.

Felinda Mayne

Um, I do would like to know how else are we going to notify this gentleman that since he did not appear today, that he is now responsible and that the appeal of the fine is now null and void? How are we going to go about informing him if he can't show up to a meeting?

Chair

Thank you very much. Uh, Ms. Mann, are there any further questions?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Ms. Mayne, for your question. The chair is going to ask the Chief Code Enforcement Officer, Mr. Eddie Kopp, is there any extra measures beyond the mail? Are we able to go and post a notification on the door, or is that permissible?

Ms. Mann

Um, I I do. Is it possible—I know certified mail does cost a little bit, but um just to verify that he actually received the letter like we did at one particular time trying to get him to at least respond? Um, would that be an ideal, or an email that, you know, we have some type of like written um written path to say, 'Look, we've tried. We've done this, we've done that, we're done. This is now the consequence of you not responding to, you know, a letter that was on the mail or a letter that was in the mail,' um, but make it so that we actually know that he received the, you know, notice of now the fine is on you and you are responsible for paying it at a timely manner?

Eddie Kopp

So in accordance with code, he gets sent the notice will go out in the mail. In the event for us, in the event the notice is returned, then it's physically posted on the property only when it's returned.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Thank you.

Chair

Thank you, Ms. Mann, for your question. The chair recognizes uh Chief Inspector Eddie Kopp. If you will respond, is there any additional measures?

Eddie Kopp

No, by code we just have to send him notice. Um, I will uh add this to the record. He's aware of the requirement for an inspection, and as of today, no inspection has been scheduled. So even with this appeal going on, um the the whole reason why we're here is the inspection. It still, to date, has not been scheduled. Which, given the appeal, he is aware of the need for the inspection, which is what's being disputed. It is the the uh inspection, the scheduling of the inspection. So...

Ms. Maule

question. Is there any way to, um, since he is responsible for scheduling it, um, have we called to say, "Look, uh, you still have to have this property inspected or whoever is residing in this property, um, is not able to to be in this property until it had it has followed through with its full inspection?" Cuz if if something may happen, whoever is in that residence could either get hurt or or put expenses out of their own pocket that is not, you know, their responsibility, it's the owner of the property who needs to have this stuff done. So, is there, how are we going to that go about, you know, contacting them to say, "Look, we contacted you once, twice, third time. We had an appeal. It still needs to be inspected. You know, we we are reaching out now to you again by phone and saying, 'Look, this this is when we're going to show up at this property, and you have to make sure that you are present at this time.'" And without any doubt of giving him any alternative of, "Oh, what day are you good? What day what time are you good?" It has to be like, you know, mandated of, "We're going to be here on this day. If you are not here, then we are revoking what we have to revoke as code enforcement or or the city or whoever needs to invoke what needs to be invoked, along with the additional fines for the amount of time it takes him to schedule that inspection."

Chair

Thank you. What would be the next Uh, Ms. Mann, are there any further questions?

Ms. Mann

Um, yes. Kopp did say that he still has not had the inspec—

Kevin

continue with citations. We can't remove the tenant, that would be an eviction. So although the, the owner hasn't complied with our inspection requests, it's not enough to remove, physically remove the tenant from the property. Um, but the citations will occur on a monthly basis. He'll continue to incur citations. Um, and then in reference to the phone call, phone call is hearsay, and it would be hearsay if this matter went to a court of law, which is why we must send everything, um, via first class and certified mail, it's tangible, there's proof of it. Um, I I get the good-faith effort with, um, with the phone call, but when it comes down to consistency with the average of 5,000 cases a year that we do, we would have to call every single person, um, to be consistent with that, and it's just not possible. And then, again, when it goes to court it's hearsay because it's our word against theirs, did we make the phone call or did we not, so.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh thank you, Ms. Maule, for your question. I think at this point we've done all we could do, and I think the next step, if I'm not mistaken, uh would be either would it be condemning the unit or or

City Staff

So, we would con-

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, Kevin.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, Ms. Mann. Sounds like we've done all that we could do at this point. Yes, ma'am.

Audience Member

and you guys are going to be present at that at that moment.

Ms. Mann

One more thing is the the next letter, since you said everything has to be by paper, would be you placing, well, code enforcement if they have an opening in their schedule, to put a a notation saying, 'We are going to be at this property at this time. This is the last and final opportunity before fines continue to to stack up. This is the time we're going to be here. If you are not going to be present, then we're going to continue to to fine as long as, you know, code enforcement has to or whatever in order to resolve the issue.' But to place a time, since he's not calling to make a time, to give him a time of when

City Staff

Again we can only do what's in accordance with code that would be in violation of landlord-tenant code which is covered by state law. We have no enforcement mechanism to enforce Delaware State Law nor can we violate the Delaware State Law or violate landlord-tenant code as the city of Dover code official. We must follow the written ordinances and laws and we can't veer away from that.

Andre M. Boggerty

So that's not that's not permissible. Yeah.

City Staff

We can't do that. We're not that authority.

Audience Member

Okay.

Chairperson

Does that conclude your questions?

Audience Member

Yes. It does.

Chairperson

Okay. Any other other questions? Hearing none, all those in favor please say by saying aye. Aye. Those opposed, please say by saying nay. It's been unanimously adopted, the the ayes have it.

Chairperson

Okay, if any further business of the Code Board of Appeals? Seeing seeing there's no further business. Yes?

Audience Member 2

I just have one question.

City Staff

repair. That would be a that would be a direct violation of landlord-tenant code. Um so we can send notice, and that's why we send an inspection request. That way it takes us completely out of any issue with landlord-tenant code. It's the owner's responsibility to schedule the inspection. Therefore, if he doesn't notify his tenant of said inspection, it's not us. It's it's solely on the owner and we're not in breach of any um state law or regulation.

Mary Anne

But my question is, I don't see an end point.

Andre M. Boggerty

I can I can probably, so I I can I can address that, Mary Anne. And you can correct me if I'm wrong. I think the end point is after a certain period of citations, let's say they have reached $5,000 of citations. The city can say, okay, we want to collect our $5,000. They send out a notice, if you don't pay this $5,000 within a certain time period, we're going to put a lien on your property. If you don't pay that $5,000 and the lien within that certain period of time, now your property is going up to the sheriff sale. That's would most likely be that end point and they'll be like, oh, you're not going to Am I Am I wrong?

City Staff

That would be ideal, that that would be forthcoming. Um it's not that way now.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

when I said we need to get all these discrepancies that we're learning from these cases to compile a new plan of action and also some training.

Andre M. Boggerty

Oh, it's not? I know it used to be that way.

City Staff

Yeah, it's not that way the way the code's written, but that's something um I'm working--

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Code enforcement. Right, right.

Mary Anne

So, what is the code currently? I mean, it sounds like you don't really have any end point.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Did you want to discuss that at all on the record?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Well, I just wanted to let everyone know that currently, I'm reviewing the cases and a lot of the discrepancies. Madam Clerk Wheeler has been gracious enough to compile that so that we as a committee can go over it with Code Enforcement and figure out some new strategies for additional best practices in which we have now to add to the practices that we have now. So that would be forthcoming and I'm looking for doing something like that maybe September, mid-September. So basically that's so I'm not gonna hold anyone hold everyone up now since we have a little time we can just but that's forthcoming. Thank you, Ms. Wheeler, for compiling that information.

City Staff

No, we just issue citations till they schedule.

Andre M. Boggerty

Would Would that Okay, would that amount ever accrue? Um would that be Wouldn't that be added to their their taxes? Their property-- No, not even with that?

City Staff

Not the way the code is written now.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay, we definitely need to work on that then.

City Staff

Yeah.

Andre M. Boggerty

And that's what we were talking about, this will--

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Is there any further business? Okay, everyone. Thank you very much everyone for being here. Ms. May? Yes, yes, ma'am.

Tisha May

I did have one more question to feed off Ms. Pillsbury's, when she said is this ever going to end? Well, the end point you said would be, you know, taking it further and then the end point would be sheriff sale. Well, in the process of the sheriff sale, and the resident is still in the tenant is still living in the property, then you'd be kicking the tenant out of the property in order to sell it under sheriff sale. And when I said the letter to be placed on an avenue of, okay, we are in this area at this time, make yourself known, let the tenant know 48 hours or whatever, but give a time frame of we have somebody right in here on this day and let him give a response of is or is this

Speaker 1

suitable for you to let your tenant know 48 hours that we need to come and inspect property. So it it wasn't necessarily a a letter saying we're going to break down the door and look at the property. It was for the owner of the property to say, 'Look, they're going to be in the area. I, you know, more motivation of giving a call of when, you know, a time frame.' Cuz I know they all don't just stay in, you know, they all just don't go all around the city. They they do stay in one area one day and then focus on another area another day. Just coordinate, kind of like send him, 'We're going to be in your area,' and and give like, 'in the next two weeks. Can you call and make an appointment in the next two weeks and then inform your uh tenant 48 hours prior to when you're planning on scheduling this? Because, you know, we've already sent you three notices. The fines are going to keep continue stacking up till you call. Well, we're we're pushing out that I can guarantee this going to keep going and keep going and keep going until a sheriff's sale happens, and then the tenant's going to be, you know, without a place to live.'

Speaker 2

Good point well taken. If I could real quick, just just for clarification, sheriff's sale does not displace a tenant. It just transfers the ownership, so the tenant would would sell with the property. It doesn't necessarily say, 'Oh hey, you can't be here.' That's only an eviction. Yeah. So, the tenant would stay in place. And we see it a lot. Now granted, will the new owner evict them? More likely, 90% of the time, that's what we see. So, but it doesn't necessarily mean the tenant would be...

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And maybe and maybe that's something we could um put in on the agenda for to review so we get more additional information.

Female Speaker

That's all I had, thank you.

Chair

You're welcome.

Chair

All right. I guess we are adjourned. Thank you, everyone, for being here tonight.

Speaker 2

Thank you. See you.