Transcript: Historic District Commission Meeting

Chair

25-07, revised number two, the Old Post at 55 Loockerman Plaza.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Give me a moment, I'm getting paperwork adjusted.

Chair

Yeah, there's a lot of paperwork up here today, so excuse us.

Dawn Melson-Williams

All right. Uh, so today we actually have a, one of those projects that is, uh, revisiting you, and, um, this is HI-25-01. It's actually revision number two, um, focused on the Old Post at 55 Loockerman Plaza. Um, most of us know it as the old Dover post office site, located just east of, um, east of here. Uh, this property, um, previously, initially appeared before the Historic District Commission, um, for a consideration of its architectural review certification, um, back in February of 2025.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh, and then later that same year, in November of 2020, there was the, um, first revision to the, the project that made some changes to, uh, what was proposed at the, the rear of the building. Um, today it is revisiting, um, the Historic District Commission and will also be, uh, your recommendation forwarded to the Planning Commission for their meeting next week, um, regarding the most recent proposed change for the, the project. Um, as we, as we refer to it as, um, revised, uh, number, revision number two or revised number two, uh,

Dawn Melson-Williams

what it does is propose demolition of the existing building in its entirety. Uh, the original, uh, proposal was to demolish the rear portion of the building, the kind of the warehouse, mail-sorting, um, portion of the building while retaining the front, um, segment of the building, uh, due to what the applicant has detailed out in, um, their uh, construction plans. Uh, they're now seeking to demolish the building in its entirety and then reconstruct the front portion of the building,

Dawn Melson-Williams

um, with the, uh, basically the same look of the, um, the series of columns and the central elements there. Uh, they are, uh, proposing to, as, um, they had previously done, add the second-floor additions to the wings of the front of the building. Um, that was what you, part of what you reviewed back in November of last year. Uh, so basically, we would end up with a building that is in the same footprint that has been previously, um, approved. Uh, it would consist of this really kind of two-story with roof, um, front portion of the building, and then the rear portion of the building remains as the four-story, um,

Dawn Melson-Williams

construction where we find most of the apartment units that are proposed for this project. Um, with this, uh, revision, uh, to reconstruct the front of the building, uh, there's also an opportunity to, because of floor-to-floor heights will now actually be more in alignment, um, they can pick up three additional apartment units, uh, even within the same building footprint as what was previously approved. So it would bring the project to a total of 45 residential apartment units. Um, the other key element of the revision before you today, uh, is focused on the exterior, uh, surface materials that are proposed for the project.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um, staff has provided an architectural review staff report on this revision number two, and, um, it continues to provide some basic information as well as history of the property, um, and the, um, kind of previous actions and review of it. Uh, if you look at page 4 of that report, um, where it describes specifically the project proposal, um, the key elements are the fact of the full demolition of the building and then reconstruction of, um, the existing front part portion of the building plus those wing additions as we, um, see the building today.

Dawn Melson-Williams

The element of the changes related to exterior surfaces are described in items, um, 2 and 3. Uh, there's a number of, of course, uh, trim work and other detailing that will be also replicated in the new construction. Um, the, um, gable roof remains the same, with the rear addition being the flat roof system with a heavy cornice at the roof line. Uh, the revised-to plan, very specifically, um, is looking to make use of a brick EIFS system,

Dawn Melson-Williams

um, which is a wall surface, uh, system rather than the use of, um, what we would call formal brick, or brick-brick, as I refer to it. Um, and some of that is related to, the request to utilize that is related to, um, construction techniques and ways to lighten the load of the building on the ground it sits on. Um, that same kind of brick and brick, uh, wall system would be utilized on the rear addition. Uh, the other elements of the site, uh, the parking lot that's proposed that wraps the west and north sides of the building, um, does continue in the same format. Uh, the building rear wing is flanked by garden areas that have walkways and a lot of the landscape plantings.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um, there are sidewalk systems on the building, um, and its surroundings as well. Uh, when what you are charged with is making a recommendation on the architectural review certificate for this, um, location, that charges you to look at the design standards and guidelines. Um, there are specific guidelines for consideration of demolition as well as elements to consider when new construction is being proposed. Um, our report actually goes on to detail some of your previous reviews on this application, but on page 11 is the staff comments and recommendations. Um, staff is recommending conditional approval of the revision, uh, to this architectural review certificate,

Dawn Melson-Williams

um, which would include the demolition of the building in its entirety, um, and its reconstruction to replicate the current front facade plus the second-story addition on the wings, um, are as well as use of the brick finish EIFS system, um, finding that that can readily replicate, at least visually, to, um, the use of brick, but, uh, the system is a lot lighter. Some of our conditions are noted, um, in our comments, uh, noting to be very clear about what that brick material, um, system is in color, in size, and format. I think we'll hear from the applicant today more details about that.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um, clearly focusing on the details of the the cornice line, um, and some of the other details of the building, um, and the applicant can address any of those questions that, uh, that you may have as well. Um, so again, this is a revision. Uh, specifically, the the two things are demolition of the building in its entirety and reconstruction, um, to match the existing, um, and the exterior finish, uh, material system that is being proposed. Uh, the Historic District Commission, um, your deliberations are subject to a public hearing this afternoon. You will be making a recommendation, and it will move on to Planning Commission for their own public hearing and then final action on the architectural review certificate as part of their site plan review.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So, Mr. Chair, we do have representatives of the project, uh, team here with us, uh, today. I'm not sure who's going to take the lead. I think it's going to be Sal. Um, I do I do want to to note for the commission, um, that since, uh, you last saw this project, um, sadly, um, Mr. Frank DiMondi has passed, um, but the, uh, remaining project team is pushing forward with an exciting piece here for downtown. Um, so I think Sal was here the last time and has brought some samples and some, number of things for us to kind of consider, uh, in their request today.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So, if you introduce yourself for the record and try to talk directly into that microphone.

Sal Leoni

Thank Thank you, Dawn. Appreciate it. My name is Sal Leoni. I'm with FAD Management and the team from Old Post, LLC, that's going to be developing the project. Um, as Dawn said, there's really two reasons why, excuse me, we're here today, and that's for the demolition of the entire building, and also the use of EIFS. And this, both of these conditions came upon us after we did additional testing inside the building and found out that it's a very, very weak substructure underneath the building, and, um, the reports were suggesting that we have to use something called a rigid inclusion piling, which is bearing an additional approximately $375,000 in costs for the specialized footings for the building.

Sal Leoni

But what particularly came in the difficulty was bringing the old front of the building up to the new rear of the building. Leaving the front of the building, we would have to do diagonally drilled-in inclusion, rigid inclusion pilings, which were almost virtually impossible to do, and very unsafe. And as we were in there doing testing, and we cut a hole in the wall, which I'm sure you saw, to get some of the debris out, uh, some of the front of the brick started crumbling, and we've come to the conclusion that really the front is is very unsafe, and a lot of our demo contractors were just unsafe about leaving it there. So, we came up with the idea of just taking the whole thing down,

Sal Leoni

and rebuilding it exactly as it is today, only, obviously, much newer, much newer standards. And the second issue we had was with the use of the full-sized brick, it was just putting on so much weight to these rigid inclusions that, on the exterior of the building, if we went with the EIFS material, it would just lighten it up, uh, a lot, and just make it a much more kind of, I don't know exactly the term I'm looking for, but it was going to work out a lot better as far as weight of the building goes. So, um, we brought samples of the EIFS.

Sal Leoni

Um, the sample board itself is not the exact color, but the brick, that's one of the bricks from the post office, so the EIFS company matched the color, which is this right here. So if you just picture color on here, which isn't far off, um, that's what they're using, and I can bring it over if you want to.

Sal Leoni

And also, Mr. John Buckalew is here from EIFS to ask, or answer, any questions you have about the product, the system itself, if you want to speak with him.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Okay. So, Sal is walking around the sample, um, and I think the, uh, manufacturer rep, we'll call you, and Yep.

Chair

Yeah, if you can introduce yourself for the record.

John Buckalew

My name is John Buckalew. I'm with a company called Manning Materials. Um, I'm representing Dryvit EIFS systems.

Female Commissioner 1

I apologize, Sal. What is on on here is not what's in our packet. Um, the

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh there is a kind of a graphic representation set that I believe probably does not include that window. Um but as as noted by um member Richardson um keeping of the of the window, the multi-part window in the tympanum anyway, the triangle thing on the front of the building, at the top of the pediment. It it It has a very formal name, um which we had to look up. But

male speaker

Almost like a dormer.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Yeah, it's it's like a yeah, triangle dormer, we'll call it. Yeah.

male speaker

Dormers on top of the roof.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Yep. So, uh it is shown on that image. So, and I think they've the applicant has recognized that the the intent to um replicate that.

male speaker

Does anybody have any questions about the material? I know you're if you wanted to talk a little bit about the material itself or the sample that you showed me with the uh

male speaker

Sure. When you first spoke, um it was about weight. So, I'll mention about weight um and how an EIFS system um is far lighter than a traditional brick system. Where a traditional brick system is almost 50 lb per square foot uh, the EIFS system, which comprises over top of a sheathing, and that sheathing can be wood, or a gypsum-based sheathing, or even, you know, concrete or cementitious, uh has an air and vapor barrier, and then Styrofoam is glued with an adhesive in a vertical-notch ribbon configuration to give you a moisture drainage capability, all right? And then a lamina goes on top of it, which is base coat and mesh to give it strength. The decorative aspect of this project is to put in a what's known as a template to give you a brick veneer, which is what you have here in this sample.

male speaker

So, from the layman's point of view, from a distance, you're going to see what looks really like brick until you kind of tap on it. Now, this only weighs 2 1/2 lb per square foot. So, it's going to take a lot of pressure off of the structural integrity of the building. Also save a lot of money with concrete. Traditional brick systems that are available out there today, once you go past the second floor, you've got a lot of metal, a lot of other bells and whistles whistles. Uh they are considered not continuous insulation as well. This is CI, which means when you're cold, what do you do? You put a sweater on. This is like a sweater for the building. So the HVAC, heating and air throughout the course of the year will be reduced 30% to 40%.

female speaker

Huh.

female speaker

Now, is there a guarantee of how long that will last?

male speaker

Yes. There's uh an applicator that'll be awarded the project through FAD, which will be recognized by Dryvit to be able to install the product as per Dryvit's recommended installation procedures and guidelines. There is a 10-year warranty associated with that application, which is a performance warranty, which means if anything is found to be deficient in the Dryvit product, and it does cause damage to the building, Dryvit will back that up from the metal stud or wood stud, all the way out to the finish again. It will be a labor and material warranty. So, Dryvit does stand behind this EIFS system, as applied to this job and any other job as well.

female speaker

So what will the building look like 50 years from now?

male speaker

There's very little maintenance, okay? Also people worry about fading, okay? We have what's known as StratoTone pigments that go into the finish, which reduce the fading aspect of it. The only um maintenance for an EIFS system generally is the sealants and caulking around windows and doors, which would be typical in pretty much any type of a cladding system out there, whether it be brick, HardiePlank, Nichiha, cementitious siding, or some type of metal pan. Uh so, you know, you can get 30 to 40 years of very good use out of an EIFS system, with very little touch points as the years go on.

female speaker

All right, thank you.

female speaker

Yeah, I have a question on the how Are these sheets? Um how big are the sheets and how are they connected to each other?

male speaker

Good question. The foam, the Styrofoam is an EPS Styrofoam, and it comes in various thicknesses and you get 3.85 R-value per inch, so 2 in is almost an R-value of 8. What's great about continuous insulation is that you're now going to calculate the true R-value of your wall assembly. So in other words, when you build a building, you have to put insulation in between the studs. When you put brick up, there's called a thermal break, which is at every stud line. So when you put a thermal device on that, you see where all the heat's coming out, obviously through the windows and fenestrations as well. But when you put an EIFS system on, like I said, it's like putting a sweater on when you're cold. All those studs are now covered, so you're saving all that energy back into the building as opposed to being sucked out. That's what EIFS does. The Styrofoam goes up in a running bond pattern, and it's 2 ft x 4 ft, and it goes lengthwise in a running bond pattern like brick. So that before the base coat's applied to it, you can see how that foam was put up, not straight on, okay? And also around windows and fenestrations, you don't you picture frame, okay, with this the Styrofoam to give it strength. So, and the actual strength of the system is the base coat and mesh along with the finish coat.

female speaker

Okay, thank you.

male speaker

Hold on.

Dawn Melson-Williams

We're going to bring the microphone to you so we capture it. That's okay. We don't have show and tell all the time, so.

male speaker

Yes, absolutely.

male speaker

Okay. So, what you have is just like I said, it's your air and vapor barrier for the windows and doors, and then this is for the field, okay? This is a, like I said, an air and vapor barrier. It's not waterproofing. Then you have the foam, which is adhesively attached in a vertical-notch ribbon configuration to give you a drainage plane in case incidental moisture gets back behind the system, it drains out. Here is your EPS foam, and then you have what's known as a standard mesh. This is heavy-duty mesh for areas that may be high high traffic. It's optional, but it's here on the sample to show you that in case a golf ball hits it, it'll pretty much be, you know, resistant to that, or a shopping cart, or some type of light damage uh caused by a human being. And this is the finish coat, color and texture to be determined, which is what that aesthetic feature will be called custom brick. In that color to emulate the color of the original bricks on the existing building.

female speaker

And my my question, and this is really crazy, suppose somebody shoots a bullet into that?

male speaker

It's going to be penetrated. Just like you would penetrate a brick.

female speaker

All right.

male speaker

But it can be fixed.

female speaker

Okay. Would All right, you would have to replace the entire

male speaker

No, just the area that had the bullet hole in it.

female speaker

Okay. Because that's a possibility in Dover.

male speaker

In other words, if a truck

male speaker

Yeah, it can be fixed. So it is repairable. It's not permanent. In other words, you wouldn't have to tear off hundreds of square feet to fix a small dent in the in the EIFS. The contractor could come back, and will fix it.

female speaker

Okay.

female speaker

All right. Thank you.

female speaker

I Then I have a question on the on the joints. When the 4-ft panels come together,

male speaker

They butt together, yep.

female speaker

Right. Is there going to be a line there?

male speaker

No, it's it's actually covered by the base coat and the mesh. So you won't see that, okay? And it's done in a running bond configuration because these systems are flexible, so it'll flex with the building as it flexes. But remember, it's also extremely light, so it's not going to It's not structural. It's considered an exterior cladding.

female speaker

Okay.

female speaker

Okay. Thank you.

female speaker

I have a I have a question. Is there an Is there any building in Kent County which currently employs this finish?

male speaker

Uh you can walk down the street to the Aloft hotel. And that has this EIFS system all over it. You can go to any of the number of buildings at University of Delaware, that's not around here, we're currently involved in a project there, um but EIFS is something that's called hidden in plain sight. Once you tap it, you know it's EIFS. Although from a distance, you wouldn't know what it was. You're like, "Wow, it seems to be everywhere." Most local retail establishments, everything from a Burger King to a McDonald's to your strip shopping center, usually has this product somewhere on it. But the closest one I that I was just at this afternoon waiting for the meeting, is the uh I believe it's the Aloft Hotel, right down the street.

female speaker

Is that the name, Aloft?

male speaker

Aloft.

male speaker

Yeah, if you turn

male speaker

Uh right next to TGI Fridays, right?

male speaker

Is it the Home2? I'm sorry. It's the Home2 Suites. Sorry.

male speaker

There's a new Aloft going up in Georgetown that Milford, I think, proposed. But that has EIFS all over it.

female speaker

Okay, thank you.

male speaker

Now, I assume the the entire building is going to be covered with EIFS, then, right? The the elevator the facade and the elevation area, the entire building, right?

male speaker

Yes.

male speaker

All right, thank you. Um, quick question on the design, um is this rendering is accurate? This is exactly the way it's going to be?

male speaker

Yes.

male speaker

Yes.

male speaker

Yeah, because we've had a couple other projects where we get a little bit of a bait-and-switch and they're like, "Oh, yeah, we didn't have the materials."

male speaker

Now, the the only thing you're probably going to notice once it's done is if if you're standing way back by Legislative Hall, is the back building is going to be a little lower because now we're lining up. Before we weren't, we were like this. Now, we're coming down.

male speaker

Okay. Also um yeah, because I notice you have some really nice belt courses going along the elevation. Uh those are going to be there?

male speaker

We're going to We're going to do all that, yep. Soldier courses, everything are going

male speaker

Now, those are real bricks there, right?

male speaker

No, it's all EIFS.

male speaker

It's all EIFS, even the even the belt courses. Okay.

male speaker

That would be known as uh called EIFS shapes, which are cut and molded and brought to the job site in either a raw foam or a base coated, and then they put the finish coat over top of it.

male speaker

Yeah, I got you.

male speaker

Um, now compared to the original um proposal for this, there Yeah, I wish we kind of had the older picture. I guess they're identical?

male speaker

Yeah, they are they are identical. That's why there's no new and old.

male speaker

Because some of the problems with the renderings I see is they put uh conveniently put mature trees over certain elements of the building, and I can't see, like for example, the tie-in between the facade and the elevation, because I know it kind of ties in because the elevation's taller than the facade. So, it uh if you look at the uh plan view um prior to this, um the the actual line drawing, uh you'll see that that, yeah, the um the elevation's taller than the facade. It's going to be viewable from probably across the street, maybe?

male speaker

Well, it is and it always was, but now it's going to be a little lower.

male speaker

I got you. I got you.

male speaker

I just want to make sure what we see on the drawing, because they'll say, "Well, that's a that's a planned rendering," and then all of a sudden we we do get changes to the final product. Uh and that's what I'm always concerned about.

male speaker

Our plan is to not deviate from what you see.

female speaker

Related to this, thank you. Uh so they uh the the tympanum will be white, uh and it will say the Old Post, and it will have the um six part uh window.

male speaker

Yes.

female speaker

Okay, thank you so much. The the other question I had from last time was uh the access by the apartment dwellers, home dwellers, and will these be um uh peo- will Will this be owner-occupied housing?

male speaker

No, rental apartments.

female speaker

Rental apartments. So, the access for the people in the rental apartments to the retail on the first floor or whatever is going to happen in the front, uh there was some discussion possibly an eatery or some some sort of retail situation, uh how will they how will they access that? Is there an access from the interior of the building that they could use?

male speaker

No, it's from the out come out of the building and then go in through the front.

female speaker

So, they would have to go out of the building and then come back in the front. Um This sits with me as a social problem.

male speaker

Uh It was more for security purposes than

female speaker

Yeah. Aren't we all still Aren't we all there now? You know, isn't that now really what everyone's worried about? Yep. Yep. Yep. So, um and the uh and the extra trip that people would have to take in order to um to um avail themselves of the services of whoever is in the front of the building, um I just hope people have a piece of good cheer about that as uh it's it This this would be a problem for me. So, thank you very much for your your honorable responses.

male speaker

Thank you.

male speaker

All right, thank you very much.

male speaker

Thank you.

male speaker

All right, now public comment, is that before or after our discussion?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um so Mr. Chair, if you have um some questions for the applicant, you I think you've kind of maybe exhausted those for the moment. Uh this is subject to public hearing, so you can um deal with the public hearing and then return to your deliberation or more questions of the applicant.

male speaker

All right. Um Does anybody have any further questions? Um I think we're pretty straightforward on this one, right?

female speaker

I have a couple. Um And um how is the cornerstone going to be left in place or taken inside for viewing?

male speaker

Yeah, come back down.

female speaker

Yeah, sorry. I should have asked that earlier.

male speaker

Sorry about that.

male speaker

We're going to leave it in place.

female speaker

Oh, that's that's really good. Thank you. And then the other one was on the landscape plan. There were some boxwoods, that I think were called for, and they'll they'll probably not last because of the box moth. And I didn't know whether you had an alternative for those.

female speaker

It's the last page.

Chad Warren

How you doing, I'm Chad Warren with Davis Building for Dale.

Ann Horsey

It's the last page, yeah. We have...

Project Representative

We do still currently show the NewGen Freedom boxwood on our landscape plan, um, just in that small portion between the two entrances to the rear parking lot.

Ann Horsey

Okay, guaranteed the moth will get them. So you might want to think of another alternative, a holly of some type.

Project Representative

Okay. Thank you.

Ann Horsey

Yeah.

Kathleen Baker

Yes, I thank my colleague because I'm dealing with this at home. And also, good luck with the nandina.

Eric Czerwinski

Okay, do we have any more questions for our members here? All right, thank you. Appreciate it. All right, is there anybody of the public here that wishes to speak? If so, come on down to the mic and state your name.

Eric Czerwinski

I'm not seeing anybody here, if anybody online?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Don't believe so. Um, our one, this is Dawn with the planning, the one virtual attendee is just observing our meeting, um, this afternoon. And the other participants are related to the next application. So Mr. Chair, um, certainly that could conclude your public hearing on this particular application for the Post unless there is someone in the audience that wishes to speak.

Eric Czerwinski

All right, thank you. All right, discussion. What do you guys think? Where are your thoughts?

Ellen Richardson

I think it's I think it's fine. Um, one of the questions was about the brick dormers. In the staff recommendations, they say normally dormers aren't comprised of brick, but I don't think that makes a difference one way or the other. Um,

Ann Horsey

dormers are not normally brick-clad, so.

Eric Czerwinski

I mean if you look at the the picture, it doesn't seem to affect it too adversely having a brick dormer. Otherwise it's just going to be white siding.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Yes, so staff would note that I think the rendering has one appearance, and then if you actually follow all the, um, elements of the line work drawing, it is shown as a different it is shown as a siding material not as a brick for those elements.

Eric Czerwinski

Do you want to get that clarified?

Ellen Richardson

I don't think it makes a difference personally.

Eric Czerwinski

Okay.

Ellen Richardson

Um, and then the only other thing, I would go with all the staff recommendations, but, um, I would like to add to that, uh, that they should consider an alternative to the boxwood, as Ann pointed out that the boxwood all over town are just decimated.

Eric Czerwinski

Okay, so I think we're pretty much online with this. Does anybody want to forward a motion?

Kathleen Baker

Oh, may I just make an extra comment? Thank you.

Eric Czerwinski

Sure.

Kathleen Baker

This is Kathleen. Uh, I thought the first application, uh, was very fine, uh, number of months ago. Um, this one is stunning. Uh, it is complete. It is detailed. It is, um, uh, one of the most impressive uh pieces of work I've seen. And I wanted to thank all those who were involved in it for such excellent preparations.

Ann Horsey

I'd like to make a comment, too. What really, um, I understand the whole process of why the building needs to be demolished. We're not always a commission that denies demolition, but I think the, um, letter from, uh, Frank Demendi made it really clear on what his vision is for this site, and it is, uh, masterfully written if you read it, and he's emphasized his points, and it's beautifully done, and for that reason we should approve it.

Ellen Richardson

Okay. I move that we approve, um, application HI-25-01 Revised Number 2, um, with the staff recommendations as well as an alternative suggestion for the boxwoods.

Ann Horsey

Second.

Eric Czerwinski

Okay. All in favor say aye.

Kathleen Baker

Aye.

Ann Horsey

Aye.

Eric Czerwinski

All against?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh, so Mr. Chair, again, I would ask the members, uh, since you did that by, um, voice vote, if you, uh, each of you believe that your, um, your reasons for, um, voting the way you did were clearly reflected in the information that was placed on the record either through questioning or statements by others.

Eric Czerwinski

Uh, this uh Mr. Czerwinski, yes.

Ann Horsey

Ann Horsey, yes.

Kathleen Baker

Kathleen Baker, yes. And, uh, additionally it is, uh, truly worthy of, uh, being the welcoming and landmark building for Dover.

Ellen Richardson

Ellen Richardson, I concur.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Thank you. Just want to make sure we've got that appropriately on the record. Uh, so your this was your recommendation on the architectural review certification for revision number two. Um, it will be verbally reported to the Planning Commission at their meeting on Monday evening. Um, normally we don't have that quick of a turnaround, but we're trying to keep the project moving, um, in the right direction, uh, given the the latest revision. Uh, so we will report, um, the proceedings of today, and, uh, the applicant will be likewise present at that meeting, and I would encourage you to bring your samples to that one as, too, um, so that the Planning Commission can learn about the, uh, wall system that is now proposed for this project.

Eric Czerwinski

All right, thank you. All right, let's move on to, uh, the next, uh, new application. This is HI-25-02, uh, Revised, um, and S-25-11 Revised, uh, The Governor, uh, mixed-use building at 120 South Governors Avenue.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Okay, so Mr. Chair, um, we're going to hear from Chris on this one, and we do have, um, various members of the project team, so I'll call Chris forward. Um, he's helping save my voice today. Um, so another revision.

Chris

Always happy to help save your voice when I can, Dawn. Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and members of the board. Today before you is a revision of an existing project, HI-25-02, The Governor Revised. It is a mixed-use building proposed at 120 South Governors Avenue. The property is zoned C-2 Central Commercial and Historic. The commission has been provided with the minutes of the July 17th, 2025 Historic District Commission meeting for your reference for this project, um, and the key points behind this project revisiting is really the architectural changes that have been proposed by the applicant and their new architect.

Chris

So the original project proposed a 169,080 sq ft mixed-use building including retail and restaurant spaces, a child daycare, grocery, and 120 apartment buildings. That makeup of the building has not changed. The original building was meant to be 60 ft tall, clad in masonry colors and copper-brown metal paneling with a matte black trim and fiber cement panels in neutral tones with black and dark bronze metal elements. The first treatment would be the first treatment will be on the north and southeastern corners, and there was a second treatment including neutral tones of plank siding and fiber cement, black matte trim, masonry, and black or dark bronze decorative metal elements with window frames. The primary facade would alternate between masonry piers, glazing, fiber cement piers, and accent metal panels. Both the street-facing elevations were proposed to have a brickwork pattern of varying orientations up to the cornice line, where it would transition into a more muted expression on the upper levels.

Alex

again, clean up the the surrounding context to make sure that the experience as you walk around the building has eyes on it. There's more transparency, there's more eyes on the street and sidewalks in activation. And then if we're able to go to the New Street side, there was comments previously made with a previous design and we wanted to fine-tune this was add additional storefront along the grocer that faces that parking. Really trying to activate that that side of the street. So when people are engaging at the grocer, again people can see inside and outside the building. It's activated, people feel more safe because there's transparency, there's connection. And the last bit of detail is really adding in those canopies. Again, a lot of emphasis on refining that design so that the pedestrian experience is in keeping with what's happening on either side of us, but it's it's welcoming, it's safe, and it's engaging for the people of the community when they come here and they they're patrons of the hopefully the grocery store and and the daycare. So with that, I will answer any questions the team may have.

Board Member 1

Well, I got a couple comments if you want me to lead off with this. First of all, the Governors facade is absolutely gorgeous. That's a work of art. Absolute work of art. I I was stunned. The the the features, the the massing, everything about it just absolutely perfect. My problem is the New Street side where you literally took a two-story rear facade brick structure or facade and then basically took it off the back and put it on the front. And my problem, like I said, this is a slam dunk on Governors. New Street's another story altogether because uh if you could show the New Street side. What was the idea behind the mural wall? Is that Is there a functional reason why that's there?

Alex

So that portion of the building is actually a stair tower that we relocated for better egress for fire life safety so that that end of the building is a stair tower now. So there isn't really an opportunity to put windows to really activate it. So instead, our intent was, because there was murals in previous design, was re- reincorporate that in a strategic location where unfortunately there isn't a great opportunity to put windows, but activate in a way that we can create something for the community and create something artistic. So right now that elevation in that rendering, it is just a gray block, but the intent is that you can see it in that image, the lighter gray, the intent is in that zone there would be some type of art that we would install there to activate that space.

Board Member 1

That's a massive piece of art. Well, my problem really is is that the New Street side is yeah, well it's just it's it's blasé. And the thing is, what's sad about that, if you go to the Governors side, there's no houses that face Governors side, right? I mean you're getting to the central city, and you're showing your best side to the central city, and you're kind of showing the back to the neighborhood. Because there's actually there's really it's almost featureless on the rear on the rear elevation of the building. What was once you had the brick facade on the rear on the northwest elevation of the building, you took that off altogether. So you took a feature away with the cornice of showing anything that had anything to relate to a neighborhood.

Board Member 2

Yeah. Can can you go to page 11 in you put up page 11

City Staff Member

Can you can you go Can you pull it up? It's so it's not loaded there. Um

City Staff Member

Yeah. So if we can go to the online packet, then you can pull it up. I think.

Board Member 1

Well, anyways, I just I'm kind of alarmed at the lack of features on the back side. And those faces those face the houses. So if you're trying to invite people in, and they want to be part of this neighborhood, they're going to see the back side of a beautiful building that they're not going to be able to enjoy. And I and I and I was kind of surprised because the front looked really good, and all of a sudden, it's like you took off the only architectural feature that made the back uh the rear elevation even worth looking at. Because we had complained before on the old design that it looked too much like a hospital, like that was the emergency room entrance to a hospital. And that's where I have a major problem with this building, because this is in a residential area. This isn't in the middle of the city. That's not facing off some you know facing another office building, it's actually facing the New Street neighborhood. And if I were in that neighborhood, I'd be kind of alarmed having this large, featureless building backed up to my house.

Board Member 2

it's the view the bottom with that big gray square on top of one of the buildings, it's

Board Member 1

Yeah, well this one's showing the old and the new. It's showing exactly what I was talking about.

Board Member 2

Exactly. Yeah.

Board Member 1

Um instead, like on the rear elevation, you incorporated the staircase, so instead of having a pair of windows there, and I understand that there's got to be a design element changed, but then you go to this big, what looks like a video screen. It just looks really alarming because now you just elevated the building because of that the square. The square is so out of place to the rest of the building.

Board Member 2

Yeah, what is that square?

Board Member 1

Well, like you said, it's a staircase, right? An emergency staircase?

Alex

Yes, that entire wall is the staircase. The intent for that square is that that'd be designated space for a mural at a future date. So it would not remain a a gray square. That would be activated with art. That is the intent. Obviously

Board Member 1

Yeah, I know. With a mural, you'd have a nice big mural on it. And then, of course, with the garage door, which I understand the necessity of it, but that doesn't add to the character whatsoever the I just, like I said, had this been aiming out towards another part of the city where there was some other whether the Duncan Center was across the street or some other office building, but people are living there. And then when they see this building, it's pretty nondescript. And you took off the one like I said, the one feature on the northwest elevation that made it you know have any charm. You took that off, and that's my biggest concern with this. You did a wonderful job on Governors. It's absolutely gorgeous. And then you took all the money and you put it right on the front, and then you put no money into the back. And I wish we had a better balanced approach, because I think, even though I like this design a heck of a lot better, the original proposition was at least a little bit more balanced you know going onto New Street. Because there's got to be more done to make that less like like a hotel than an apartment building. There is a difference between the two, you know what I mean? And I just don't see it here, and that's my problem.

Board Member 1

Other comments?

Board Member 2

No, I I agree 100%. You you did have a slide that included all the architectural details that you found around town, but I don't see a single one of them on this side of the building.

Alex

Yeah, and I think if you actually go down one more slide in this, there's another image actually looks into the entryway where all of those details picked back up because it's a high tactile zone. Um believe it's the next page in this slide. Um if you flip

City Staff Member

So Alex, can you go back up? Uh yeah. So there's that one, and then I think there's it's before that.

Alex

Correct, that one. So this is looking a little bit more actually into that space, and you can see that the back white wall, that is emulating the exact same details that we see on the the Governor's side. So all that trim work, it's brought back in, and we try to keep all of the architectural details, so like residential is residential, anything that's commercial has the brick and that storefront, the canopy. We're trying to keep the program and the architectural elements consistent. Um so you do start to see all those detail elements show back up on this. It's just this is a more closed-in view where you can actually start to see that detail come back.

Board Member 1

Right, and that was the first one I saw, and I'm like, oh it doesn't look that bad, you know, when it's close up and you're looking down into the the alcove there. And then when you pull back, it's like there's nothing else there. And like I said, with that big staircase in black, it really stands out. It just doesn't It looks completely out of place for the area. You know, because again, we got to look at scale, right? This is important, and we've been dealing with this with other projects, whether it's the Family Court building or we're talking about the parking garage for the Legislative Green. Scale is really important, and we we kind of we ignore that. And the thing is, like in the past we've always tried to bring the eyes down. And we tried to do that a little bit with the white. I understand that. But this is bereft of any architectural features on it whatsoever. So, um you know, there's no cornices, there's no uh you know breakups in the design whatsoever. Like the front does it beautifully. This one just has straight line. And it just screams office buildings versus, and like I said, we're nestled right into a residential area. This is going right next to people's houses. So you open up your door, and you got this big big box in front of you. And I I just I have a problem. Maybe we need to turn that around and put the front on New Street, and then put this on Governors. You know, that's just the way I'm thinking.

Board Member 3

Um my comment will would be similar, but I think, yeah, Governors Avenue is beautiful, and to carry that same kind of feeling around to New Street,

Board Member 3

to think that New is an important street, just like Governors is. Um and I do think with the other slide, this one is okay, I think, this view. And on the what would be the north side, the south side, um as others have reflected, um there is that big square that that's so different in color, and

Board Member 3

and then the the two other, yeah, the the white and the black. And maybe that could change color a bit, or something could happen, but I agree. The south um west, yes, um is a little jarring, a little too geometric. Maybe, yeah.

Board Member 2

It it just doesn't look like it belongs in a historic neighborhood. It it doesn't.

Board Member 1

And Ms. Baker, do you have any comments?

Ms. Baker

The big black box is amazing. Um and it's all you see. Uh on that elevation and then and then I concur. It looks like a hospital if you No. Uh there's got to be some way within a a financial framework to fix that. Um It's It's uh It is extremely jarring.

Ms. Baker

Uh I don't know how to fix that, but I bet you do.

Alex

There there are numerous uh solutions, and it's it's good to kind of hear your feedback, because as you're talking, it's it's one of the first things that I'm looking at is the the cornice line between the brick and the fiber cement. That's something that we can absolutely bring back like articulate more, give it a little more depth, give it more play, get the shadow play. Those are like little moves that are are easy to incorporate, but add that texture and the detail that I'm hearing you all say. And then with that end condition with the stair, we can look at that a little bit further and see if there's some way to activate it, whether we redesign how the stair actually configures, so there is a way to get windows on one of the sides to activate it, just so it's not a blank wall. So what I'm hearing is we can refine that just a little bit, add some of that that detail that you see on the Governor's side, and it it captures some of the character that I I'm hearing you all express.

Board Member 1

Exactly. Like I said, there's so much care done to the to the Governors facade, Governors Avenue facade of this building, and I'd like to see a little bit more of that care. Like I said, I think like I said, some more cornices, doing some care on the cornices and that sort of thing to add some design features. I don't know if uh like a sashed window design, so they're a little bit less office-looking. I don't know, like you said, you're the architect. I know that you can figure out little fixes here and there on that. Does anybody have anything any comments?

Board Member 3

Yeah, what I really like um too as a side note is the way you've put a little bit of italic in the Governor. It really dignifies it, I think.

Board Member 2

Now, would the brick that is on the front of the Governor um Governor Avenue, would that be the same brick that is on like the grocery store? Correct. And, okay, because they're different colors in the packet.

Alex

Yeah, so in the previous design, there was I think there was I believe there was two different distinct colors. Our kind of approach for this was to keep the colors consistent, so the identity is the same. So as it kind of translates around, and if we actually go to two slides down, you can kind of see how it rotates. So you can kind of start to actually see how that brick rotates down and see how it translates to the ground floor. So the intent is to keep the brick consistent as you move around the site, and there's only one, and you're keeping essentially four to five colors most, so it's all consistent as we move around the site.

Board Member 2

Thank you.

Alex

Thank you for asking that question. That's a good one.

Board Member 3

Yes, and um the the use of black, um I I really like the drama of black, but it may not uh you there may be another another what you may be able to keep the black as much as it is because it is very distinctive looking, but there's a lot of darkness in

Kathleen Baker

the Loockerman context. And I always I always am eager to see it lightened up a bit, but that's a matter of personal taste. The the thing is to maybe find some aspect of even if it's, I don't know, some aspect from the front of the Governor that you can you can paste onto the back, if you will. And yeah, I think a mural would be great, but a mural that sits up like that is is looming rather than inspiring.

Sean

Yeah, and to your point about like those details, again, like taking that cornice line that we see here and pulling that around, you're saying that these are these are little things that we can easily catch in comments and and incorporate that. So again, there's that continuity, the the the line that goes around that level. There's that kind of integration of the mural, so we can absolutely look into that further.

Kathleen Baker

I was delighted to hear Mr. Chairman's comment initially because that was that was my comment, too: the change between the former presentation of the Governors Avenue side and this one was wonderful.

Joseph Czerwinski

Well yeah, I'd like to see that kind of wrap around on the other side a little bit so we could feature some of the charm that's on Governors and incorporate that on New Street.

Kathleen Baker

And we know how that neighborhood is suffering now, believe me. So anything to relieve that suffering and raise the aspirations of people. Yes. Very, very important. Thank you.

Joseph Czerwinski

All right. Anything else? All right, well thank you very much for your presentation. Thank you.

Sean

Thank you all for the comments.

Joseph Czerwinski

All right, um so uh is anybody else from uh the representing or not? All right, uh let's go on to public comment. If uh if anyone can come down, if you want to come down, state your name please.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you very much for receiving me. I am Dr. Roy Sudler, Jr. I am the District 4 Councilman. Uh New Street, uh downtown Dover, the majority of downtown Dover is my district as you know. Thank you for your work that you do here. I concur with uh the sentiment of the committee. Um it's excellent work. I tip my hat off to you if I had a hat. Um I do believe that is very in you mind if I speak? It's very imperative that um the front sort of aligns with the back so that the community will feel that they weren't um give a perception that maybe they weren't felt as important as the other street. That's always been a concern and issue that New Street is always less important or less valued um than the other streets, and I know that is not the case here. I know the work that you all are doing is excellent. If you hear from me, it's it's good. I would just uh maybe recommend uh maybe like the the majority of of the committee has already expressed, maybe wrapping some of the uh the front decor to the back a little bit and maybe deleting um the the mirror component, because the first thing I think about is uh, "Are we going to watch the NFL football game on the big screen?" I'm sure they probably would like that. It would be a whole party. What, you know, I'm sure they would like that, but that's the first thing, like at the rail house, you know. But um, it's it's beautiful. I support all of the improvement, and I just want to say thank you, and thank you uh to the committee and commission for what you're doing. I appreciate it, and uh thank you for your your consideration, and you know, the the constituents uh in that area. I yield. Thank you for recognizing me. I yield. I support uh the initiative, but if we can make some adjustments according to um amendment according to the commission, I'm in agreement with that as one of three of the councilpersons that represent that district. Thank you for your work. I yield.

Joseph Czerwinski

All right. Thank you very much. Uh do we have anybody else here that would wish to come up and speak?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Chair, I don't necessarily see anyone in the audience here. This is Dawn with the Planning Office. Um I do want to uh check in with um the couple of representatives of the project team that we um that we have here that have joined us online, um with uh Christopher from uh NORR if there's anything else, and then um Leslie with uh Mosaic Development.

Leslie Smallwood-Lewis

I would like to say something, but I didn't know if Chris was going to say something first.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So, Leslie, I did not see him unmute, so let's go ahead and start with you, if you'll uh formally introduce yourself for the record and um then uh share your thoughts.

Leslie Smallwood-Lewis

Absolutely. My name is Leslie Smallwood-Lewis. I'm from Mosaic Development Partners JV. We are uh the developer on the project and have been working very closely with DDP to bring what we think and hope is a project that we can all be proud of. Appreciate everyone's comments. I definitely just want to relay that we've been very conscious and aware that there needs to be uh an equal approach between Governors and New Street. I mean from the very beginning when we started this project, we knew that New Street It had this project had to have two front doors. Um so I understand comments, I understand, you know, the the the wall that you want us to focus on, but I did want to make sure that it was placed on the record that we completely understand uh the importance of New Street, um and we will make the appropriate tweaks to the project based on your comments. Um I do think that or I appreciate everyone's comments on our Governors Street facade. We're we're very excited about how this is uh really come together um with our new architect, with our comments, and then bringing it to life. So we will make sure that in earnest we take your comments back and and make some mod- make some modifications to the New Street side.

Dawn Melson-Williams

All right, thank you, Leslie. Um is there any other comments from uh Chris, who's part of the the NORR team, or was Sean speaking on behalf of your group?

Christopher

Sean was speaking on I have no follow-up comments.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Okay. Thank you, Christopher. Uh so, Mr. Chair, that is um all of the uh online participants. Um the other attendee was just observing our proceedings um this afternoon.

Joseph Czerwinski

All right. Thank you. Uh, Ms. Baker?

Kathleen Baker

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh I I uh was seeking uh to find 105, 111, and 115 South New Street um in the last several days, because they are cited as properties uh that might be um uh you know, uh used as small businesses. I could not see addresses on New Street for those. Can someone can someone illustrate, amplify, and just uh fill in this these blanks here?

Kathleen Baker

105, 111, and 115 South New are addresses that are cited um as uh improvements on adjacent related properties.

Diane Laird

Yes. That That Diane Laird, DDP. Um that is the outdoor recreational area for the day care and uh the public, which the public will also have access at certain hours. So so it's not built. It's not retail. It's playground and recreational area.

Kathleen Baker

Oh, thank you very much.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Yeah, so this is Dawn with the Planning Office. If we go to um one of the site drawings, um on the upper left corner there uh is where you see that that play space. Um I don't believe there's any buildings uh still standing in those areas. Those three properties are not within the historic district boundary, um and, but they are part of the overall project site and include some of those recreational amenities and uh service-related things with the uh child day care facility.

Joseph Czerwinski

All right, so comments. I think we're all kind of on the same page on this one. Um definitely want to see improvements on the rear facade on the New Street side of this building. Um I know that's probably going to add cost to it to the project, but I think it's worth the toil to make sure that that building who is going to be nestled along of uh that, you know, that neighborhood is representing the best of the intents, I guess, uh for the neighborhood itself.

Kathleen Baker

But I I think that um we want the neighborhood to be as proud of that side of the building as the rest of of everybody is as proud of the front. So yes, I think we need to see see what the proposed improvements would be.

Joseph Czerwinski

Yeah, I gotcha.

Joseph Czerwinski

Uh so uh do I have uh uh forward a motion? And I can go ahead with the motion, I guess.

Joseph Czerwinski

I'd like to forward uh the motion that we deny uh the architectural review certification for HI-25-02 revised and S-25-11 revised, the Governors mixed-use building at 120 South Governors Avenue, requesting a uh architectural uh redesign uh on the rear elevation facing New Street that would better reflect uh what is showing on Governors, um and then uh have that re- uh proposed or presented to the Historic District Commission meeting at a future or District Commission at a future meeting.

Kathleen Baker

I second.

Joseph Czerwinski

All in favor? Aye. All against?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Again, I will ask that since that was conducted via voice vote, that uh you feel that your reasons for um making that request for redesign of the uh New Street facade or side of the building at the present time, um that that redesign is warranted and should be returned to you um before making the final decision on the architecture review certificate for the revision.

Joseph Czerwinski

Well, I, Mr. Czerwinski, have uh voted with the information that was presented here at the uh meeting.

Ellen Richardson

Ellen Richardson agrees.

Kathleen Baker

As does Kathleen Baker.

Ann Horsey

Ann Horsey does, too.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So So technically, um this is scheduled for the historic for the Planning Commission meeting on Monday. Um we will report their your recommendation um to the the Planning Commission, but I think the applicant has certainly heard you today, and my guess is will be working diligently. Um they can coordinate with staff about getting information back um before this commission at a at a future meeting. Um but we'll The Planning Commission has received everything that you have, and um we will report what action um that you took today uh regarding this.

Joseph Czerwinski

Thank you very much, everybody. Appreciate it. Uh moving on to old business and the Certified Local Government program.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh so, um the for the Certified Local Government program, no um additional information at at this point in time. Um I will move on to the implementation of the 2019 comprehensive plan. Um you have had heard me speak before about the SJR 8, um the uh Senate Joint Resolution 8, which is looking at housing and some land use reform. Um that project with the consultant is is moving along. Um they have issued a draft of a what is a regulatory analysis of basically looking at the city's um housing regulations, our zoning ordinance when it comes to construction of dwelling units, and certain um perhaps changes that could be brought forth for um our housing regulations uh to increase housing and other opportunities related to that. Uh the uh consultant did make a presentation to the Council Committee of the Whole um at their meeting on Tuesday of this week. Uh they will also be presenting to the Planning Commission information on um on the program to date. Uh if you're interested in that information, it is posted as part of the meeting packet for the Planning Commission. There's a series of slides, and then the regulatory analysis report um that you can reference. Uh if you can't find that, uh planning staff can certainly um get that to you. The other thing of note is, as part of that process, uh we are in the in the with the consultant working towards an um a workshop public open house regarding the program and potential changes related to housing um efforts, and that

Dawn Melson-Williams

is scheduled for October 14th, a 4:30 to 6:30 presentation and kind of open house opportunity.

Dawn Melson-Williams

It will be held at the library. Certainly when we have the

Dawn Melson-Williams

public outreach piece advertising that formerly we're actually meeting with them tomorrow. We will forward that onto you all cuz I know you live in

Dawn Melson-Williams

downtown and of course that is an area that they've looked at,

Dawn Melson-Williams

you know, what are options and opportunities that may be able to be put forth related to housing efforts here in, in Dover.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Nothing has been decided as to drafting ordinances, making changes there. They have identified where there are potential challenges in our code and where there are opportunities to make improvements.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So we'll certainly keep you in the loop on, on that.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So that's what I have for that aspect of the count plan. So

Chair

Any questions on that?

Commission Member

What's the title of that of presentation of the chunk of it? I'm sorry.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um it is zoning and land use reform related to housing. Um so if you look at the planning commission um meeting agenda for Monday uh September 21st uh it's uh towards the end of their agenda.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um there is a the kind of series of um slides that will be presented by the consultant, gives a lot of housing data. Uh they've crunched some demographic info, um renter versus ownership, and then also

Dawn Melson-Williams

uh concepts for there was a series of topic areas that they were researching um and it includes that in the presentation, but then there was a document as well that's included in that packet.

Commission Member

Thank you very much.

Chair

All right. Um, and so if, uh, we got the public, is this a public comments opportunity that's, pops up here?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Yes, Mr. Chair. So you have an opportunity um for members of the public to provide comments uh to the Historic District Commission that are not specifically related to applications that had public hearings. However, there are no additional members of the public in the room uh nor online at this point in time. Uh so I don't see any members of the public providing that opportunity, or taking advantage of that opportunity this afternoon or evening.

Chair

All right. Thank you. Can we get a motion to adjourn?

Commission Member

Moved to adjourn.

Commission Member 2

Second.

Chair

All in favor, say aye.

Commission Member

Aye.

Commission Member 2

Aye.

Chair

All against?

Chair

And we got nobody against. Uh, you guys have a good day.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Thank you for joining us this afternoon. That, and evening, that concludes the meeting of the Historic District Commission.