Transcript: Council Committee of the Whole Meeting

David L. Anderson

Good evening. Welcome to the Dover City Council Committee of the Whole. At this time, we call the meeting to order. I will now call the order the City Council Committee of the Whole meeting of Tuesday, September 26th, 2023. I would like to remind the public that the public comments are welcome on any item and will be permitted at the appropriate time. You have before you this evening's agenda, and I will entertain a motion for its adoption.

Tricia K. Arndt

Motion to approve the agenda.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Motion second.

David L. Anderson

Been moved by Councilwoman Arndt, seconded by Councilman Rocha to approve the agenda. Are there amendments or discussion? Seeing none, all in favor?

Council Members

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed? The motion is adopted.

David L. Anderson

First, on the agenda, we have a presentation from Booted & Suited with Mr. Bobby Wilson. While he comes forward and just introduce yourself for the record when you're ready, please. I'm going to first read a statement from Council President Fred Neil into the record, who is not feeling well today, and he's in our thoughts and prayers. We look forward to his return. He said, "My froggy throat has become a full-blown cold, and he's concerned that he's contagious and he apologized to Mr. Wilson because he won't be in. And he said, 'I would like Councilman Anderson to run the meeting, and the statement below my signature to read in the record.' Mr. Wilson's program could be our secret weapon. Mr. Wilson has provided us a wide variety of services and education programs which are worthy, but are not in our charter to provide. But there's a single reason for my sponsoring this program, is the value of one aspect vital to our economic development: a training program for street smart people to help clean up the mess that pervades downtown and other places.

David L. Anderson

We have heard from a lady last night afraid of going through her fence to her home. We have heard that a lot. Eyes on. Uniformed. A year-long program with jobs available when training is over, and a new class of trainees are on the streets. There's no question in my mind that Mr. Wilson loves this city. He did a gratis cleanup, demonstrating that he can deliver what he has promised. I would think that our Public Works employees are pushed to the limit. It's time to get our streets back, and Mr. Wilson's program can help us do that, and enhance the vision and and safety. If it works in Wilmington, it can work here. Please note, alongside my signature, I have written pending available funding, I would put this program in the top of the list. Fred Neil, President, Dover City Council." And let the record so reflect. Now, Mr. Wilson, with that introduction, please go ahead.

Bobby Wilson

Good evening. Good evening, my name is Bobby Wilson, 32 West Loockerman Street, Suite 101 B, D, excuse me. Um, bear with me because my spokesperson, she called out sick today. And, um, I'm here with you. I'm a promoter by trade, so I'm in the background. I'm not on stage. So, with that being said, I come to you tonight to speak to you about Booted & Suited and and thank you Council for inviting me back. This is my I think it's my third time here speaking on the same behalf. And since then, Booted & Suited has moved forward in some of the activities that we have planned. And one of the activities that we have planned is to have facilities to run a program, which we have on Loockerman Street, which is the office where the program will be ran from, far as the classroom setting. The students will come into the program on Loockerman Street and have an eight-week class setting, and the first three weeks will be soft skills, where they will learn how to be on the job on time, respect your coworker, respect the job site, and respect your employer.

Bobby Wilson

With that being said, then after the soft skills, we'll go into the hard skills. We have two locations that we're doing the hard skills. On South Little Creek Road is where the garage, we're training auto mechanics, we're training construction from that facility. We're partnering up with the Bricklayers Union. They're going to be part of the training process as well, and then we also plan to partner with the Local 199. It's a union outfit out of Newark, Delaware. With those two units coming down to partner with us, and there's no other location in Kent County that's doing outside training but Polytech in this area. I was working with Reverend Keeling, Central Baptist Church, in the workforce development. That's how I got involved in this in Wilmington. Wilmington, as you know, have more resources across the bridge in New Castle County. And I found out the reason why, because of innovations. There's a lot of innovation minds across the bridge that don't that's not scared to take a risk. And we have to take risks. And I had took the risk by bringing the program to fruition with my own capital, with an office downtown that's $2,000 a month, and a garage that's $2,500 a month, paying this out of my pocket to train folks in this community. Because, as Mr. Neil said, I love my community. I've been in business in this community since 1985 with Freshman Barbershop, and trained many barbers in this community. So, I have been involved in workforce development for some time now.

Bobby Wilson

And by going to Wilmington and working with Central Baptist Church and learning the ins and out of the workforce development, dealing with DHSS, and as you know, with the workforce, return to workforce and the SNAP program, there has to be training with individuals to stay on SNAP, if not they'll lose it. And we have no training in Dover besides Polytech. We have individuals that have been traveling from Kent and Sussex County to get to a program in Wilmington, taking two and three buses. And then in return, the people in New Castle, we've been bussing them down to Milford to build the new hospital. So, we bypassing Dover individuals to go down to Milford to work, and they taking the money back to Wilmington. I said something has to be done. We have to create something in Dover. So, therefore, that is how Booted & Suited came to fruition. So, moving forward, um, we need funding. I can't do this on my own. We need funding. If not, it's going to end. So, what happened in the meantime, I decided to move forward with one of the programs that we proposed to you last time, and that program was the farmers market. We orchestrated the farmers market out of our own pockets. Everyone that's involved with the farmers market, will you please stand? Everyone involved with the farmers market on on the Saturday's farmers market. Where's Dawn? These are the volunteers, and they've been volunteering for eight weeks for this farmers market, and it has been successful. Thank everyone for coming out. We want to continue moving the farmers market forward, have a bigger and better farmers market next year.

Bobby Wilson

So, the farmers market came about on The Green because the we did a survey and the people said they would not participate in a farmers market if it was on Loockerman Street, because of the crime. They fear for their safety. That's why we calling it a greener, safer Dover, cleaner, greener, safer Dover, to correct all this. So, moving forward, what we creating here in Dover with this grant is a will be a program where it'd be 8 hours a day downtown cleanup. Have anyone been to Wilmington and and witnessed an organization called Downtown Visions? Downtown Visions, they're responsible for the cleanup of Downtown Wilmington. I have on the line, Mike Maggitti, he is the CEO for Downtown Visions. They are one of my mentor they're my mentor organization for this. When I was in Wilmington, we supplied some of the employees from the program to Visions for employment. It's a I think they run two shifts in Wilmington. We will be running one shift in Dover, one 8-hour shift, 5 to 6 days a week, and possibly moving into an evening shift once it continue to grow. But the point of the matter is we will be available to clean up. I have some slides in reference to all the activity that I have been filming downtown with the panhandling, the sleeping in the doorways. All these type of things have been going on downtown that that average person that is not embedded downtown on a consistent basis would not see unless they, you know, really really engaged in downtown to see how how bad it is. I mean it's truly bad. So, our thing is is that if we can clean up downtown, it would make a difference in the coming of our new construction. We have to put a foot forward where our clean up crews would be able to engage in with these individuals, walk individuals to the cars, clean up the feces that's in these pockets of doorways, because it's a health hazard downtown Dover as I speak.

Bobby Wilson

The individuals that would be working downtown, they will be wearing uniforms. You'll be able to identify them. And then we would have a phone number where you would call if your family member or yourself need to be escorted to and from wherever you want to shop, if you feel unsafe. We would not be police officers, we would not get in the way of police officers. But we will be boots on the ground to have communication with the police officers. And I think for safety reasons, with what we have now with the police officers going all different directions, to have a group in town that's not only cleaning downtown, but also concerned about the safety of the individuals to communicate with the necessary office that needs to come out and help the situation. So, with that being said, we're asking for these funds. We have community service individuals coming from parole and probation that's going to be working in the clean up. We have certified auto mechanics that's teaching the courses. We have union retired carpenters, electricians that's going to be teaching the subject as well. And we have a partner, we have a partner called Tech Force. Tech Force, an organization from Wilmington that we're partnering with, that very successful. And on top of that, we have our own grant writers, because we want this to be sustainable. We want to be able to write our own grants to keep the ball moving, because I don't want this to be a one, and that's it, with these funds. We have interested people that are interested in supporting with donations. We have a account that's set up called Beautifying of Dover. And we partnered with a accounting firm called Mitten Accounting firm in Dover, very reputable accounting firm in Dover, Mitten & Mitten. They will be oversight for the account for these funds. That law firm will communicate with the city of Dover, Human Relations, Financial Department, whoever you would have us to communicate with to keep track and keep on board with those funds. So, with that being said, you know, we're asking for these funds in order to make Dover a greener, safer, cleaner city. And, I have experience. You know, I let my work speak for itself. We've been downtown power washing on our own, being funded by a few individual citizens that does not want to be named, power washing downtown Dover and sweeping downtown Dover, and trying to do what we can on the limited amount of funds that we presently have. So, we would appreciate it if you will provide these funds for us, and we will definitely definitely do our job. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you very much. Mr. Mayor.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. President. Mr. Wilson.

Bobby Wilson

Yes, sir.

Robin R. Christiansen

Good evening. How are you, sir?

Bobby Wilson

Wonderful, and yourself?

Robin R. Christiansen

So, can you tell me the folks that you are reaching out to for job training and and the efforts that you're putting forward? The reason I'm asking that is because, you know, Dr. Sudler has chaired the Blue Ribbon Commission that the mayor established. I'm wondering if there's a possibility that if some of these folks are at risk, that they may come under the umbrella that they would seek an ongoing grant for your program with those funds, which should by all intent and purposes go back into the community to not only assist people who have these addictions, but also to establish programs so that they will not go back into addiction. My second question to you is, and you can answer this in two parts and Dr. Sudler chiming in wherever you feel so inclined to do. The Downtown Dover Partnership is part of a investment, long-term investment, for the revitalization of downtown Dover. Have have they been receptive to your program? And and I need to know what their response was. So, can you tell me about the folks that we are going to have in this program, if they might benefit from applying for the opioid This is what, round three, Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes.

Robin R. Christiansen

That's coming on on board, so that we might be able to get you more funding than what you are requesting through those opioid settlement funds. And then I'd like to know about the the Downtown Dover Partnership's response to your presentations and requests.

Bobby Wilson

Okay. The first question, Mr. Mayor. The the people that we would be helping would be reentry. Reentry from prison, SNAP program folks, and folks of disability. And we have no reentry program in Dover. I'm a part of the reentry program in Washington, D.C. and Philadelphia. With so many people that has been incarcerated that are going through hard times of getting a job because of their record. And I have a way with the employers where that they trust me with the folks that I have applied to their organization. Because I went through it. I went through a whole year trying to beat down the door of employees, I mean employers, to hire the ex-offenders. I'm a former ex-offender. The situation with me is I had a college education when I came out, and plus I already had a business when I went in, had a business when I came out, family support, community support. So, I had the wrap-around service. I had NCshank, I had my family. So, you know, and NCshank, I say that because I know that most everyone knows NCshank. So, with that, a lot of people don't have the a lot of people don't have the wrap-around service. So, we're going to help them with the wrap-around service. We're going to help them with their food stamps, their Medicaid. We have now been approved with all the medical, UnitedHealthcare, so we

Mr. Wilson

can, we can maneuver the system right here in Dover, Delaware to help the individual, the returning citizens from prison, people on SNAP, and then the the folks that's on opiate, opioid, we have to work with them from a detox standpoint before they can enter a program of of to go on someone's job sites. Because the first thing on a job site is safety, especially when you talk about construction and automomechanics, is safety first. So we have to protect, I have to protect the employer's organization, his business, as well as protect the individuals that is applying for the job. So when you look at some of the individuals on the street here, they're not fit for job right now. They're fit for rehab, detox, and then you do have individuals that are ready for job training. So we will, we will tap into individuals where they at and help them where they at, because we are, we are are flexible, I should say. And in reference to Downtown Dover Partnership, yes, uh we have the support of Downtown Dover Partnership. That's how we was able to move forward with the farmers market. Um Todd and Diane, you know, they've been great. They've been great.

Fred A. Neil

So have they offered you any financial help? Because uh this would be in their benefit and they also have deep pockets as well.

Mr. Wilson

Well, Mr. Neil, as up to this point, no. It's more, you know, moral support and because of they working on the project that they're working on, uh they tell me they tight for funds. Now, what I just heard from Kenny Anderson, there are you know, they're they really pretty much um the funds you know they have they have more funds than what they was expecting to spend. So, hopefully they might have some money left over that they could help a program like this. I would hope so. So, I'm just going to leave it at that until the next meeting.

Fred A. Neil

All right. Why are you laughing for the same reason I'm laughing? Uh, I would re- I would also suggest to you, and this uh this is a good source uh for you to uh to seek out. I think that uh, once again, those opioid monies would help you with people who need rehabilitation to put into your programs, but also be aware that the uh Dover Interfaith uh Ministers Association uh, along with Senator Paradee, are offering an expungement program. And I apologize that I don't have the date in front of me, but, you know, I think that if you were able to partner with them, uh Mr. Wilson, uh your program uh would be available to people who actually and genuinely could use the help.

Mr. Wilson

Thank you. I concur with you 100%.

Fred A. Neil

I yield, Mr. President.

David L. Anderson

All right. Thank you. Uh, Councilman Rocha. Council- and and uh, did you have uh something you wanted to quickly announce before uh Councilman Boggerty?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes, if I may. Uh uh thank you. Uh, that expungement program is October 21st. Uh, it's going to uh be at the Dover Hopes, 103 North Bradford Street. I'll provide it to the City Clerk's office and uh for distribution. And thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you for that information. Uh Councilman Rocha and Dr. Councilman Rocha and Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you Council President, or acting Council President. Um, Mr. Wilson, um have you determined uh, could you explain what the footprint for downtown that you would cover with this program?

Mr. Wilson

Would be Loockerman Street. That's my main focus is Loockerman Street, and then we'd break off streets, which would be Governors, Queen, New, um because what happen is we're going to be where the crowd is and trying to get them signed up to the program. We want to offer these young men and women opportunity to sign up for the program and pay for their entering the program. Uh we have some donors that's interested in paying their tuition. There's opportunities out here in construction, good paying jobs. I'm paying $60 an hour for just a person to push a broom on a prevailing wage job. And there's a lot of those jobs out there, because Caesar Rodney School District is building two new schools. Dover Capital School District they're building a a new school. So, um down in in Lewes um they're building schools all over the state, and we have to be able to get our Delaware folks on these projects, because I can tell you now, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, they're coming here and taking all these jobs. Look at it. You know, you know, every day all these contracts are going out. Look at the uh state website for procurement. All these projects, millions and millions and millions of dollars. And and they're they're they're not coming home. You know, so therefore we we're fueling another economy, because they spending the money making it here and taking it back to Jersey, Philadelphia, and across the bridge to New Castle.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And and the important, just to piggyback off what you're saying, the important thing um is that we have to prepare the folks here that are in our city to be get them to be prepared for these jobs. There's even more jobs than that that are coming. There are jobs that are here that no one, you know, companies can't fill those jobs. And uh we just have to transform the mindset. I think that this program is an excellent opportunity uh leading them into construction-type work. Um yeah. So I think that's uh thank you for bringing that to our attention once again. And uh, you know, I hope we can you know, hopefully, you know, get some skin in the game, get this off the ground.

Mr. Wilson

I appreciate it. And one thing I want to say in reference to the people that we going to be serving, excuse me, I yield. Sorry. Um the people that we going to be serving, you have to understand that we I know we have a Polycheck, Polytech, and they have after- afterschool program, evening continuing education program. But we have uh men and women that coming from prison, it's hard for them, some of them, to go into those programs because they feel inferior. You know, you got guys men and women have been in jail for 14, 15, 20 years. They come out, they can't even cut grass. I mean it's it's sad, because the prison is a warehouse. Because when I was at the federal prison, you had to work. If not, you be in a hole for 24 hours a day and maybe a couple of days a week you get out in a cage, in a dog cage. I was in a hole. I know what it's like. And so when they come home, you know, they want to be around people that they can relate to, they can relate to. So, we building that atmosphere for them to be comfortable, and learn, and and become a productive citizen in society.

Mr. Wilson

And I went to the hole for uh just how it's inciting a riot, because I wanted to get programs into the prison. And I had old guys that've been there 25 and 30 years said, "Son, don't do it. Don't do it." I said, "If I don't do it, how is it going to get done?" So, I put in the paperwork, got a petition signed, put in the paperwork and this and that, and that blew over my head and became a part of of the hole. So, came out and became a trustee with the warden, because I worked my way out of the hole. So, I come here today advocating for people that does not have a voice. I was at the reentry meeting at DelTech uh last week. They had a reentry meeting. And the Chief Chief of Staff of the prison system looking forward to working with me in the program in the reentry program with the prison system. So, I just want to say that.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Uh Dr. Sudler, um Councilman Boggerty, Councilwoman Arndt, and uh Dr. Sudler and Mr. Lewis? Uh, let's spend a- we did Mr. Lewis, uh glad- we're to go online first while we, know we have a strong connection. Uh, Councilman Lewis?

Fred A. Neil

Can't hear you. That's a good connection.

David L. Anderson

Uh, please, uh Councilman Lewis, please start over. Uh, because we don't hear you yet. Now we can.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. Um, I was saying um, Mr. Wilson, I think your program is a uh honorable thing and uh in particular assisting the community I think is vital. But uh I have two questions. Uh my first question is uh the city just got out of, or actually squeaked by a major deficit, and funds are kind of tight. Have you reached out to the state and federal government uh to see if you get any assistance from them?

Mr. Wilson

Presently, I'm reaching out to the county. And they have grants on the state level with DHSS that's going to be coming out, the SNAP grant that's going to be coming out. We applied it with the Wilmington program and we received the grant. That's how I got paid being in the Wilmington program. So, I don't know if Bob Hasenfratz is on the line. Are you on the line, Bob? But Bob Hasenfratz is the grant writer, and um he will he knows all the entities that have the grants in the state of Delaware, and we will be writing grants for the state of Delaware. I have been in contact with the county, um Mr. forgot the gentleman at the county, Bob, um one of the county commissioners. And uh they're interested. They're interested. Their thing is what does what what skin in the game does the city have? The the city has skin in the game, they want to make sure the city have skin in the game first, I guess. That's that was the question.

Brian E. Lewis

All right. My my second question is uh, if in fact the city was able to provide you with funding, um what's going to happen when the funding runs out? Do you have a contingency plan?

Mr. Wilson

Yes, I do. Funding will not run out. Funding will not run out. I'm a hustler.

Brian E. Lewis

The money will not run out? Money always runs out.

Mr. Wilson

Funding money will not run out.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. So, you do have a contingency plan if in fact the city did approve your request?

Mr. Wilson

Yes, sir. We have a plan. Yes, sir. We have a plan. We have three grant writers, and we have a donation plan for that. Yes, we do. If it also would have insurance. Yes, sir.

Brian E. Lewis

With that, I'm going to uh reserve my uh last comment when everybody else is done with their questions. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, uh Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, um Council Acting Council President. Um, actually, this question is for you, uh Council President, in your other in your role not of uh not committing anything, however if there are funds could this program is to be funded could it be funded through the CDBG? Can you answer that for us?

David L. Anderson

Uh there are certain specific parameters. I would have to defer that to the uh CDBG manager, program manager.

Andre M. Boggerty

Well, if those parameters are met, is it is it possible then that uh this the funding can come from there? Is that what I hear you saying?

David L. Anderson

If if it meets parameters of the CDBG, which uh which are very specific, um if that were the case, yes, but I can't guarantee that it meets the parameters.

Andre M. Boggerty

Well, from what you've heard um about the work and its effort to to address uh some very, you know, specific downtown...

David L. Anderson

I would like to uh ask uh Mrs. O'Brien to come forward because I do not want to speculate um on the specifics of a of this of a federal funding program.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. I appreciate that.

Tracey O'Brien

Hi. Tracey O'Brien, Community Development Manager. Um, that is a very good question and I would consider that a national objective that would uh refer to like public services. So, it is something that would be possible to look at. I have forwarded the application for the CDBG um uh grant to um the email address that I got. I haven't heard anything back yet though.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. All right. That that helps me uh start the discussion again. All right, thank you. Thank you Council President. Thank you for uh Mrs. O'Brien and thank you Mr. Wilson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Dr. Sudler and then uh Councilwoman Arndt.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you acting uh Council President uh Anderson, and thank you uh Mr. Wilson for your presentation, and I want to say, if I haven't said it uh publicly, thank you for your entrepreneurship. I am a recipient of your entrepreneurship and professional from nice haircut here, a fresh look too, coming back from Georgia, uh HBCU, coming back and you allowing me to cut hair uh in your shop. And I want to say thank you on behalf of of the youth back then, and I'm sure you're still doing things for the youth now. So, that leads to my question. With your program, are there any age restrictions for the youth? Um with our opioid youth disorder task force, uh it is our aim and objective to focus on the youth. We have realized that there is a gap in services when it comes to opioids and some of the challenges and the family unit as a whole dealing with the youth. And I heard you mention a lot about the youth. Can you elaborate on whether or not um what kind of opportunities would be for the youth and whether it's like the age range, under 18, uh could you elaborate on that for me please?

Mr. Wilson

Yes, um there's a a program called YouthBuild, and it's with Wilmington Housing Authority and it's um supported uh by government funds. Uh that is a program that we want to start here in Dover. I am now speaking with the Dover Housing Authority uh about that, but we have a construction company, and uh on a on a project of my own, I'm planning on creating opportunities for a YouthBuild. And that age group will be 16 to 24. It's been a very successful program um in Wilmington. I worked with it in Wilmington, and uh that is something because the opportunity for youth to have uh job opportunities here is is is short. So, we want to create something that they can be able to use their hands. One thing about it, you learn how to use your hands, like my father said, you'll never go broke.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, absolutely, I concur. So, you are saying that there are opportunities for individuals under 18? Okay, thank you. Um, also with the Exhibit E uh use uh for remediation of the abatement of opioid, there's a major section there. Uh, we're having a meeting like I said on the 7th of October. I strongly encourage you to come and anyone else that's in the community to come uh to our meeting uh for not only future funds, but to understand the process itself and what we are doing under the mayor's leadership and administration, what we are doing uh to meet those mandates. Um, so I also will offer that you partner or link with the Delaware State Housing Authority, as we know that they are looking to do something at the Sheraton and converting that into wrap around services. And then you talk about wrap around services-

Mr. Wilson

I'm meeting with them tomorrow.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. I ain't going to say no more. Thank you, that's it. Ain't no more I can say. Thank you, I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. So, I'm fully supportive of cleaning up downtown. I think that that's definitely needed. I'm also fully supportive of job skills and job training. Um help me understand how these two things are connected in your proposal. So, it's an 8-week program, so we're starting off with with soft skills and cleaning up and then connecting to established programs that offer job skills training?

Mr. Wilson

No, we are established. We know we are we are we will be the established program that we offer the job training. We have auto mechanics, we have union retired union carpenters and masons that will be teaching the program. And furthermore, we're partnering with the union uh with Local 199. We're going to be partnering with we're going to be partnering with the bricklayer union out of Pennsylvania who's looking for a location here in Delaware. They just opened up a location up in Bear for training. So, they want to have a location across the bridge uh that can handle Kent County and Sussex County. And so when I met with them last week, uh our location will be the location.

Tricia K. Arndt

Okay. And that's a property that you currently own?

Mr. Wilson

That's a property that I have that we are currently uh hold.

Tricia K. Arndt

As a suggestion, when you submit your application, I think you should have letters of commitment from the Local 199. You mentioned TechForce as a also a partner? I would advise you to have a letter of commitment from them as well.

Mr. Wilson

Sweet. And uh it's Monte 22 on...

Unknown Speaker

Why? Protect 4. Because I have a letter, too, from already.

Tricia K. Arndt

Just submit with the application. I think that would strengthen the application. And you understand we're not making any decisions tonight. You would submit an application, staff would review it, check references, and check all the facts and data, and then it would be brought back to us. So

Unknown Speaker

Oh. Oh. Try.

Tricia K. Arndt

thank you for your time. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for recognizing me. Were you under the impression that we were going to take action upon this discussion prior to you coming? I noticed you're disappointed.

Unknown Speaker

Well, I I I'm just wondering. I've been here three or four times, and um and I'm still spending money. You know, I'm still spending money, still holding down the buildings, buildings. And and I still have people ready to be trained. And if I don't get it from you, it's coming out of my pocket like it's been coming out of my pocket. We need to get this started. If we get it started, we can have a snowball effect.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So let me ask you this question. Because I know the last time that you were here, um Council President Neil had asked you to provide the application and all of the and meet the criteria, and all the necessary um questions to be answered then. And I think that you have already done that. Has am Is that correct?

Unknown Speaker

I can did an application. I when I submitted and I'm speaking with, I'm doing business with Miss Debbie, Debbie. Debbie.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Do we have the application on file?

Unknown Speaker

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Um Council President Acting Council President Anderson because I have Okay. Acting Council President Anderson, uh could you um defer that question to um the proper individual to answer that in regards to whether or not we have their application on file?

David L. Anderson

Now, for the the application for the community development funds or the other um or receiving funds? Receiving funds, sir. Mr. Duca, do you have any information on that? Um because I know there's application on the one of the funds, and I I don't know the status of it.

Sharon Duca

The only application I'm aware of is the one that's in the packet for the economic development funds. But I would like to know that uh those funds that application was closed in June by council, so it would need to be brought back in order to consider anyone for it.

David L. Anderson

All right. And we'll also know that the that the motion um did not apply to the applications that were currently being considered, only new ones. Just to just just to know that. Uh so And that was done so not to interfere with the existing application. Um yes. Uh

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for I may continue. Um Acting Council President, I would like to stay for the record uh that I've heard uh all that I need to hear, and I support this initiative because like uh Mr. Wilson said, this is the third time uh that he's been here, if not the fourth. And I was under impression that we were voting tonight um based on the previous time he was here when Council President Neil had stated, "Hey Mr. Wilson, get everything you need to give to us um and we'll be ready." Well, I'm not using exact words, "We'll be ready to proceed." But it implied that that's all he needed to do, and the next step, or the next time he came in front of us, we was going to vote on this. So I was I'm ready to move for the record. You have my support, and if we won't If we don't vote tonight, it won't be because I'm not in support of voting tonight and supporting your initiative. Um this is the third time, I don't I don't know how much more that we need to hear from you uh to get the money, so um I support you. I yield.

David L. Anderson

The uh Councilman Rocha, you're recognized.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah. I agree with what Dr. Sudler said, but uh how come this wasn't put on the legislation just support that You know what I mean?

David L. Anderson

Yes. I um it It was not It was not I was not asked about this being on the legislation. Um it it may be because we are considering a uh a supplemental budget in October. Um and just just going to let you know that. Okay. So that may be um part of the uh the reasoning to to see if this uh goes and is uh referred to be part of that. Um

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I yield.

David L. Anderson

Councilman Boggerty, and then Councilman Lewis. And then the our mayor.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes. Thank you, Acting Council President.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh, I would just like, um, kind of a a question that can help, I don't know, right now uh, agreeing with with um my colleagues to the left of me. Um, however, is there a opportunity, because if if there's the fund is already closed, I understand if the language is about existing contracts, already existing uh, applications. My question is is I like I like peace, not not that that not that I avoid conflict or conversation, but when there's an easier path uh, to get to where you need to be, I follow I follow I look for those. Could it be that the easier path um, would be to take whatever application that's been submitted and forward it to C D CDBG? We've already heard loosely, not a commitment, loosely that what has been presented already falls under the umbrella, it probably meets the meet those guidelines. Now, I don't know, uh, uh, you know, charge me, I don't know the complete CDBG application process, and what what it entails, and and the information that you've already provided. But could there be a a quick forwarding of an email uh, of that application to the CDBG, and follow whatever process? So that way, we won't have to look for additional funding per se, because just, you know, because of the funds that may or may not exist in the CDBG CDBG now or in the future. So, in short, would it be a simple path I get it, you know, you're keep coming back, I get it, and where I I don't want you to have to do that, but for for It looks like it's something that's going to happen and it may not happen tonight, but could we just ask him to apply for the CDBG, so it so that would be the easier path?

David L. Anderson

Uh the um I with the CDBG, uh once that application goes through, it then has to be reviewed, scored, and then come back to Parks, Recreation, Community Enhancement for a vote of approval, and then go to So so it still has to come back through a path.

Andre M. Boggerty

So both paths will have to come back. Correct?

David L. Anderson

Correct.

Andre M. Boggerty

So, but my, but, but now with the CDBG, there's not as much question of budget because the money would probably be that the money could potentially be there.

David L. Anderson

I don't know if money exists for that at the moment, but we'll we'll find out when the CDBG CDBG manager um comes stuff for later. Um and

Andre M. Boggerty

I I Okay, I'll I'll yield and we'll make that decision later. Thank you for the clarity.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Um Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I would yield the remainder of my time to Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

I was just I don't have a comment.

David L. Anderson

I I didn't see her hand go up. Okay. We'll go to uh Councilman

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Then I'll yield to Councilman uh Lewis because he is online and like you said it's uh a period of time.

Brian E. Lewis

I've been raising my hand for the last 20 minutes. Um I don't know if Mr. Wilson was aware of that um, but um most of the money right now is allocated for the Garrison Oak entry project. And, as Ms. Duca had indicated, um the grant programs closed by motion back in June and voted by council in July. So,

Brian E. Lewis

I think that we would um have to have a budget amended. This This isn't something that can be done overnight, and I'll defer to uh our finance director, Ms. Courtney, uh to elaborate. Ms. Courtney?

David L. Anderson

Uh you please. Mrs. Courtney, you're recognized.

Courtney

Hi, forgive me. Um, I'm not going to walk down. Have a little trouble walking. Uh, but uh, I would concur with Councilman Lewis. We would require a budget amendment and the application process would need to be reopened. I'd like to note that

David L. Anderson

That's fine.

David L. Anderson

Uh, I would note that it wouldn't have to be reopened because the the motion covered

Courtney

The uh, June 22nd at the Council Committee of the Whole, there was a vote to end the application process. It was approved on July 13th. The date of the application for this particular application is July 15th. Okay? Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Okay.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you, Courtney.

David L. Anderson

So yes. Now we will at this time Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for recognizing me. Um, quite often in council, when we're at some kind of deliberation of this magnitude, where there's somewhat a consensus that we want to move a project along, uh, but there are some minor adjustments that need to be made in order to approve it, um, I think sometimes we like to approve it pending on if there's money available, so that it will expedite the initiative. And if the money is there, then it's already approved. If it's not, then it's not. But then you won't have to come back if the money is there for the fourth or fifth time. Um, and we could just move it along. And now, I'm going to lean on your infamous wisdom with parliamentary procedures and the process, uh, Council, Acting Council President Anderson, because I have to admit, you have a lot of insight when it comes, uh, to that domain. So, in your knowledge,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

is there any way that if we wanted to do something of that magnitude, that that would be permissible um as of today? Can Could Would you elaborate on that? I'm leaning on your your wisdom. And you do have some wisdom. Well, I admit it.

David L. Anderson

Well, thank you, sir. The um what I would think would be that we would refer this to staff for consideration in the budget amendment, which uh which we plan to bring forward in in the next month. Um that that would be the motion that I would particularly make. Um but it's not I'm not saying that's the only path forward, but it was since you asked, that's the motion I would make.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And so, in layman's terms, can you explain that uh to some individuals that may not What? know or hear, uh, you know? Can you explain that What? What will we do if we did do that?

David L. Anderson

Well, like uh Councilman Lewis said, um the money in the Economic Development Fund, uh a lot of it was um utilized for the uh construction at Garrison, or at least set aside for that. Um not necessarily used for that. It was set aside for that, because we did not know if we were able going to be able to get a grant that was applied for by Mr. Lyon to uh pay for that project. That project That grant was approved, and that means that we will have have a budget amendment to to basically allocate the grant money for that project, instead of the economic development money for the project. Therefore, the money, uh at least part of that money, will come back to the Economic Development Fund. All that needs to be handled in a budget amendment. We were uh looking at when to do that, and the and this through some other projects, uh we decided, through consultation with the city manager, to that that would be brought forward in in October.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. So it sounds like this could be potentially approved then, in October, and October's just right around the corner. I I would be amenable, uh as one of the representatives of the 4th district in which the services are going to be rendered in this area, to wait until October, which is right around the corner. Um, thank you for your thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it, and I now yield.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

We could refer to staff to straighten it in that.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And and if you help me out with a motion to that point, um, after or maybe after additional discussions, but I think, you know, we can do the motion, I'll definitely second it.

David L. Anderson

Sounds reasonable. Um or maybe uh, and I'm going to go to Mrs. Arndt, and then our mayor.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. Just just to clarify the application that we're talking about, it is in its entirety within this packet? Are Is there any additional information that has not been shared in this packet?

David L. Anderson

It It's there?

Unknown Speaker

It's there.

Tricia K. Arndt

The information in the packet is That's your application.

Unknown Speaker

Yes, it is, ma'am.

Tricia K. Arndt

Okay. I would say that it is not complete. And it It does not meet the requirements. We spent a lot of time putting in the effort of outlining each specific thing that would be required for an application. Proof of operation for 2 years or more, location map and street address, zoning confirmation, letters of support, um, progress reports. So there's If you If you read through what's required, and I encourage you to do that, fill out all the 500-word description, just fill out the application. And then the staff reviews the information, and verifies that information, and provides a report back to council. That's what I'm looking for, and beyond that I'm not willing to support. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Thank you very much. Um, uh, Mr. Mayor?

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. President. I will defer I'll yield to Councilman Boggerty as long as he gives me the microphone back.

Andre M. Boggerty

I'll always give you the microphone back, your Honor. Your Honor.

David L. Anderson

Councilman Boggerty, you're recognized.

Andre M. Boggerty

I appreciate you. In the meantime, just in the meantime, while you're waiting, could would it would it would it be wise to also submit your application to the CDBG? In the meantime. So So that way, you have more than one bite at the apple. I was I was trying to get that. So in the meantime, while you're doing that, do both. Hypothetically speaking, just in case there's funding in the CDBG. I yield. I'm not I I'm just offering advice. I'm not telling you what to do. Okay? I advised that. I yield. Okay.

Unknown Speaker

Thank you.

Unknown Speaker

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Mr. Mayor?

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. President. Uh Mr. Wilson, as you know, uh I think that you understand that council supports uh the program that you've brought forth. Uh much to sometimes my dismay, we have process that we have to go through. And I think it would be in the best interest of your program, and its continuation as part of the uh the city funding it, that we follow the process. Much as we probably I think a lot of folks in the room would like to write you a check now, but the process doesn't allow us to do so. But I think if you follow through on the request that Ms. Arndt had, we we determine a source of revenue that is available for us to give you those funds, and that a a an appropriate uh committee action form put together by our staff based on the information that you give us uh that we can move forward on this project. So, uh don't be discouraged uh because we haven't said no, but we can't say yes. I yield the floor.

Unknown Speaker

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Our our uh our process is sometimes annoying, but it's served us well. Um we and it served the organization well, because unlike other municipalities, unlike the state of Delaware and and other places, we have not had any scandals or anything of that nature because we handle it so well. And it's um and it But it is a um I'm going to get go to uh Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Now, I just like to uh state that I just went through various documents uh that I have before me, and uh Councilwoman Arndt is correct. The application has to meet the grant standards in the spirit of fairness. So, Mr. Wilson, I would go through the paperwork with a fine-tooth comb to make sure you have your Ts crossed and your Is dotted. And I'll leave it at that. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you very much. And uh we have uh uh public comment? Let's uh to throw out Mr. Thank you. Uh Mr. Faust. And then we have online uh Ms. uh Shellfall.

Unknown Speaker

I think it's, you know, not against the uh proposal. However, quick question. What's the price tag on this? I mean, you gave a nice speech, but what's the price tag? Second of all, uh cleaning up the streets of Lockerman,

Public Commenter

Uh what does our city police do, clean the streets or the sidewalks? The sidewalks in normal development, we have to clean and make sure they're free of snow. Does that fall on the city to clean the street or the sidewalks downtown Dover, or does it go to uh to the uh vendors that own the uh are renting or own the property?

Public Commenter

Another thing is uh we were talking about a budget amendment. For the citizens who are on fixed income and most vulnerable, a budget amendment should not put any additional cost for fees onto the citizens of Dover.

Public Commenter

And I said this before: The city is $7 million in the hole. We have our police officers are going to binding arbitration because you don't have the funds to give them the raise that they're looking for. So,

Public Commenter

if you have surplus money, it's good to do things to support the community and stuff like that. But if you're hemorrhaging money, you know, unless we correct our issues, we may be $14 million by the time we come to uh the next budget. So we need to look cautiously.

Public Commenter

I'm not against you know helping people out and getting jobs and all that, but if the city doesn't have the funds, it should go to state or federal government or the county. I mean, we probably need equipment in our own city for trucks and our other department heads, so we got to evaluate everything. Thank you for your time.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. And uh and Ms. uh Smack? She can if you can give her the microphone? Thank you.

Smack

I just have a question. Could you uh do a workshop so that people who are applying for these grants know how to properly um apply for them? Do a workshop for them so that they can know. Like they do in other cities.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. And uh we can get to Ms. Paul?

Michelle Paul

Hi, good evening everyone, Michelle Paul, Dover, Delaware. Um, the program in itself um is a great program. I think um one of the things that my concern is is, A, we're already in a deficit; B, um City Manager Duca had basically stated, you know, during the budget process that there the funding there is no point or finding the money from anywhere.

Michelle Paul

With this city having the deficit that it has and the rates uh and user fees going up across the board, I don't think it's fair to constituents right now to pull that money if you could not use it to save them costs on an increase on rates. Uh furthermore with the process, I think um

Michelle Paul

Ms. Maule has stated that, you know, that as far as the application process, when that application or when those funds open back up, will those applications be um able to be sought by all organizations, not just one individual organization, because there are many grassroots organizations that are out here that are actually working towards an initiative that the city actually has and for the issues that they're curing?

Michelle Paul

And then finally, you know, will this funding be um tracked for spending to make sure that the money is being spent and geared towards the initiative? Are we making sure that the initiative is uh 100% going the way that it's earmarked and the way that it was applied for? I think, and that's the main concern, to make sure that constituents and ratepayers are not going to absorb the cost of more

Michelle Paul

um abused funding from organizations that are not doing things properly. So I think that's the main concern um, you know, with constituents at this time. But the the plan in itself is a great idea and, you know, hopefully, you know, the funding will become available in the near future. But hopefully that door be opened up to all organizations that again have um a stake and, you know, have the same goal.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Uh further public comments, Mr. Hall.

Doug Hall

Doug Hall, Dover, Delaware. Good evening council, good evening community. Um, I'm on board with Smack. You guys, we need that. There's got to be some kind of event to show people that how to write grants, because some people are unfamiliar with it. Um, and if you don't do that, you're just kicking the can down the road.

Doug Hall

And let's be honest, the budget is in trouble because money is being spent. Why are we, why is the city spending money on the air stuff? What, for millionaires and billionaires to bring in dollar signs? Because that's where you're going. You guys know, there's a moratorium right now. But spend the money on the little businesses. The city sold their soul to corporate businesses. Tax breaks, permit breaks, we don't do that to the little guys. And the little guys are coming in, you guys are condemning their buildings. Properties are condemning their buildings because you got very overzealous inspectors. That's why we're in the deficit.

Doug Hall

You got police officers writing tickets who do not show up to court, so guess what? The ticket gets tossed. There goes city money once again. I just saw Wawa, so was our police chief. A young man walked right out the front door. He asked me, "You don't got to steal." You know what he said to me? "I don't give a I don't care if he sees me." And I didn't even know who he was talking about until he walked past the police chief. I had it right on my phone. Your police chief is is in there ordering food while we're walk while he's walking out the door.

Doug Hall

That's the problem with this city. Let's be real. So Mr. Anderson saying no scandal, I respect you because you do show up. No scandals? Let's not go there. Because there's a lot we hear. I know who shows up. Mr. Lewis, Mr. Sudler, you do show up to events. There's a lot of faces here I don't see. Let's be honest. Let's not get up here with no scandal and all that BS. We're done we're done here, man. We're done here.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. And um now uh next? Yes, please come forward. Ms. May? Mrs. May?

Mrs. May

Pardon me, man. I just have one question. Um cuz it's it's baffling me that we're in a deficit, but how is Dover bringing money in in order to clear the deficit? Because like I said, if you go down Loockerman, there are businesses that are closed. There are a little bracelet store that was open when we first moved down here. My daughter wanted to go to it. It was closed a week later. I mean, and it sold really beautiful stuff. I mean, we're we're seeing businesses go, and we're not seeing businesses come back.

Mrs. May

I've even thought about opening the the restaurant that closed, the bar and grill and all that stuff. Yeah, I changed my mind on that because there's no parking, and there's people outside that wouldn't, you know, it would make my property outside look horrible. And I'd have to invite them in to give them a free meal because that's the kind of person I am. So I'd be selling my soul to the devil coming here. You know, free food for everybody and it's on me. Um, but I'd like to know where exactly are we going with bringing money into Dover, because it seems like it's going out and we're spending money on projects that we can't even cash our own checks on.

Mrs. May

And we need to figure out what we need to do in order to be able to cash those checks and make sure, you know, the bank clears them, because it doesn't seem like it's going that way. And I'm not seeing any improvements, cuz you guys are getting my taxes, and I'm not seeing, you know, the use of it. And like I said, there are two council members, maybe three, that that, you know, understand what I'm going through, and understand what my neighbors are going through, cuz I take care of the elderly in my community. So if they need food, guess what, I go spend my money that, you know, I make to go make sure that they have food in their house, just like my kids would.

Mrs. May

So, you know, I'm I'm showing community, and I'm not seeing community given back by going, okay, there's a business down the street, yes, we're supporting small businesses. Yes, we're supporting the community itself by, you know, going out, helping pick trash on the weekend. See, we have these groups that are doing it, but where are the council members? Where where where is

Mrs. May

our local government going out and and picking stuff up? Me and Sudler went and shoveled snow off of people's driveways and sidewalks. I mean, we we need to do something about this, and we need to show where we can bring money in and be able to complete projects without causing hassle and traffic and more homeless people and and more abandoned buildings. We need to get ourselves together here,

Mrs. May

because it all is one big mumbled mess. And as my husband would say, you keep mumbling. I'm mumbling because you want to know what, it's true. There's different issues that I'm very very passionate about that, yeah, as a council person, I would definitely go, okay, well, what's going on here? Why aren't we all agreeing on this? Cuz nothing's easy. Tell my daughter that: Nothing's ever easy till you work for it, then it's easy.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Anyone else? And your

Michael Scheinbaum

My name is Michael Scheinbaum. I'm the owner

David L. Anderson

Can you say that in the microphone, please, for the recording?

Michael Scheinbaum

My name is Michael Scheinbaum, I'm the owner of Crispy and Polly Family Entertainment. Um tomorrow marks the third year that I have lived in Dover. Um I had dreams of being a Dover-based business, and the reality is that I am a Delaware-based Dover business based in Dover.

Michael Scheinbaum

Um my wife and I primarily do children's entertainment, we're balloon twisters, we're um we're clowns, we're magicians, we're a variety of things. Point is though, we do very well as a business because we serve all of Delaware and eastern Maryland, but if you look at our market, it's like a donut. We have New Castle all over the place. We have Sussex County all over the place. Eastern Maryland, beautiful. Kent County, crickets. I mean we have some, we have some representation in Kent County and Dover, but it's limited. And um there's a point to this, and

Michael Scheinbaum

I have a hard time, despite the fact of being five-star members of the CDCC and of doing everything we can to be part of this, we have a 100% tip um policy where wherever we go, 100% of our tips go to the charity or nonprofit of the client's choosing. And when they don't choose one, we donate all of our tips to wherever it is. Big I'm I have to choose my words very carefully, what I do in December,

Michael Scheinbaum

but 50% of everything we do in December is pro bono. And we do all of this because we do very well at what we do, because of everything we do outside of of Kent County. And were it not for that, I don't know if I could keep the house that I've had for 3 years. I may very well be homeless. And but for the incredible work of people like like Pastor Pastor Hodge and Teresa Campbell Harris, Neighbors in Need,

Michael Scheinbaum

I could be homeless too. But for the grace of God, my privilege, my anxiety, and everything else, um I do my best to help a community that really is is seems to just have a real antipathy towards the homeless. And so I'm here, and I don't think I'm moving from Dover, but I want to have pride in being here, being with all of you, being your neighbor, and everything else. I want to love Dover as much as I've come to love Delaware and Delmarva. I really really want it. But I want to see that compassion that I feel that I'm attracted to with the People's Church certainly has that. I want to feel that love of my neighbors, and I'm I'm I'm waiting to hear it from you guys. So that's it.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Thank you very much. All right, now, and that's all I see, so uh what is the pleasure of the committee?

David L. Anderson

Uh Dr. Sudler, did you wish to refer this to uh staff for review, yeah, for for for possible funding?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yes, thank you. Absolutely. Um based on the fact that the application is incomplete, um which I do support the initiative, um based on the fact that it's incomplete and needs to be completed, I would suggest that uh we refer to staff or and give Mr. Wilson enough time to complete the application, and also submit both entities, and I think he's also amenable to that, and if there's anything that we can do, um don't don't hesitate to reach out to staff if there's any questions, you know, in filling out that application. We want to see everyone successful. And so, um that's my motion, that we refer to staff and give Mr. Wilson an opportunity to complete the application so that he can get approved.

David L. Anderson

Is there a second?

Andre M. Boggerty

I'll make a second.

David L. Anderson

It's been moved by Dr. Sudler, and seconded by Councilman Boggerty. Is there discussion? All in favor?

Council Members

Aye. Aye. Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed? The motion the motion carries unanimously.

David L. Anderson

That takes us to, finally to the uh Parks and Recreation and Community Enhancement Committee. Um the chair woman Hall had a family emergency and properly notified But then she's not here, right. She's thought had a family emergency and properly notified uh Council President. Um there is only one item on the agenda, so at this time I would uh entertain a motion to uh adopt the agenda.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So moved. So moved to adopt the agenda as presented.

Tricia K. Arndt

Second.

David L. Anderson

It's been moved and seconded. Uh any discussion or amendment? All in favor?

Council Members

Aye. Aye.

David L. Anderson

Is there are there any civilian members for Parks, Recreation, Community Enhancement here? Or online? Okay. All right. Um so the first item is consideration of withdrawal/reallocation of CDBG funds for People's Community Center renovation project. Um Mr. or Mrs. O'Brien, community development manager? Yeah. Yeah. Councilman Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thank you for recognizing me uh Acting Council President Anderson. Just wanted to say that it appears that the staff recommendation is to approve the withdrawal of the previously approved $40,000. Um can can we explain that a little bit?

David L. Anderson

Uh that that will be her presentation.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Oh, okay. Thanks.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Um see, at this time uh uh Councilman Rocha is uh is recusing. Uh all right, now you may continue. Thank you.

Debbie O'Brien

Good evening. I'm Debbie O'Brien, Community Development Manager. One of my responsibilities is to administer the Community Development Block Grant funding that the city receives from HUD annually. I'm here tonight to present the facts that have influenced my recommendation to withdraw this funding and to explain why. Based on the information gathered through my review, I believe this is the prudent course of action.

Debbie O'Brien

I want to emphasize that this recommendation was not made lightly. My responsibility is not only to help the city use its CDBG resources to address community needs, but also to protect the city's ability to continue receiving those federal funds. When the city accepts CDBG funding, it also accepts responsibility for ensuring that those funds are administered in accordance with federal requirements. Failure to do so can expose the city to corrective action, repayment of funds, and in more serious circumstances, it can jeopardize future CDBG funding.

Debbie O'Brien

Um I have not found any other subrecipient in similar circumstances. When the environmental review process entered its comment period with the notice of intent to request release of funds, I did so in good faith and with the expectation that the project would continue through the normal CDBG process. However, the public comments received during that process raised concerns that warranted a closer look at the overall feasibility of the project.

Debbie O'Brien

In response, I conducted additional research and reviewed the project more broadly, not simply from an environmental standpoint, but also in terms of its documentation, procurement, contractual obligations, project readiness, and compliance with CDBG requirements. What I found led me to believe that council should have the opportunity to consider these facts before the city proceeds with the request for release of funds. In reaching this recommendation, I focused on five fundamental questions. One, programmatic: Is the project capable of achieving its CDBG objective within a reasonable timeframe? Multiple funding sources have been identified

Tracey Harvey

identified for renovation of this space over several years, while the proposed renovation has not been completed. This history, together with the absence of renovation, has not been completed. Oh, I'm sorry. This history, together with the absence of a clearly demonstrated timeline for completion and operation of the proposed program, led me to question whether the project is sufficiently defined and whether the organization has the resources necessary to complete it and achieve the intended CDBG objectives.

Tracey Harvey

Two. Procurement. Has the organization demonstrated adherence to procurement standards? The question The review identified recurring deficiencies in procurement and supporting documentation. Despite repeated reminders regarding the city's requirement to obtain at least three quotations for purchases exceeding $10,000, and to follow the city's purchasing policy, those deficiencies remain unresolved.

Tracey Harvey

Three. Contractual. Has the organization fulfilled its contractual obligations? The review identified multiple instances in which the subrecipient did not demonstrate adherence to obligations established in the executed agreement. Based on these unresolved contractual performance and documentation concerns, I determined that extending the agreement was not warranted.

Tracey Harvey

Four. Compliance. Can the city reasonably assure that the project could be implemented in compliance with applicable federal guidelines? For purposes of this review, compliance includes not only meeting individual program requirements, but also the city's ability to provide appropriate oversight and assurance that those requirements will continue to be met throughout the life of the project. The expanded review identified concerns regarding regarding the integrity of past performance, including an instance that conveyed the appearance of impropriety. The organization's ability to demonstrate achievement of the intended CDBG national objective through reliable, measurable method methods is also a concern. Adequate procedures and documentation have not been demonstrated for identifying eligible beneficiaries, verifying eligibility, and measuring outcomes necessary to establish compliance with the applicable national objective.

Tracey Harvey

Five. Implementation. Is there a defined and reliable path to completion and provision of services? Based on the programmatic, procurement, contractual, and compliance concerns identified, I did not have sufficient assurance that the project can be successfully implemented or that the proposed workforce development program can be sustained. The project has not progressed to implementation within the established performance period. Not And required reporting and supporting documentation remain outstanding. Procurement and contractual obligations have not been consistently demonstrated, and the project has relied on multiple potential funding sources without a clearly demonstrated sustainable funding plan. Recent reductions in grant-in-aid funding, along with the denial of the economic development grant funding, also raise additional concerns regarding the sustainability of the proposed program. Collectively, these factors indicate that there is not currently a sufficiently defined or reliable path to completion of the renovation and provision of the proposed services. My responsibility is to ensure that the city's federal funds are used for eligible activities supported by adequate documentation and administered in accordance with the requirements that come with accepting those funds. For the reasons I've outlined tonight, I recommend that the current CDBG allocation to this project be withdrawn. And I'm happy to answer any questions.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Thank you very much. Uh, questions? Uh, Mrs. Arndt, Councilwoman?

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. And I I appreciate that information that was certainly helpful. That's the first time hearing of it. I think if I had been able to review that beforehand, I would feel more comfortable um in making this decision. Um based on what's in the in the packet, um seeing phase one environmental site assessment, my initial thought on the issue was that there were contaminants within the building, you know, lead, asbestos, what have you, and that the um the renovation could not proceed, or at least could not proceed in the budget that had been outlined initially. I thought maybe there needs to be some environmental remediation before moving forward uh and that the project could not be completed um with $40,000. So that was I came into this with with the wrong impression. Um so the information that you have have provided um so they did not get three quotes? They should have gotten three quotes and they did not. Is that one of the issues?

Tracey Harvey

That That is correct.

Tricia K. Arndt

Did they get any quotes?

Tracey Harvey

There was one quote, and I received every other page of that quote with the invoice.

Tricia K. Arndt

Okay. So, in- insufficient documentation, um did not get the quote needed. You mentioned the executed agreement and um contractual obli- obligations were not met. Could you review what those obligations were that were not met?

Fred A. Neil

Page six to pass.

Tracey Harvey

The agreement required the subrecipient to administer administer the project in a manner satisfactory to the city and consistent with applicable standards. The agreement required submission of monthly progress reports. None were received despite my requests on February 5th, '26 and August 13th, '26. The agreement provides that substandard performance, as determined by the grantee, that is us, constitutes noncompliance. If action to correct such substandard performance is not taken by the subrecipient within a reasonable time, contract suspension or termination procedures will be initiated. The performance period ended June 30th, and no permit applications for the project have been received by the city prior to the expiration. And to this day, I still think there aren't any permits, still. The agreement required compliance with applicable federal, state, and local laws, regulations, and policies. The subrecipient did not demonstrate compliance with the requirements of either the city's purchasing policy or uniform guidance at 2 CFR Part 200.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you for that. So you did not receive monthly reports, there were no permits that had been applied for as of June 30th. Um and have you had any um conversations or meetings with the applicant to

Tracey Harvey

Yes.

Tricia K. Arndt

push them to move forward?

Tracey Harvey

Yes, I met with him on May 26th. Um let me see where is that. And I followed up with an email. Um there were several emails that I had um for the procurement part of it. October 7th, I mentioned the requirement to have purchases exceeding 10,000 to have three quotes. I also mentioned that in my follow-up email on May 27th. I reinforced the requirement to follow the city's purchasing policy on May 27th and the 10th of June. Um And I and and I have several emails throughout where I had tried to help him push this to get it to go forward and and just was not. A lot of times I got ignored.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. I I appreciate that. Um I was disappointed to see this on the agenda. Um I certainly was hoping that the money would be spent uh as it was intended um for a project that we had reviewed and wanted to pursue. Um so it's disappointing that all of these conditions have not been met to to continue with the funding. So um with that, I I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Yes. Thank you. Uh uh, Councilwoman. Uh, Councilman Boggerty, you're recognized.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um thank you, Mr. Council President. Um you made a statement about other source funding. Um could you clarify that? Uh you you kind of enumerated that with other with other topics. Can you just clarify other source funding?

Tracey Harvey

The organization was previously awarded 40,000 in ARPA funding for the same, or substantially similar renovation project, described as renovation of a bowling alley to provide space for case management and counseling. Uh It According to the ARPA application, the members were to contribute matching funds of $152,978. Documentation only shows $1,642 in matching disbursements. The 2025 CDBG application identified the church endowment as the source for matching funds. In a subsequent conversation, Dr. Hodge indicated that the endowment would have to be used to complete the project if sufficient grant funding was not received, and acknowledged that this would not be sustainable long-term, since the revenues from the endowment were funding its operations. At the Legislative Committee meeting on February 26, 2026, Dr. Hodge mentioned that they had received money from a private foundation to completely renovate a space that would be segregated for these different groups, mentioning Neighborhood Partners, Department of Labor, and Polytech, to hold workshops and case management. No additional information was provided regarding money from a private foundation. In an email on April 6, 2026, Dr. Hodge purported that the governor's office had funded a renovation project in the basement of People's Church in order to convert one large space into private offices and a conference room for training and case management. I called the governor's office, and they had no knowledge of this funding commitment. They did mention the Grant-in-Aid, um which I looked up also, um but that's unrelated. The 2026 CDBG application identified the requested $40,000 is only 5% of an $800,000 project, with the remaining $600,000 to be provided by other sources. Even if the full award was granted, as proposed in the 2025 to 2029 Consolidated Plan, that would be $200,000, $40,000 for five years. I still felt that there should be more transparency about the other funding sources. That's all I have.

Andre M. Boggerty

Um has there has there been any other inquiry about any other I think you just answered that, but specifically funds for that that we may have allocated, has there been any other questions about

Tracey Harvey

Yes, we allocated $153,978 in the first ARPA round. And of that, $40,000 was for the renovations that we're talking about.

Tracey Harvey

But none of none of the money was spent on that.

Andre M. Boggerty

Is it clear, do we know where the money was spent?

Tracey Harvey

Yes, I have all the receipts. It was the showers, the kitchen, um the sprinkler system was the main thing. Um fire alarm and sprinkler system was the main expenses.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. Thank you. I I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Which were renovations in fact that we had budgeted for, is that correct?

Tracey Harvey

I'm sorry?

Fred A. Neil

Uh those were renovations that we had put in and authorized, is that correct?

Tracey Harvey

Yes.

Fred A. Neil

All right. Thank you. Uh Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for recognizing me. So it sounds like um there was a lot of noncompliance. Um What What were they in compliance with, so what did they meet? What did they meet? What were they compliant with? Yeah. Correct.

Tracey Harvey

What were they compliant with?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah. Correct.

Tracey Harvey

I can't think of anything. Timing, um the this the documentation was always uh I always had to work with, you know, Dr. Hodge to get the documentation up to where I needed it to be. Um a lot of times I was bombarded with dozens of pages of of stuff that I had to go through and sort through like it was I I honestly, I can't think of anything other than putting in the application. And their application for the '26 funding was over two weeks too late.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Sounds like it was very challenging. Do you encounter this kind of uh of uh pretty prevalent with these kinds of encounters with other organizations of similar that we provide money to? In other words, is this normal or abnormal?

Tracey Harvey

This is very abnormal. I do have like, you know, I will correct somebody when they send me something that's wrong. I'll I'll say, send me the right thing, and, you know, I'll tell them what they need. But, um in several instances, I've been I've repeatedly had to ask for some the same thing over, and I didn't get it still.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So, line of communication was was not uh was not effective?

Tracey Harvey

Correct. I just I never received responses a lot of times.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Because I'm uh I'm very concerned about that, um because city council has been depicted, as well as the mayor, as being lazy thinkers, if I'm if I can quote it right, "lazy thinkers." That's that's the word. Referred to as lazy thinkers. And you know, at at some point, I was saying to myself, are we lazy thinkers? Or you know, you know, what's But then I'm hearing all this, and I'm like, wow. You know, is is this something that is because one person don't hold himself accountable for their lack of? And so, I'm very surprised to hear that, although we're referred to as lazy thinkers and not making an educated decision, um I don't know the other side is. We're going to hear, I'm sure we're going to hear from Pastor Hodge, um but it doesn't sound like um should that sounds like we should definitely approve a staff recommendation. Um So, my final statement, or the final um comments, um how was, or what was the criteria used to determine the merit of the lack of sustainability? And has that been vetted or analyzed by legal opinion by our solicitor?

Tracey Harvey

The lack of sustainability, I do not think that he

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, so when you you said that um in your in your view that they could not sustain, it was based on all that you already have mentioned that, you know, they could not sustain, you know, there was a lack of sustainability um plan, in my view, it may not be in their opinion. But my question is what was the criteria, was all this the criteria, was there an additional criteria that you used to assess that they could not sustain or continue to do this um program? And was it and was it vetted through our city solicitor to make sure that, you know, um the justifications had legal merit?

Tracey Harvey

Uh I did bet it through the the city solicitor, and he did um you know, have his questions, but there was no information about the sustainability um issue if that's the case. I mean, I'm only going by what was told to me by Dr. Hodge that it was not sustainable.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. So, go to meetings. Okay. So, thank you very much, and I know that throughout the year, you do a great job, um, first starting with with the clerk's office, your work has always been impeccable, so I don't question your your work through my questions. I just want to make sure that we dot all our I's, cross all our T's, and not have demonstrated being a lazy thinker, because I don't appreciate being called a lazy thinker.

Tracey Harvey

I I don't know where that came from.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It came from Pastor Hodge, like a CEO video um down to the sassiness, which which, you know, I waited to address that, so I'm addressing it now in my city council capacity. None of us up here are lazy thinkers. I yield.

Tracey Harvey

Um I I just want to add one more thing about what the uh Councilman Boggerty was asking about um with the booted and suited. Uh that would be a significant amendment to the action plan. It still will take time and and a lot of resources. So

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. I just wanted to get to that all operational resources. Thank you. Thank you for allowing me that, too. Thank you, Council.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Uh okay. Uh Mr. Mayor?

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. President. Mrs. Harvey, just for um the infor- information points, are the standards for everyone across the board the same as is there a maintenance of standards across the board for all CDG CD whatever it is?

Tracey Harvey

CDBG.

Robin R. Christiansen

Yeah. Say that 10 times real fast.

Robin R. Christiansen

Um Across the board, are the are the requirements the same? The reporting, the accountability across the board?

Tracey Harvey

Yes.

Robin R. Christiansen

And any other applicant that would come along, those requirements would be the same across the board, the time tables, um the information that was requested?

Tracey Harvey

The same work.

Tracey Harvey

Yes. Actually, the timetable is something I didn't mention, but um there was in the 2025 CDBG agreement, which was executed on 20 on September 24th with a performance deadline of June 30th, 2026, the application stated that the work would take no longer than 3 months. And that was one of my issues was that they didn't even get it started before they did expire. But yes, they all have the same requirements, whatever the agreement states.

Robin R. Christiansen

And this is public information?

Tracey Harvey

Yes.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you. Councilman Lewis.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Uh Councilman Lewis?

Fred A. Neil

Wait. Did you wave?

Fred A. Neil

Okay. I can't hear you, sir.

Fred A. Neil

Uh you're muted.

Brian E. Lewis

Can you hear me now?

Fred A. Neil

Now we can hear you. We can, you're unmuted, sir.

Brian E. Lewis

I was I would just like to say that, um, you know, I find it very um disheartening and uh disappointing that disappointing that um they were not in compliance,

Public Commenter

um, you know, for, um, somebody that wanted the, uh, grant money so bad, not to follow the guidelines and the rules is is appalling, and I would just like to put that into the record. Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Now, now we will, uh, first hear from the applicant. Uh, Councilwoman, thank you.

Tricia K. Arndt

Point of order, Mr. Chair.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

What's that? Councilwoman. Councilwoman, do you have another question?

Tricia K. Arndt

Uh, just I was going to suggest we hear from the applicant, but then also point out that we no longer have a quorum. We only have five, and we need six, so the item will have to be deferred.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

You You are correct. Um, we do have technically a quorum, but we do not have a quorum to pass the vote, which requires six. Um, you are absolutely correct. Um, but the, um, let's hear from the applicant, cuz we want to get their response on the record, and then, uh, we will recognize that it's a, uh, it's a quorum call and, uh, adjourn it.

Applicant Representative

I'll I'll step out of my normal propriety to say she is really smart, and she's a terrific asset to the city. As a taxpayer in Dover, I'm glad you have her looking after the money, and I'm glad that you all, as a council, are making sure that folks are doing what they're supposed to do with the money, and that they have proper accounting practices, proper financial financial control policies, etc. So I'm all for it.

Applicant Representative

Pardon me. And, uh, I don't mind. I think you should grill your subrecipients and make darn sure that everything is being done properly.

Applicant Representative

Uh, that's part A. Now part B is I feel blindsided, because, in fact, the last I recall hearing from Ms. O'Brien In fact, we got We can't have been that terrible, because we got reimbursement from some of that, uh, from some some of that, uh, block grant money for We didn't We We We must have got something. We must have got something right.

Applicant Representative

I can tell you, and this may not matter to some folks, but I don't lie. Even if it gets me in trouble, I don't lie. And I can tell you that there we have not received one penny of federal money through the city. We've never received any city money. We haven't received one penny of ARPA money or, uh, uh, block grant money that was not spent appropriately, correctly. It would not have been reimbursed by the city if we had not provided the, uh, receipts in a timely fashion.

Applicant Representative

And, uh, any city, representative of the city, can come down and do a site visit and look to see. In fact, um, so this is the timeline. We wrote the proposal. You liked it. You approved it. The mayor signed it in September. Signed the contract. We started work right away. Actually, uh, uh, Tracy, this was when Tracy was still with you. And, uh, Tracy did a site visit with Ms. O'Brien. They both came in. And, uh, Tracy, at least, said she was really impressed with what what we were doing. I thought Ms. O'Brien was, too.

Applicant Representative

Tracy said, "Oh, look, you got some peeling paint. You might need to have lead paint done, but you can pay for that with CDBG, okay?" So we hired, uh uh this was extremely timely. We We hired Harvard Environmental to do the lead paint testing. It did. It said, "Yes, it's positive. You need remediation." So then we paid for the remediation.

Applicant Representative

And then, later, there was a reinspection to make sure there was no lead paint. We did it. All that was done in a timely fashion. Submit Receipts were submitted. The report was submitted. And then, I think, Ms. Harvey was still with us, uh either Ms. Harvey or Ms. O'Brien said, "Oh uh-oh, you need a tier one environmental review, okay?" So we hired a company, uh a we hired the company that that the city suggested that that did a tier one environmental review. Of course, this took another month or so, and it came back, all right.

Applicant Representative

So we submitted that receipt, or, actually, the report went directly to the city in that case. So we did everything we were supposed And then we uh oh, by the way, during the site visit, uh, when Ms. O'Brien and and Ms. Harvey came down and looked at the space that was to be remodeled, and, uh, Ms. Harvey said Now, she was still the legal representative She was still representing the city. Yes, she was still an employee of the city, the community development manager of the city, correct? She said, "You do not need three bids, because the amount is under $50,000."

Applicant Representative

The city employee told me that. So what we did was we got We actually had three people look at it. One person looked at it and said, "No, this is too small. We're not gonna mess with this. My daughter can do it." So his daughter came and did and gave us a bid. And the But we weren't satisfy We didn't feel confident with the people she brought. So I called the Downtown Dover Partnership and said, "Do you have anybody you recommend?" "Yes." Downtown Dover Partnership recommended a contractor. We signed a contract with the contractor and paid for the uh for the first phase, which was the demolition of the existing bowling alley.

Applicant Representative

It was quite a huge There were several layers of 100-year-old bowling alley, and it was It took quite a bit. She completed that. We submitted the cancelled check to the city for reimbursement, and it took a little while, but, finally, Ms. O'Brien said, "Well, I'm not sure if you're gonna get all of that." And she said, "Because there's been such a loud public outcry against you." That was what she said on the phone. That loud public outcry, I imagine, was those 17 form letters that you all received in in, uh, January. And and I think we've already demonstrated that almost none of that has anything to do with us. It was complaints about crime downtown.

Applicant Representative

But, uh, we certainly have quite a large public outcry, public, uh, cry in our favor. We'll see. Um,

Applicant Representative

the 40,000 from past Yes, we used that. We hired Becker Morgan to design the plans for this new Center for Community Development. They're expensive. We've got the receipts to prove it. There is nothing we have ever done, even a penny,

Applicant Representative

which is not accounted for, which was not done in a timely fashion, which cannot be proven today if you audit us. We have not been non-compliant with a single item, not one item.

Applicant Representative

Yes, when we started to submit receipts for the programmatic part of the block grant and we also submitted receipts for the ARPA money that we the third round of ARPA money we received, yes, there were many times, boy, she works so hard. There must have been really hard for you. All these documents and there were many back-and-forths in which she said, "This isn't good enough. I need more." Okay, so we sent more. "Nope, that's not enough. We need more." So we sent more.

Applicant Representative

Uh, so we complied with everything. Yes, it was a timely process. And, uh, as I said to her in the email, I said, "Well, you are really the hardest-working person in the city, because you must be bombarded with so much stuff." Uh, we supplied everything that was required. We, in the past, have been compliant. And as you know how city money works, even the pass-through money,

Applicant Representative

we can't get a penny until we've proven to you that we've spent it appropriately. So to say that, uh, the money we got four years ago we didn't spend properly or there was something un- non-compliant, it it flies in the face of common sense and reason.

Applicant Representative

You would You would have told us four years ago if you were unsatisfied with that. So, uh, we are asking We spent the money under contract and according to the terms, uh,

Applicant Representative

and we expect reimbursement. And if there's a single item that you can prove has been not according to procedure or not according to the federal the CFR, then, by all means, it is your responsibility to withhold the money. But, uh, vague hints is not sufficient.

Applicant Representative

So, uh, I ask you to fulfill your obligation, reimburse us the rest of the money for which we that we already spent according to the agreements. And, uh, let us And, by the way, it is very sustainable. Howard Stafford, as you know, is ready to start that workforce development program as as soon as we build the area. And we got a promise We're not going to say the name. Don't even make me say who it was. But we got a promise this afternoon for 350,000 from someone else. We've got 100,000 from By the way, she was talking about private funding. Yeah, we got 100,000 of DuPont money, and the DuPonts do not give money to anyone who is not really solid.

Applicant Representative

So, uh uh you know, there's plenty of money to continue the program as soon as we can get this physical space, uh, built according to Becker Morgan designs and according to the contract. Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Uh, questions? Uh, Councilman Boggerty and Councilwoman Arndt.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um, I will have to say, not even being the one, but I I I think you gave some very specifics. So, that it was detailed to me. My other question is, so you have work done, have all your contractors been paid already? Or do you have outstanding contracts that are required to be paid that's dependent on this or or have have you met your other obligations?

Applicant Representative

The The contract that we signed with the contractor who was recommended by Downtown Dover Partnership, uh, is that work is stopped, because she can't She won't do anymore unless she gets paid. And so, uh, the city withholding this money from us has basically stopped that. So when Ms. O'Brien says, "Well, you haven't given us, uh, um, updates," well, there's no update. No work has happened, uh, since we did the demolitions, submitted the receipt for reimbursement, and and reimbursement has not been forthcoming.

Andre M. Boggerty

So So you you by your own and pardon pardon. Uh, they're they're much highly more, you know, more educated in my little masters degree and so. Um, my question is, at the very basic level, you indicated that you you received some substantial funding from uh from other areas. Um, did you just mention DuPont and then 200 or 300 so other money from somewhere else, and then we discuss some other funding.

Andre M. Boggerty

Um, so so why is it that asset which amounts to what which which doesn't amount to a significant portion of the pie Uh, it is a good portion of the pie, but not significant. Why can't you continue that work until with the other funding?

Applicant Representative

We will once that once we get that 350. But, uh uh but the city owes us $30,000.

Andre M. Boggerty

We owe you?

Applicant Representative

You contracted with us, and and we fulfilled the we fulfilled every bit of our of our, uh, requirements. So when the city reimburses us for that money, then we'll go on. I I think what you're asking is this, that, uh, what if the city says no? We're going to renege on our contract. We're not going to reimburse you for that money. Okay. We'll do it. We'll we'll continue with the project, uh, as as we just said. We have other funding.

Applicant Representative

But gosh, I sure would like the city to, uh, while doing its due diligence, I would also like it to honor its contracts, honor its promises, and to work with us. You know, I remember that it was only a few years ago when we used to work together, when the city and People's Church were we collaborated to try to get people off the streets. That's what we want.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. I I don't I don't Well, I hear you, but I want to stay on my track. I don't I'm not going to go back to that.

Applicant Representative

Okay. Those are good things I said.

Andre M. Boggerty

No, I have I have specific questions.

Applicant Representative

I look forward to the day.

Andre M. Boggerty

So So I look forward We're going We're going to answer the questions specifically. We're not going to do that song and dance. You know, I'm one of the most respectful people here, so let's let's stay here. I I I get testimonial work. I I have given to People's Place. I give. I love, you know, and I don't take pictures. That's my problem. So now here's my So let's get back to to this without the the the purse strings. Let's talk about these numbers.

Andre M. Boggerty

My question is what if if all this other funding exists and if you are demonstrating good faith and and our, who you who you describe as an excellent employee, came and said, "Hey, they're still using that funding to move this project along." And then it was brought back to us to say, "Hey, they are using these resources to their other resources to bring the project." So if you have all of this other money and all of these other champions, why why does the project have to stop now with us, with $40,000?

Andre M. Boggerty

I'm not not not a drop in the bucket, but at the at the totality of the project. And you you stated that there are other moneys that could be used, and you're not using them for to to help the community for which we all love, for which we all hope that one day turn it around. I'm a child of an individual who was an addict. My father does AA meetings. That's part of his recovery now. So I'm sensitive to that. So so I that I want y'all to know. My heart goes out to everybody, but I'm a child of that.

Andre M. Boggerty

So I definitely have an issue that if you're if you if we're not using the money for real rehabilitation, that this if we're just dressing up offices, if we're just putting nice fancy couches in, then I have an issue. I want to see individuals' lives turned around as well. So I'm going back to my other question.

Andre M. Boggerty

If you have resources that are there that you say that you can move the project along, why aren't you moving the project along?

Applicant Representative

We will once once this 350 that we were promised comes through. We will move the project along, but, uh, we also have done an awful lot, and we do an awful lot. And as Ms. O'Brien points out, the loss of ESG funding was huge for us. We're going to keep getting addicts into treatment. We're going to keep feeding the elderly, uh, Monday through Friday.

Applicant Representative

We're going to keep distributing toys and adult diapers through our free store. We're not going to stop that. And we're going to keep taking people to the DMV and and helping them apply online for their birth certificates, etc. We're going to keep doing that. You're right. We're not destitute,

Applicant Representative

but we are doing things on a shoestring. We are We do count every penny and and, uh, and we need every penny. And we our plan forward has counted on the city fulfilling its part of the agenda.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. Mr. Chair, I I made my decision. Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right. Thank you, uh, Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. I think this question may have been answered, um, in your response to Councilman Boggerty, but what amount have you been reimbursed to date from the from the 40,000?

Applicant Representative

You know, that's a question that Debbie might know. Um, I think you reimbursed us for the for the lead abatement and for the No, you didn't? Okay. So none of that 40,000. The other that CDBG grant was like for 70-something. Part of it was program. I think the program has been reimbursed. The program aspect.

Debbie

22,700.

Applicant Representative

22,700 has been reimbursed. So we we can't be really non-compliant with the CDBG requirements, because you reimbursed us 22,700 for the program. What has not been reimbursed is the 40,000 which was intended for the renovation of the space.

Tricia K. Arndt

Understood. Um, and then the question regarding the monthly reports that you were supposed to submit, um, did you not submit them, or what what happened with that?

Applicant Representative

Well, we were I was in frequent, uh, email back and forth with Ms. O'Brien throughout the spring. Um, in the I was out of town for for, uh, uh, uh, uh, part of June and all of July and part of August, but, um, there was no there was nothing happening to report about. Uh, we wrote and said, "Here Here's what we did. Will you please reimburse us for this money we spent on the demolition?"

Applicant Representative

Um, it's not like there was an ongoing program and we needed to report on how many people were coming into the program, etc. This was a a capital project,

Donald Hodge

I believe you. I just don't I don't remember receiving it.

David L. Anderson

Please make sure to close that out tomorrow. Thank you. Uh, Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. I'd like to point your attention to the recollection of a city employee allegedly stating that you did not need basically to be in compliance with the three quotes. When you heard or discovered that that was not the case, did you submit anything in writing to the city manager of your grievance and your point of interest, uh, to substantiate, uh, your claim?

Donald Hodge

Yes. Mr. O'Bryan asked me to send an explanation, and I did. And the explanation stated, had three points I think: one, that, uh, Tracey Harvey said we didn't need the three bids; two, we received two bids anyway, but did not have confidence in the in the one; and three, that we decided then to go with the recommendation of Downtown Dover Partnership and to use this contractor. So that was in a letter that went, and it's even Yeah. Yeah, I submitted that letter. And I think I got an email from Mr. O'Bryan saying, "Okay, thank you for doing this. This is all set."

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, thank you. I'd like to refer, um, I'd like to hear from staff, Ms. Savini, if you have any knowledge or any recollection of that, um, for the record, I'd like to have that stated on record.

Patricia Savini

The procurement requirements were reiterated, um, multiple times: October 7th, um, May 27th, June 10th. Um, I requested the additional quote because I need that for proof in my records, uh, on June June 11th, with no response was received. The executed requirement, uh, for the agreement that you, um, executed with your contractor and you only sent me every other page. It said on the one page that I did see that there was a deposit of $52,004.04 required at the execution of that agreement. Uh, you submitted a check for $44,504.04 with no explanation provided for the $7,500 shortage. Um, all I can say is I never heard Tracey Harvey say that three quotes were not required. She always reiterated to all of our subrecipients when I was in training that the city's purchasing policy requires three quotes if you're, uh, paying anybody over $10,000. And then, if you go to the flowchart in our purchasing policy on page three, if you have anything over $50,000, it requires sealed bid or an RFP process. That's all I ever heard her say, and I never heard her say anything else.

Donald Hodge

Since this was under $50,000, then that wasn't required.

Patricia Savini

It was 172 $178,000.

Donald Hodge

She said at the time, because the it's not the total project cost, is that your amount awarded was $40,000, and that's below the threshold.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Council President, acting Council President Anderson, I'd like to interject here. Sounds like the due diligence lack is on your part, so, uh, I know how I'm going to vote. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, sir. Thank you. Uh, you can, um, finish your statement, uh, Dr. Hodge, if you like. If not, then—

Donald Hodge

Okay, I'll just finish it. Clearly, you're your you can't vote tonight, but clearly when this comes up, you're going to you're going to vote to re to renege on that contract. That's okay. I understand. We'll continue to do this work. We want to

David L. Anderson

Please, let Dr. Hodge continue.

Donald Hodge

Well, he was raising his hand.

David L. Anderson

Yeah. Well, it's 8:00, it's 8:00. I just want to you to we're close, and I just want you to go ahead.

Donald Hodge

All right. Just saying, look, we've, um, we've been City Council and People's Church of Dover have been in a battle for nine months. And personally, I'm tired. I don't want to fight anymore. I understand that your reservations about the reimbursing the rest of the money, and we accept that. Moving forward for future projects, I hope that we can be at peace with the City Council. We will continue to do all we can to be as compliant with every ordinance that you can come up with. We want to be in good relationship with the city. And we want to do the right thing, and we want to have good relationships with the staff. And so, um, for the for the battle in the spring in which I gave you all a good talking-to, uh, I hope you will forgive me. I forgive you for somehow relying on, uh, some a spurious testimony on which to make your decisions. But, uh, I I I just hope that when this is over that we can be willing to say that we all have the same goal in mind, which in our case is to get people off the streets, to make downtown Dover more livable for everybody, not just for wealthy people coming in from outside, but for everybody, and to make sure that sit city money is spent in an appropriate, uh, manner. Um, so I hope we can collaborate in the future. That's all.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Thank you. We have, um, and we it was uh it it is by procedure imperative that both sides will be allowed to, uh, give their opinion and to put put the statements on the record. Uh, Dr. Hodge, uh, whatever it is, you have, uh, a couple more weeks to decide how to proceed to get get everything compliant, because, um, Mrs.—I would have done it, but Mrs. Arndt's already done it, and as, uh, uh, noted and called quorum. Is there, uh, are there any committee members online? Seeing seeing none, with the call of quorum having been made, the the proper parliamentary procedure is to, uh, stay and adjourn in this, uh, meeting.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Point of order, Mr. President.

David L. Anderson

Sir? We have a point of order, uh—

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Dr. Sudler put his hand up, and you failed to recognize him.

David L. Anderson

Okay. Uh, this, uh, we can, we got both sides on the record. We allowed questions, I mean, but we don't we can't have a motion, so we can't have discussion now. We The only proper procedure is to adjourn the is to adjourn the committee because we no longer have quorum.

Donald Hodge

There are other people here who I think might like to speak to this issue. Will they be allowed to be heard?

David L. Anderson

See, I mean, we can I mean, I we can go after midnight, but, um, but we have no quorum, uh, of the committee.

David L. Anderson

Well, I'm sorry, Dr. Sudler, what did you say?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Can you, for the record, and so that our constituents who are here will understand why we don't have a quorum, can you, can you explain that?

David L. Anderson

Uh, absolutely. Um, the quorum requires a majority of all members of the committee, uh, which there are 11. Uh, we currently, as, uh, Mrs. Arndt pointed out, have five because we would have, um, quorum, but, uh, Councilman Rocha had to recuse himself. Therefore, we cannot vote. We cannot conduct any further business, um, once the, uh, uh We we were allowed to, um, hear that the other side to put it on the record, but we can't really do anything else. We can't make a motion, we Therefore, we can't have discussion on on a motion because we can't make one. The only motion that is proper when quorum is allowed according to Robert's Rules of Order is to adjourn it.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for, uh, bringing that to our attention and explaining that to our constituents and everyone. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

And it it would have been uh and the and the reason why the he was allowed is because according to Robert's Rules, it would have been a manifest injustice and in- and unfair. And so therefore he would be allowed to put it on the record. Um, that's in that way, both sides are on the record. Um, all right. Um, the meeting, Parks, Recreation, Community Enhancement is adjourned. And thank you all for being here. And if, uh, anyone, um, wish and wishes to, uh, put anything on the record, I would encourage you to do so. I would encourage you to email City Clerk at dover.de.gov, and, um, I want to encourage you to do so. Uh, thank you very much.

David L. Anderson

That brings us to Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee, uh, and I turn it over to, uh, Councilman Andre Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh, thank you, Council President. Uh, I move for the adoption of the agenda for the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee.

Julia M. Pillsbury

So moved.

David L. Anderson

It's been moved and it's uh I second it.

Andre M. Boggerty

It's been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye.

David L. Anderson

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

By dissent, the motion carries. Um, item number one: Update on the safety concerns on East Loockerman Street. Uh, Jason Lyon, our assistant city manager, um, I call him. And I also wait for my, uh, committee members to join us.

Andre M. Boggerty

Greetings, Doctor, how you doing?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Good. How are you?

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, I apologize for my tardiness. Thank you for your patience as well. It's served so diligent. Uh, Assistant City Manager, it's yours.

Jason Lyon

Good evening, Chair, fellow committee members, Council, Mayor, and Team Dover. My name is Jason Lyon, Assistant City Manager with the City of Dover. I come before you tonight with an update on a, um, a safety topic that we had, um, most recently in January on East Loockerman Street. So just to recap of what we had talked about back then, the committee provided direction to our team to put up a temporary closure on East Loockerman Street as you're heading east, like past the of Burger King. The road has had a temporary closure, uh, since July, and we've performed some studies on the street, um, and now we're going to provide a long-term solution, uh, to this to this body. Next slide, please. So, again, the temporary closure started in July. We put this information out. We hand-delivered these notices to each individual within the area of concern. We put this on social media, and the next slide will show the affected area. This is a recap. Go to the next slide, please. Thank you. Uh, all of East Loockerman Street out to, um, Oak Grove Road, sorry, Division Street, uh, Michener and Washington Avenue. So this is the area of concern. Over 100 residents are in that area. Uh, next slide. Uh, okay, so one of the topics that we brought up at the original discussion of closing this road was what kind of impact would it have on emergency access, emergency vehicles. So what we have, uh, in front of you is two different routes from Robbins Hose number two to, uh, different locations within Loockerman Street with the closure. So you'll notice the next slide shows a about a 1 to 2 minute differential to get to the location, um, with the light-colored, uh, Google Map, uh, direction there. Keep that in mind as we continue this discussion. Next slide, please.

Jason Lyon

So, considerations for what we were doing: we, uh, partnered with other team members into the city, uh, most notably the Police Department, who provided speed studies. So you'll see some data up here that shows that there was decreases, as you would imagine, in speeding with that entrance closed off. Um, that seems pretty self-explanatory. Uh, it should be noted that the 85th percentile speed decreased 4 mph. That's significant. Um, and then the fastest speed decreased 6 mph. So with the constituents that came to complain about speed in this area, having that road closed does show a difference. Uh, there is, uh, while the volume drops significantly, just the average speed did drop as well. Uh, and on a 25 mph road, a 4 mph speed differential is significant, so just keep that in mind. Um, again, I mentioned the the the potential 1 to 2 minute response delay would be would be, uh, potentially had with a closure. We did receive some comments from the residents about how would emergency vehicles get to our house. Uh, I did not Our team did not receive any complaints about access to their property with the road closure. Now, whether that's just because they sensed it, and it's there, and they got used to it, um, but again, did not receive any complaints about that. Next slide, please.

Jason Lyon

So, uh, what we are trying to do is an effective, efficient, and economical solution to this problem. There is a one-way aspect to this road that, um, has been asked to be closed permanently, but we also have concerns about emergency access. And we all know that 1 to 2 minutes, um, is a very significant amount of time when there's a fire or an emergency response. So, uh, we've had requests to put bollards up there or having the, um, automatic gate put up there, but all these things cost a lot of money and they are mechanical and they're doomed to fail. So we have come up with an idea very very similar to what you see on the screen before you, of a passover on Route 1, for example, where there's authorized vehicles turn only. Uh, and I know that there's going to be some folks that say, "Well, people are just going to drive through there anyway." That could be, but this is enforceable. Um, so we we can be partnered with the Police Department, Fire Department, Public Works Department. We're all in agreement that this is a solution that I believe is sound, effective, and efficient. Um, and it will allow emergency vehicles to go down that that that access. So if you go to the next slide, it's a visual of what it would look like with the proposal. So, as you see on the left side of your screen, the current configuration has these two red diamonds that are typically used at a T-intersection to deter people from going straight across a T-intersection. Um, in this situation, it was really just showing it's kind of like a you know, hey, just look out where you're going. So the proposal is to install the do not enter, and uh, this sign may be a little hard for you to see, but it's, uh, essentially saying emergency and authorized use only. And again, this is enforceable, so if people do go down this road, uh, incorrectly, uh, they are subject to their fine. Um, again, I we believe that this is a very effective and efficient solution to the problem. I'd be happy to answer any questions from this body.

Andre M. Boggerty

I just want to say that I did receive a call from, um, neighbors in that or emails from neighbors in that, uh, in that area, and they were very appreciative and said they had not There you are in the back. There you are. I was waiting. So, you know, I heard through Reggie emails and they were very appreciative and they were walking their children now or with a little bit more, uh, comfort and, um, enjoying, uh, their neighborhood a little more. So I just wanted to speak on behalf of of the constituents, uh, um, who who who did contact me. That's all. Any other questions from the committee? Uh, the chair recognizes Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Mr. Lyon, do we know that when the we had the temporary barricade, uh, there, were there any emergency responses that happened or occurred during that time?

Jason Lyon

I I am not privy to that information. I can certainly research that if the body likes. Um, my assumption would be that they would just find the other entrances to the development, which is there there are two ways to be accessed into this development without this block, but I can find that information for you.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah, I would I would like to know. I mean, so the sign is a deterrent, but I'm pretty sure, I don't know if it's going to slow down or people are going to honor the sign, you know what I mean? So that shit, um, as a traffic, a traffic-calming mechanism, I think I'm still leaning towards blocking the entrance permanently, but it would be nice to know if if there was an emergency response and, uh, I know the chief's not here, but I know he had mentioned Police? Is the chief No, no, no, uh, Fire Chief. Yeah, Chief Carey mentioned he gave a the number of how many seconds when responding to a fire. And 1 to 2 minutes is probably not good when it comes to that response. But, uh, you know, um, you know, that that still doesn't sway me the way I'm thinking, you know, as far as permanently blocking. I know there's another entrance and the fire station almost sits in between both sides, so I figure if you went down Division Street, you probably could shave off some time and still get there. Um, but, you know, I'm not an expert in that area, but I know that there has been safety issues involving children, and I'd rather try to get the most best of both worlds in that in that scenario. So with that, I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you. Um, I really don't think your proposal's going to work, Mr. Lyon, because, um, actually that—

Brian E. Lewis

it used to be my district uh until it was um redistricted a couple years ago. And uh some of the residents over there um still call me and they have concerns uh with the speed. Um you know you say that uh that they actually had a sign up there at one time because uh I've been over in this area for uh at least 25 years now, and they actually did have a do not enter sign, but people disregarded it, rushing to work, rushing home, wherever the case may be, and they went down there. Um the barriers have made a difference from my understanding, uh from hearing from the residents over there. Um I understand, you know, the situation with the fire department, uh but I agree with Mr. Rocha. I I think that uh, you know, there there still would be enough time um to to get to a fire or whatever the case may be. Um I I really uh don't think that you put that for another do not enter sign, um it's going to be enforced. Uh first of all, there's uh not enough police officers to sit there and enforce it uh unless you're going to put a camera there. You know, you're going to put a license plate reader camera up there and you know click the tag numbers of people uh committing the violations? Um so that's where I stand on this. It's uh it's not going to work. And that's all I have at this time.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes uh Councilman Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Chairman Boggerty. That's exactly where I was headed. Um I think that you should put a camera there and I think that maybe you should put two signs that says do not enter, one on both sides, and then a camera there. The camera helps enforce it. We're already moving towards um cameras in different locations of the city, and that could be used as like a a pilot program to see whether or not uh the camera being there will A, deter, and B, um generate revenue if they want if they want to, you know, not adhere. And then I would put a hefty fine, like, you know, I wouldn't put no $100. I would make it sort of a um make them think about it. If I saw something that says a $500 fine if you, you know, surpass this, and it not a fire apparatus. I would put only emergency apparatuses and a camera there. Every car that goes by there that's $500, that must that $500 spend, we'll take it. That's how I look at it. Um you have to have they want to take the, you know, they want you know, we have to have some type of hefty penalty to deter. $25, $50, $100, that's nothing. $500, $1,000, and make progressive. The first account, your first offense, $500. The second, a thousand. You know, and and that's how I would do it, and put a camera there and and it'll read the tag and then put a sign there, only emergency apparatuses can go beyond this point. Done. Get that money.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Put Commissioner Jason Lyon.

Jason Lyon

Thank you, Rick. Um I I understand all the points. I want to reiterate a couple things that I forgot to mention. [cough] Um we we looked at other options for traffic calming within the the network. The issue that we have with this road is that it's very narrow. So putting a chicane or any sort of deterrent is not feasible. I just want to make sure that's on the record. We did look at other options. Um I want to go back to the question Mr. Rocha had with regard to the timing. Um the the slideshow does have an example of going down Division Street versus going down Loockerman and there is a 1 to 2 minute difference in depending with Loockerman Street. So I want to make sure that's clear. Um and that's just based off of historical data, right? Um the camera aspect, uh of course that's going to cost money and management, right? So um I like to think that some people like to follow rules. And I hope that my kids will do that, right? So that is the the genesis of this, trying to be effective and and economical. So totally understand everyone's point. I get it. Uh we'd have to look at the feasibility of of raising those fines. I'm not in a position to tell you right now if that's legal or not. Um so we can certainly do some research with state.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right. And thank you. Um yeah, okay, being that City Council is the legislative body that governs this city, what would be the restriction for us to raise a a hefty fine on our road? As you may, I mean I'm not challenging you, I'm just saying like to your knowledge, what would restrict us from putting a 50 $500 fine um if they go, so I get how how, you know, how does Delaware regulate? So yeah, I refer to the attorney, safety, maybe Chief you have any option, you have a domain? Absolutely.

Andre M. Boggerty

The chair recognizes uh Chief Johnson to answer any questions regarding the um the fee structure, um or fine structure. This won't be a fee, let me use the correct terminology. The fine structure for a traffic incident.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh, just for I see I got you. I appreciate it.

Thomas Johnson

For the record, Tom Johnson, Chief of Police. Um, if I was tracking the question appropriately, you're asking whether or not um local authority can establish an ordinance that creates a traffic violation that you could assign a value to and make it enforceable, if as long as I was tracking that right. Correct. Okay. Um, I believe you can do that. I believe you have statutory authority to do that.

Thomas Johnson

What what I was just trying to get the chair's attention about is the use of digital technology to enforce one-way violations. I'm not sure that that's authorized in the code for us to function that way. There's there's specific authorization for red lights, and we're stepping onto the stage of speed enforcement through use of digital technology. I don't know that any of my officers would be allowed to file any kind of violation based on reviewing um video, um whether we own it or whether it's supplied video. I'm not sure, I'm not sure we're able to do that. I'm not saying we can't, but I'm not feeling like we can, and I I'd like to double check that aspect if you were going to continue down the road of discussing technology for enforcement.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Um can you please look into that?

Thomas Johnson

Most certainly. I just I don't have the answer for you tonight.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

And that's all right. I know you don't have it tonight and that's okay. Um but if you can provide that to us, I think it'd be helpful in how we assess um how we want to continue to govern um, you know, safety, traffic safety and and address these matters here, because to my knowledge and the years I've been on council and committees, this is a city council city-manager form of government and we drive the legislative component and and cities have their own home rule um authorization. And if they feel as though that is the best um course of action, all we have to do is an ordinance and and make sure it's within the confinement of of of state, federal statutes. Uh but we have home rule, we you know, just like when we do um fees and and um you know, just like we're talking about infrastructure fee, I believe we have home rule and I haven't seen anything different, so if you can definitely just take a look at that and um maybe do an email or maybe on the chair, if you can provide it to the committee as a whole through the through the chair uh Chairman Boggerty, uh and disseminate it to you know, upon his approval, disseminate it to the rest of us. I think I I know I would like to know moving forward. Thank you. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh thank you. Um yes, Chief.

Thomas Johnson

I just wanted to add um I can report back um very quickly on that. And the other thing I would remind council of, not too long ago we adopted uh a stronger ordinance for off-highway vehicles uh based on um the state law in its um draft at that time. It has since been updated, but that has not impacted um the ordinance that you adopted a couple of years ago. So you clearly have the ability to um take pieces of the vehicle code if you'd like to codify it locally. You you absolutely can do that.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, thank you. Um the chair recognizes uh the Mayor.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you uh, Mr. Chairman. It would not be my intent to uh represent the Fire Chief or his opinions, but um uh as a firefighter from Robbins Hose Company for over 50 years, one of our uh rapid emergency response routes from fire station number one, downtown headquarters company, has always been uh to respond to Division Street to head east. Uh as a operator of a piece of fire apparatus, I think that uh, and this is my own personal opinion, uh the easier response route would be Division Street uh and swinging off of the side streets into uh the East Dover uh area. I think that uh successfully we've prevented uh traffic from going through there and I think that uh we probably should continue in that direction. Uh let me also reiterate, time is of the essence in in a fire call as Chief Johnson as a past chief of his own department, as an officer in Dover Fire Department myself uh many years ago. Uh, however, I think the the more rapid response uh would be for fire apparatus to respond to that area, and I'm not sure what the call volume is over there, I wish we would have been able to pull that up, uh would be to respond uh from the downtown firehouse uh head east on Division and swing in into that uh into that development uh. Just basically also because of the size of the apparatus that has to go through there. Uh and uh I'm not so sure responding down Loockerman Street, uh we've done that for years to get to um to southeast of town and uh because of the traffic situation uh we no longer respond down Loockerman Street unless it's absolutely necessary. So uh I think the uh Division Street response route is uh is more proper in my opinion, but let me let me reiterate that again that I'm not speaking for the fire chief nor am I speaking for the fire department, I'm speaking from personal experience. I yield, Mr. Chairman.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman Lewis online.

Brian E. Lewis

Yes, I have a question for the Chief uh, and and let's be factually speaking, do you have enough resources to put a police officer over there to conduct traffic enforcement if in fact uh this proposal was approved?

Thomas Johnson

Um, if you're I guess the short answer is no. Would it be part of the regular rotation, if council asked for it to be in the regular rotation of enforcement, it certainly would, but that level of enforcement right now would not be, I don't believe, frequent enough to show any major shift in in driver behavior if we were having a problem over there. It wouldn't be enough.

Brian E. Lewis

I mean let's face the facts. You and I have discussed this uh as far as uh speed. You know, we still have speed issues, but uh when it was a major issue in my district uh a couple years ago, and I and I got those uh radar enforcement signs, um you had indicated that you don't have enough resources to put a cop on every corner to uh hit those speed traps. So, I mean I'm sure that the way it stands now, you're not going to have the resources to put a cop there to try and ban people from entering a do not enter street. Am I correct?

Thomas Johnson

I think that's a correct characterization. I just I just want to make sure it's clear we have some capacity, and it wouldn't be that we would never be there, but it probably would never be enough in the eyes of the individuals looking for a definitive change.

Brian E. Lewis

Understood. Uh my next question uh to Mr. Lyon, how much would it cost the city to close off that road and would we be able to get any grant money if it were approved?

Jason Lyon

Are you asking if you want to have a permanent wall put up, bollards?

Brian E. Lewis

Correct, or a a uh cement barrier uh or a cement curb where you could not enter.

Jason Lyon

Uh, I don't have that number at the

Brian E. Lewis

close off that that close off that section of the street.

Jason Lyon

Okay. Uh let let me get back to you on that. I'm going to have to look at different options. Um I would say off the cuff, it's probably less than maybe $1,000 to $2,000 depending on what we do, but I'll get back to you on that, Mr. Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. That's all I have. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, thank you. All right, so um thank you uh, Chief, thank you all. The chair recognizes Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. Um I agree. I think if you see a do not enter sign, uh a big red sign, uh most people would not continue down that path. I like the idea of exploring a significant fine and noting it on the sign. $500, I think that would be a certain certainly a deterrent. I caution against a permanent closure, uh a structure that cannot be removed in that, should there be a situation on the highway where the intersection is blocked there at 13 and and Division, um being able to route traffic in an emergency situation and having this as an alternative, I don't think it's ever happened, but to have that as an alternative only when necessary, I would not recommend a permanent fixture to block that location. But I would support the sign and exploring the fine. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes uh Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you, uh Mr. Chairman. So I I agree with what um Councilwoman Arndt said about permanent structure. I I would be leaning more towards having some type of a gate situation that in an emergency even for a fire response or somebody could just show up there and open the gate if if need be

Robin R. Christiansen

We'll run We'll run through it.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Run through it, whatever, but just, you know, um [laughter] something that uh we would be able to get access to, but not not nothing I wasn't thinking of anything permanent in that in that case. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. All right. Uh the chair recognizes Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Chairman Boggerty. Um with regards to the gate, I was thinking maybe we have something like uh what they have with the rail railroad system and maybe where it's maybe like the uh the police or the police or the fire department has like a little signal or something where they can just almost like a a garage opener and it you know, and it opens and then it shuts. But that's a permanent barrier where no no car's really going to ride through that and then they sort of are they know not to do that, they have like you know, what they do at railroad system, once they see that thing down, they're like, okay, I'm not going that way even though they try to drive through it, might damage the vehicle. But I think something of that magnitude will be a great um happy medium because you still have the barrier, right? You still can it still can extend up so someone can go through and then having access, you know, the uh the emergency um you know, emergency apparatuses can have those have that access, so that's I think that's a great thought of a a mobile, but still's uh gate system. All right, thank you, Chairman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, thank you. My uh only concern, and and and again, I'm I'm happy that we're seeing results is that we have other neighborhoods who have the same issue. Um, and then pretty soon we'll have a a city with with streets that are not accessible because they too have concerns um over in they're not here today, believe it or not, uh uh um Lincoln Park, that whole that area. So, you know, you know, we often, you know, hear about the challenges that they have over there, so, you know, once we do it in one place, and then we set what we call a precedent, and uh precedent, and then we have to do permanent structures and then our city uh look a little interesting. Um, and the safety impact will be um um um the challenges to our safety uh with fire and police, et cetera, will will will be will will increase of them assessing roads. So that's my only concern about doing that. I do believe we should do something, but maybe not as permanent structure and gates, et cetera. Um, so that's that. I think uh Councilman Lewis has uh raised his hand again. The chair recognizes Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh yes. Actually um, I was listening to what Mr. Sudler was saying and um he does bring up a good point about a automatic gate. Uh if you drive down Route 1 in Delaware, you'll notice on the side of the road you have like service roads and you have uh like a gate that's operated um I believe by DelDOT, if I'm not mistaken, and they can actually uh raise the gate electronically uh from headquarters or whatever the case may be, uh and whoever, like the state police, if they have to get off that access road, they either make a phone call or they have a remote control. So that may be something that Mr. Lyon can look into uh because DelDOT does that, I've seen it on Route 1. And um as far as Mrs. Arndt's comment, um it would be nice if we did live in a perfect world where everybody obeyed the ordinances and the laws, but take down those barriers tomorrow afternoon

Tricia K. Arndt

and come sit with me over there in the Burger King parking lot, and you will see how many people disregard the sign and go down that road. Mr. Chairman, that's all I have.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman Dr. Sudler, and immediately after that, the mayor.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I could yield to the mayor, Mayor? And then you can go ahead.

Robin R. Christiansen

So in regards to a k- uh thank you, Dr. Sudler. In regards to a a gate that would be operated by remote control, each pieces of fire equipment and the ambulances are equipped with Opticons, and that is how they get access onto the various different parts of Route 1. So that might be something that would be doable with the Opticon system that the fire trucks already have in place and that we have on many of our streetlights to allow us to turn the lights to, you know, make our emergency response. So that might be an option. Yield, Mr. Chair.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. And I also wanted to reiterate to our constituents that the Capital Area Municipality Sustainability Act, which we will be further addressing and reviewing at the end of October, is dealing with infrastructure, right? Gaining money for infrastructure to basically fund some of these new innovative ways, right, to keep our community safe through road systems. So that would be something that would be able to assist us in conjunction with the state funding from Trey Paradee, our 17th District Senator, we can reach out to him, and in addition to reaching out to our 31st District House of Representative Sean Lynn for their Community Transportation Fund. They have millions. I know they have a lot of hundred thousands, close to a million, if not millions. But I know they have hundreds of thousands because I've talked with them in regards to some other matters on College Road. So the money is there. I think that, you know, I think we also need to look at seeing how we can partner with Kent County. I hate to say this, but, you know, Kent County is getting our taxes and I don't - well, I'm calling them out, I don't see how much, I'm not saying they're not doing anything, but I don't see in my daily operations as councilman and just as a taxpayer, I don't see how much Kent County is contributing to a lot of our road system infrastructure, storm water. I know they do some, but the daily things that affect our constituents, because they're getting our tax dollars too. That double taxation that our constituents are paying, city tax and county tax.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So I think we need to lean a little bit more in on the county and ask them to give us some funding, you know. When I was council president, unfortunately, I was trying to connect, but the ball got dropped. It wasn't on my end, it was on their end, and I think it's because there's been a history of a disconnect between the county and the city. I think as you being a newly assistant city manager and also city manager, our new team in Team Dover, I think that'd be a great opportunity to sort of try to strengthen that, which would benefit our constituents as a whole. So let's lean in on some of our state funds and also let's tap into our county so we can stay out of our constituents' pockets and give them some relief. So I yield. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Council Interim President Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. There's been a lot of discussion and some of it will take some research, such as even if a gate's not going to be cheap and it wouldn't be instant. What I would support right now while this is being evaluated would be to extend the status quo and then evaluate continued to evaluate options, because right now, what's happening is working. So what's the hurry? We can take our time and evaluate options and then make them happen, the best option, because we don't have a ticking time clock. The current solution is working. I yield. I don't know if the chair has recognized the time for a motion yet, because he may want comment or whatever. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. There's a lot of people who want to have public comment, so I just want to emphasize that the three-minute clock is going to be in, and I want to stick closely to that because there are quite a few. And we want to make sure that we are... we are here. So I'm going to go with what's listed and then I'll recognize those who volunteer or who are asking without signing up. So the first family, I want to call this the Paul family? I mean the Bell family. And then immediately after the Bell family, Michelle Paul has signed up. Or do you want to...

City Clerk

I have a list if you want me to go down the list.

Andre M. Boggerty

Well, Michelle Paul is also on mine, and then we'll recognize others. Belinda Payne, I'll see you. Okay.

Andre M. Boggerty

So now, are you all speaking individually or as one?

Sarah Bell

Individually.

Mary Bell

It was part of their homeschool. They prepared speeches today for City Council as part of their homeschool. They asked me for advice, I said 'I can't help you, it's all you.'

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. All right, so let's start with our future leaders. Go ahead.

Mary Bell

You can pull it down.

Andre M. Boggerty

Wait, you got to say your name. You don't have to give your address.

Sarah Bell

I'm Sarah.

Sarah Bell

What I like the street closed is because you can ride bikes.

Andre M. Boggerty

Hold on. Dad, you want to come take a picture of this moment? Thank you.

Mary Bell

And Sarah, how did you learn to ride bikes?

Sarah Bell

With dad.

Clara Bell

Um, hi. My name is Clara. I'm here because you guys would like to reopen my street, and I should not have to close my street to be safe. People shouldn't speed down my road, and I know you guys can't control that. We used to have a sign a while ago, maybe like three or four years ago, and some kid hit it in the middle of the night. And then we got a new one. And then they closed the road, and they took the sign away. Now, no people have been speeding down the road, well, not no people, less people. Much less people have been coming down the road speeding. So now I can ride my bike down the street without worrying of getting hit.

Irma Bell

My name's Irma. When the street is closed, it feels like everything is perfect. I can walk my dogs with my family and happily talk about how nice it is with the road closed. If you reopen it, I won't be able to do that that much more often. And it'll I probably won't be able to ride my bike that much, because my parents know it's not safe for me to be there with speeders coming up and down the street. So please, don't reopen the street.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. Okay, so we have to give you a grade, and I think all the council would make an ordinance that you all get an A. Or make that motion that you get an A. All in favor, say aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

Aye. So parents, you have to give an A for this assignment.

Mary Bell

I'll put that down there. It's my responsibility.

Mary Bell

So real quick, I just want to thank you guys. B, I'm Mary Bell. I live at 801 East Parkwood Street. I've been there 11, 7 years, now. Thank you for finally believing in the safety of our street and how much it matters to us. It was never about the volume of cars, it was about the danger of the people that were not respecting the laws and rules of the road. Otherwise, we'd be able to ride bikes, we'd be able to walk our dogs, you know, it wouldn't be an issue. I hate to say this, I don't normally agree with you, Councilman Arndt, but I'm agreeing with you tonight. I don't think there should be a permanent barrier. But what I do think is the barrier that's in place is fine, and Mayor Christiansen's fire trucks can run it right over, because I know my Suburban can, not that I tried. But I know it could. So I feel like a fire truck would be fine, just a little bump, if that's needed. I like the gate idea. I like the sign. Can you put it in the middle and so the cops can just go around it? Just put it right in the pavement, would be fine. Somehow the barrier was removed recently and it - I was in my - not fully dressed, let's just say, outside with coffee and dogs. People were flying down the road and a child was being dropped off at my house, and she's like 'When did they open your road?' And I'm like 'I have no idea.' What is, you know, we had to go investigate and deal with this. It was a nightmare until they put it back, because it was just, it didn't stop. I don't think the sign will work. I love the fine. Please, make some money for the city, I am down for that. But you have to enforce it. So we need a camera, because the police are busy doing other things. They shouldn't have to police someone, you know, doing that. I agree with that. So I think all the solutions are great. Please leave the sandbags and the barrier for now so I can enjoy fall and my whole neighborhood can enjoy it. I've met 10 neighbors I didn't even know, because we're outside now. We're not in our backyards hiding from each other. So it's a really great thing that you guys are doing and I really appreciate it.

Robert Bell

All right, I guess I'll wrap up. I'm Robert Bell, obviously, at 801. We are glad the girls had the bravery after that. I do want to thank you all for the barrier that we've had for the past couple months. It's been great. I have obviously noticed a significant reduction in the number of unexpected vehicles and according speeders. We still get them every now and then. Go figure, it's going to happen, right? I am a little bit concerned about the sign thing. It's better than nothing, but it comes down to enforcement, right? I mean, if there's not consequences for people breaking the law, people will do it. So, you know, however you deal with that. I will say the suggestion of the ALPRs, not a fan. The license plate recognition devices, as a technologist, I have some issue with the security and excuse me, privacy implications of that. I know we've got them in town, not happy to see that, but it's a concern. I definitely like some of the other technological solutions, the Optic- something or other gate...

Robin R. Christiansen

Opticon.

Robert Bell

Opticon gate, I think that's a fantastic idea. You know what, we could just turn it into dirt the other rest of the way. I bet you you guys have some pretty good shocks in the trucks, they could probably roll over the dirt, and most cars probably won't have...

Robin R. Christiansen

We can get to you.

Robert Bell

Uh, yeah, exactly. And you know, the little cars that want to go and speed, hey, you know what? Better business for all our local, you know, body shops and tire shops and what have you. So anyway, once again, I did want to thank you all for your time this evening and listening to us, and with that, that's all I have to say.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. I think we have some other... Michelle Paul is here. Okay, so let the record show Michelle Paul is here. Do you have any comment? Do you raise your hand? No? Okay.

City Clerk

I have a list if you want me to go down the list.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay.

City Clerk

Nope, we got more.

City Clerk

The first person I have for this topic is Terri Sipple.

City Clerk

We can get you the microphone.

Terri Sipple

If you're going to make a fine, make it something that you're going to have to have a camera, but make it something that's going to give people pause. If you put signs up there, you know, the do not enter sign, and you stick a a sign under it, you know, they see the camera and that sign underneath it says 'Fine $1,000 and/or 30 days in jail', they're not going to do it. And then you just start taking the pictures and start hauling them in. And first few, throw throw somebody in jail for 30 days. It's an and/or. You make an example out of a few, it's not going to happen too often.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Next person.

City Clerk

Next we have David Suter.

David Suter

Hello, Council. I want to appreciate all what you've done so far. This barrier has made a 100% change in our street. As you've seen them little kids right there, I know you don't agree with me because the cost and everything you're talking about, but who's more important, your money or that little girl? Or them girls, excuse me, them girls. Do you have kids? Okay, who's more important to you than anything in this world? These cars that come up and down our street, even with the digital signs, they don't care about your kids. It's not their street. It's a shortcut for them. I hate to say it, we also have people coming through there running drugs, from Foster Street to Ferguson Street right next to Robin Hood Manor. I've been watching this for three, or four years now, and I've been on email with the mayor for three years. And it's taking this long to get someone's attention. And that's a shame. Because we already had one child die, I think it was like a year and a half, maybe two years. It shouldn't come to that. We shouldn't have to wait for one of our elderly people or one of our children to die on the street to be noticed. And if you look at your archives, if you've been in Dover all your life, go back to 1992. This road has been neglected since 1992. The sign, you can forget that. You see people out here running a red light, they see a light turn yellow and they're flying, and then they don't care if it turned red, they don't care if the next person is going to pull out on them. That sign's a joke. And I'm sorry, you know our world has become very disrespectful and very reckless. The gate may cost you some money, but we're not going to lose these kids, which they are worth a lot more than that that that gate is. And I believe we we need a gate. We don't need a permanent thing there. We want our emergency people to come help us and protect us and put our fires out or whatever happens. The gate is a beautiful idea. It's costly, I agree. But my tax dollars every day, I don't want to give it to you, but I give it to you. Give it back. Protect us. We're Americans. We lived in this country all our lives. We're born saying this is a free country. Well, this is my free speech right now. Our children come first. Our parents come first. Our families. We are all from the same Creator. We're brothers and sisters. I don't care what color is. We are brothers and sisters. Protect us! That's why you're up there. That's why our government's there, to protect the United States, to protect Americans, to protect all of us. Nobody's special. We're all special. You know what I mean by that, right? You're not just special, you're not just special, we're all special. We're unique. We all look different. But we all have the right. We was raised with respect from our parents. We was raised how the world isn't all that great, but we respect. For all of mine, and for all of mine. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much.

City Clerk

Next we have Dawn Thorne.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Next.

City Clerk

Mary Nance?

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Next.

City Clerk

Jeremy Schneider.

Jeremy Schneider

Uh, thank you for hearing us again, Jeremy Schneider, 787. Uh, for sake of time, I'm not going to belabor any points that haven't already been said. I agree with my neighbor, I agree that I've seen kids that I didn't know lived in my neighborhood for the last four years. I saw people the other morning walking dogs in the middle of the street because they finally could use the street for the first time. I was there the day that child was seriously injured in that car accident right in front of my house doing 50 in a 25 residential zone. Uh, and you know, at that meeting when we when we first talked about it, the chief said that could have happened on any street. And sure, it could have happened on any street, but it doesn't change the fact that it happened on a residential street, the street in front of our house. And so, ultimately, yeah, I'm not going to belabor any points. I will thank you for doing what you've done so far.

Public Commenter

I was the one two weeks ago that called the city to say someone in the middle of the night moved the barrier and were already flying up and down the street. Um, I would love it if signs were respected, but we've proven the point. Uh, there's a sign that says it's a one-way on the other side of the street. Multiple times, almost been hit riding my bike or running by people coming out towards Rodney or towards 13th. I love it if signs were respected, but they aren't. Um, so I'd just like you guys to consider that. We appreciate what you've done. It's totally dramatically changed the feel of the neighborhood, the happiness of the neighborhood, the usability of the neighborhood as folks who do live there. So, just consider us. I appreciate if you would do that when you think about it and and in the interim, if you could keep it the way that it is. It is a game changer. It is incredibly safer and it has totally shifted the atmosphere of our little neighborhood. So, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you.

City Clerk

Next is M Santiago?

Andre M. Boggerty

No. Going once, twice, three times, next.

City Clerk

Sondra Caldwell?

City Clerk

Left. Okay. Um, Anthony Wilson.

Anthony Wilson

Good evening, everyone. My name is Anthony Wilson. I'm a Dover resident, to Dover. And when I first moved here, about six months ago, uh the only concern was people flying up and down the street. And I just found out, actually, from that that that little flashing sign, speed limit, it turns red if you go way too fast. So if you go like 50 mph, numbers turn red. I never knew that. I've never seen anyone go 25 mph over the speed limit like straight up in a residential area, so. Uh that blockade that's currently there, it is working. Uh like everyone else said, there's many neighbors that uh I didn't even know existed. I thought my block was relatively empty until uh they put that blockade up there. Uh I have five girls, well, I have four girls and one boy, but I have five children, and they're all small and their biggest concern was that there were no other children that lived in our neighborhood until to that blockade. So, it is working. It's deterring people from doing the wrong thing. Uh I believe if we move it and get put a sign there, um those signs usually only deter the law-abiding citizens, but that's not what we're worried about. It's the ones who are going 60, 70, 80 mph down the road and like my vehicles have been almost hit multiple times. I'm a runner. I just started running in the neighborhood uh because I felt like it was unsafe to do so before, and so. And uh I know someone mentioned something about uh like emergency vehicles coming. I know about 3 days, 3 nights ago, I guess someone called the police and they got there relatively fast. One police car came from up from towards Division and the other one came around uh up near where the blockade is and they got there about within 30 seconds of each other. So, they're not really a big hindrance on emergency vehicles and yeah, if you put a gate there, they can run through those gates. I work with uh I'm a military member, so we work with police, fire for emergency management as well, and they do it all the time, so. But that's all I have and hopefully uh a temporary blockade, you can just keep it there as long as you need to. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you.

City Clerk

That's it for my list.

Andre M. Boggerty

Um, we have uh Okay. Okay. So, we're going to go we're going to go Bonnie, who I recognize. Um, we're just going to go from from this side to the back and then you and then we're I'm just going to go this this way and then back. I got you, Mr. Foust. I didn't see it, but it's fine. We're going to call you. They're going to do whatever next Monday. Go ahead, Bonnie.

Bonnie

Hello everyone. My name is Bonnie, I live in Dover. Sudler, you know I respect you. You know I call you when I need your help. You're doing a good job, but the one thing is if you're going to do this for that street, I'm glad the kids are safe. I got kids of my own, I got grandkids. My question is, if you're going to do that for that part of town, why can't you do it for the other part of town? We have houses down on our street now that neighborhood good, I say neighborhood good boys, but it's not them. I know them for many years. They put four brand-new houses up on the corner. There's kids living there. There's kids living in 208. The parents are coming and complaining to me because not only the buses are flying down there, there's a black car that comes from one of the stop signs to the other one. He loves to speed just to hear his car make that popping sound. Now, listen, I'm not disrespecting anyone, I agree with everything that's going on, but if you're going to barricade one road, then you need to barricade them all or don't barricade none. If you're going to treat one area with respect, then you should treat all areas with respect, cuz everybody out here has kids, everybody out here has grandkids. Every- Listen, my child's handicapped. I literally had to go out there and stop a car that ran the handicapped bus. Didn't care. They just flew right on down the road cuz they're on the phone. So, the thing of it is everything needs to be done. If If you're going to charge $500 to $1,000 for them flooding that road, then you need to charge it on Kirkwood Street, cuz this has been going on since I lived here. And that's been back in 2005. You can't get the cops to come on that street. I've not once had them come on that street unless we literally call them 100 times. No disrespect, Chief. But anyway, the problem is everybody's having issues with people speeding through signs, running red lights, doing this, doing that. No disrespect to you, sir, but the bottom line is you have to do it to all. Because we go through the same thing as them. I I'm glad your kids are safe. I love kids. I got three boys, one grandson. I deal with boys. I understand playing with kid- My kids never played on the road where I lived at cuz I never trust that area. And I still don't trust it for anybody else's kids. And there's kids running up and down the roads every day, riding bikes. I even told the lady that just moved in, "I wouldn't let my kid ride down this road by myself." Them kids need they need their parents, but they also need to know what that area is like and how I've been trying to get that area straightened up. Now, watching cameras, are the cops going to watch all of them or they're just going to watch certain specific cameras? Because I got one out in front of my house that the cops never look at. So, I mean, you're going to have to treat everybody the same. So, have a good one. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um, Vernetta. I'm just going down the row. And then Mr. Foust. You know, Mr. Foust, I was kidding about your Eagles, that's what I was.

Unknown Speaker

I'm going to cry after you talk to your Joe. Yeah, yeah, we need help. He's a big Cowboys fan. I'm a Detroit Lions fan. Okay. 313 is tattooed on...

Vernetta

Hi, my name is Vernetta, and I've been here since college, late '70s, early '80s. Um, and sort of piggyback off what everyone has said, there's pros and cons to everything, and it also we can talk about we want this, we want that, but at the end of the day, it's about cost and what's more um effective, what's more efficient. Um, I do completely agree um with the last um person that if you're going to this is this going to start a precedent? If you're going to start do it on one street, you have to make sure that that one street is not the only street, that it should encompass all streets, because I don't think anyone will um disagree with the fact that we all want our children to be safe, whether it's, um you know, at a park, on the street, just safe, period. But understand that it's going to take uh money to do so, whether it's putting up um a sign. And I live over on that area, so I do know that people do not look at signs, so it's not about that, as someone stated, for the law-abiding citizen, it's about the ones that do not. However, and it is um a concern if any um, you know, fire trucks or police, whatever, have to go through. So, all that has to be taken into consideration, but, again, if you're going to do it on one street, just be fair. Make sure that if another area decide they want to do it, I mean, what would be your objection to it if you've already said yes to this street?

Mr. Foust

Thank you. You know, I believe the council is mistaken. It's all about gates, good, but expensive. How about the non-expensive things? Why about getting large barrels and putting across the street to block it off and have sandbags there? Most people will be lazy and not want to remove the sandbags. Well, how it set up so that the fire company can get through, that's one question, one suggestion, through all the streets, probably. Or two, you got two sides of the street. Put a cement pole here, put an orange cement pole the other thing, put an orange, bright orange chain, top, middle thing, and have the police or fire call have a padlock to it that is weather-resistant. This way if they want to run it, they're going to damage their car. So, how much would two poles cost and some thick chain cost and a cheap can of fluorescent orange paint? Let's go low tech. I mean, everyone's saying we don't have any money, but I guarantee you you can get DelDOT to put bunch of barrels out there with sandbags tomorrow. Something to think about.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. And then the gentleman behind the gentleman who stood by, I got you. I see you, Mr. Keller. Acorn Lane. I got you. I'm going by the rows. I see you. I see you, Mr. Keller, right there.

Karl Keller

Karl Keller, 10 Acorn Lane. I'm here just to say I have the same problem on Acorn Lane. People go and White Oak Road, as soon as they make that turn, they just stomp on the gas and go. So, I'm looking for like they're getting a barrier, that's why I'm here. I want a barrier, too. That's, you know, what I think. Why with one neighbor-

Andre M. Boggerty

Yeah, just for clarity, I apologize, for clarity for the record, you said Acorn Lane?

Karl Keller

Yes, Acorn Lane. Right off of White Oak. Route 9, pretty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yep, just wanted to make sure it was clear.

Karl Keller

Yeah, you can make my road one-way and throw some of the tractor-trailers and all on another road. Or or I'm I'm for having a dead end, to put the barriers up to stop it. I have big tractor-trailers coming through every day going to that uh Garrison uh Development Center. Uh you know, it wasn't like that when I bought my house or I wouldn't have bought it. You can't be out there walking your dog during the day when you've got these tractor-trailers coming down. And like I think it'd be very unfair if you guys keep the barrier up. I thought the barrier was up because they were doing some road construction or something. I didn't know it was up because the people don't want cars going through it. If uh if they beat were driving too fast, that's why the barrier is up, to slow people down? I mean, if they're not going to slow it down, they go too fast, what's a barrier going to do? Just don't make any sense to me.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Thank you, sir. Same line, state your name and-

Ryan Kocher

Hello, my name is uh Ryan Kocher, 416 Palisades Way. Uh, first thing I want to say, the last guy that talked is a dumbass.

Andre M. Boggerty

Stand by, stand by, stand by. Stand by. No, stand by. No, no, no, you stand by. When I'm the chair, you will not disrespect anybody. You understand? So, I don't care about public free speech. Respect is respect. This is not We're not going to turn this into a show because you want to. So, you can So, so, so, if you if you continue, y'all can make a Facebook post about me, y'all should know I don't care. I will stop you from speaking cuz we going to demand respect when I chair something. You understand? Respect.

Ryan Kocher

Hello, my name is Ryan Kocher, 416 Palisades Way. I do want to say, I think this barrier is a wonderful idea. I don't live over here, but I used to uh, you know, ride a bike over here with my friend who lived on Bicentennial Road and we would cut through there, and there were a lot of cars that would speed. And I feel like the biggest problem is that there's the um there's the uh radar, right? But a radar isn't really going to stop anything, you know? And I feel like that's why you guys put the barrier up. But I feel like another good idea would be like a neighborhood watch sort of thing, you know, with a camera and everything. I know you guys were saying stuff with a camera, but I feel like like a neighborhood watch sort of concept would be a good idea, too, where you can have like not like a police officer, but like maybe like, you know how like college dorms have like RAs and stuff like that, maybe have someone a concept like that where somebody's, you know, watching the road, making sure, you know, nobody's passing by, so that that way it's not completely blocked off, but this person that is, you know, watching the road would have, you know, direct contact to the precinct officer. Maybe have like one or two cameras, maybe have like a camera in the middle of the road, one on another side, and then one on another side so then, you know, three angles of it. And then um I just I think there's a lot of, you know, things you guys could do other than just block the road, which I'm not against blocking the road fully, but I feel like there's also other directions that you guys could take, you know, especially with a concept like a neighborhood watch. And um I just I you know, I um I like this idea. I like what you guys are doing with this. I disagree with a lot of things you guys do, but I heavily agree with this. I'm glad that, you know, kids are able to be safe here and are able to actually like walk and live, you know, and that's always appreciated, you know? And uh that was a good move by you guys. And I apologize to uh where is he at?

Andre M. Boggerty

He's gone. He's in the hall.

Unknown Speaker

You might want to go out there. Glad he quickly left.

Ryan Kocher

Sometimes I let my emotions get the best of me sometimes, you know, especially with stuff I agree with. But um, yeah, that's all. Thank you very much.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, I appreciate it. Miss McCabe, and then I think Mr. Anderson, I think, it's what he's saying.

Donna McCabe

Hi, uh Donna McCabe, District 2.

Andre M. Boggerty

I'm sorry, what?

Donna McCabe

I'm Donna McCabe, District 2. Oh, that's okay. That's okay, it's been tough for everybody. Um, I just want to kind of give the other side. I'm sorry to this family and to everybody else who's been affected because I was a speeder that went through there. Um, I wasn't going 50 mph, but that, while that barrier was an inconvenience to me and it took some time to get around, it it deterred me from going down there. I slowed down when I was going the other way. I think it's a very, very, very useful um tactic to provide safety for the community. Um, but that has also led The barrier has led to the um alleyway now becoming a two-way street for people who used to go down that the alleyway behind Edgehill. Now there are people going both ways down that alley instead of one-way. So, that's now a safety issue. But, again, my apologies, and I think it's working.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you.

Public Commenter

Yes, Councilman Boggerty, I love what you said because you said everybody's going to want this. I'm sitting back here joking with the guy that's back here because y'all that live on that street, I want to come I want to party with y'all. You sound like Pleasantville, Utopia, I mean, it's it's just like, wow. Everybody's saying how great it is and everything. So, I see why everyone is like, "Well, we want this, too." So, y'all are fun. I want to come to your house, I want to have a picnic, we're all going to get together. Y'all are fun, okay? Can we do that? Yeah, I'm like, y'all are exciting. I want that for my block. Let's let's all do this. I love what you said, Boggerty, Council Boggerty, that was cute. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

I don't know what that meant, but I'll take it. I don't know if that's a compliment or an insult, but either way, it's all good. Who's next? Anybody next? All righty. We're uh We have Councilman Anderson. The chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, uh Mr. Chairman. I'd like to make a motion-

Andre M. Boggerty

No, we have one more.

David L. Anderson

Oh, okay. I will hold the motion then.

Andre M. Boggerty

Oh, Lord, yes! Belinda May! How did we... The chair recognizes Belinda May online. Um, thank you. After Belinda May. Okay, thank you. Belinda May,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Faye, are you ready? Ms. Chisholm-Mayne, can you begin to come up so you can be in click?

Yolanda Mayne

Good evening, Yolanda Mayne. Um, I am, like I said, I am definitely happy that there is a barricade at that specific street. Um, however, like Lonnie had said, what you do for one side of the Dover, you have to do for the other side. So, in the works of getting everything together, of including the barricade on that street, along with other streets that need the same type of speed restriction. Um, I believe there was discussion about some type of cameras on the streets that are heavily um speeding. I know we just, like I said, thank you, council, for the street signs and everything else. But they're not just, that they're they're not stopping everyone. They're mostly now not stopping the people that live within my area. Um, but yes, it does stop the ones that are new to the area. Not saying, you know, we need a barricade or anything. But we do need to make these streets that are heavily trafficking, um, one-way streets. We need to, you know, put the cameras up. We need to continue keeping that barricade there, whether the alleyway behind the stores is used as, you know, a two-way street. There are dumpsters. Move the dumpsters in a way so that it's it's not, you know, an inconvenience for the stores and everything else or for the development that's behind it. My case, like I said, I'm looking forward to at least having cameras or flashing lights or something to go, "Hey, yo. You know, we now have 25 right in your face, and you're not doing 25. You're doing 50. You're doing 60. You're trying to beat the speed limit on the street that literally states what you should be doing." It's It's not council that can do this. It's actually, you know, we need to start taking action with putting the punishment behind the actions that these people are doing. Take down license plate numbers for these these vehicles. Send it to the police department and say, "Look, this person was speeding down the street." It's not necessarily, you know, neighborhood watch, but it's a neighborhood. As they say, you can't raise a child alone. You raise it as, you know, a village. Well, we need to protect everyone within our village, not just, you know, this side of Dover, that side of Dover, this street, that street. We need to protect everyone, and we need to make everyone accountable for whatever actions that they are making that are not appropriate, like speeding down the street. Obviously, it's a law that says there's a speed limit, not because we feel like it, but that's just because it's the law. So, we need to hold those who are not following the law accountable. And we also need to make sure that people are seeing these things, bright lights that come on that say, "Look, 25. Don't go down this street."

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Ms. Mayne. We appreciate you. Um, your comments are noted. Um, to Chair, I'm not, so I'm not jumping in.

David L. Anderson

Can you hear me now, sir?

Unknown Speaker

And it and it is related to this topic.

David L. Anderson

It's not.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, then I'm going to have to ask you to to table that for open discussion, because if it's not within the scope, we have to stay within the scope of our of our topic what's on the agenda. It's not an agenda item then.

Unknown Speaker

Well, when would be the next agenda?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

The well, we have uh open forum or depending, yeah. Well, open forum yesterday, so it's two Mondays from now. Open forum, or you can submit your your concern to the city clerk, city clerk's office via email, and respond in or we address it at the next open forum. No, nobody

Unknown Speaker

I'm sure does. Yeah, he showed up.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I appreciate, thank you for being a caring citizen. Now that there is no other issue, um we have um what's called um before us, we have our staff recommendations, which kind of allows for a painting. Um if anyone of my colleagues with the committee members would like to make you have a question?

David L. Anderson

Uh, I just want to make a motion uh. Thank you, uh and and if they want to discuss, that's fine. I I just move that we uh uh continue the uh the the current uh safety arrangement and uh uh ask staff to review some of the options heard tonight and and bring us back um other options. And I I do think that some of these other roads, by the way, uh we we do need to look at longer run with uh items such as, you know, striping more of our roads and and other things. And but but this road is unique, Mr. Chairman, as it even with the closure, it has two entrances. It's only a 24-foot road, which uh if it were built today wouldn't be a two-way street. It is um it has no sidewalk, and it's uh uh and it's connecting a commercial district, a heavily traveled commercial district. So, there aren't really any other roads similarly situated in the city. So, that's why. So, I just move that we continue the the current arrangement, and staff uh comes back with a um recommendation.

Tricia K. Arndt

Second.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

It's been properly moved and seconded by um the members of the committee. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye.

David L. Anderson

Aye.

Unknown Speaker

Aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right, opposed? Motion carries. Thank you. Um Discussion? Discussion?

Unknown Speaker

It's over now.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Okay. Discussion. I didn't I didn't see you.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you. I have no objection in supporting Councilman Anderson's ordinance uh with the agreement that uh Mr. Lyon looks into uh the gate option, uh closing off the road permanently, uh or cement barriers.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I think that was part of the uh motion as well.

David L. Anderson

Yes.

Brian E. Lewis

Yeah, uh I wanted to make sure though that's put on the record.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, thank you. Any other discussion? All right. So, it's been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye.

David L. Anderson

Aye.

Unknown Speaker

Aye.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

All right, opposed? Motion carries. Uh, we move to agenda item number 2. Um, depending on where you're from, Lockerman or close is Loockerman Plaza Pedestrian Improvement Update, uh Paul Moser, DelDOT, and Jason Lyon, Assistant City Manager.

Jason Lyon

Good evening, Chair, uh fellow committee members and citizens of the City of Dover. Uh, Jason Lyon, Assistant City Manager. I am going to introduce Paul of DelDOT uh with a point that this is a follow-up for a uh topic that we had in late April with regard to some of the safety improvements in Forest Street and DelDOT. Thank you.

Paul Moser

Yeah, Council, um thanks for having me. I appreciate it. And uh a quick aside, can I make a comment real quick just personally about the last part?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah.

Paul Moser

4 miles an hour decrease in 85th percentile speed is a big deal. I do a lot of projects like that. That is successful, and those testimonies are even more successful. So, I know you guys got a lot of challenges ahead of you with good decisions to make, but um big props to you guys, both staff and council, for just doing something to get it started. Because that's I know that's hard in the traffic space because everyone interacts with it, so yeah, just kudos to you guys on that. So, I'm here to just follow up, like Jason said. Uh, we presented on a project concept that we had that came to us at DelDOT. Um, by the way, my name is Paul Moser, professional engineer with Delaware Department of Transportation, active transportation, community connections section. We do walking, cycling, urban streetscape projects. So, this project came to us from the Dover/Kent MPO uh came into our program uh last year um, ranked well um, as a very heavily pedestrian-trafficked area. Um, this project can make a big impact on connectivity and improving safety in that area. So, we moved into project development. And last time I came to you guys, we were just kicking off the project to look at what those improvements might look like. Uh, Dover/Kent in their Downtown Dover Pathways Plan had a couple of options, mostly just related to connecting the sidewalk uh and put some crossings near the library for transit. Uh, next slide, please.

Paul Moser

So, uh a couple of goals: uh really just try to slow down traffic, nothing crazy, uh but, you know, those are about like 24-foot wide lanes in both directions with parking. Um, very, very solid pavement space. So, make the make some crossings midblock crossings that people could cross uh there's not really a great location for crossing in the middle of the plaza. You just kind of do it. Um, but formalizing those locations a little bit, try to put them where they help to make it more visible, uh including installing rectangular rapid flash beacons, little uh yellow flashy lights that pulse the same as a lot of EMS light patterns, looking at changing some of the crossovers, again adding sidewalk extending from where the coffee shop is and then towards the east, uh make the crossing Federal Street maybe a little more sense and try to make things look a little bit nicer. Next slide, please.

Paul Moser

So, this is kind of the concept. I'm going to go into the a little of the details around it, but it's a relatively small, compact project. But we think that it's going to make things a little bit nicer around here. Uh, this is really the extent is just on the other side of the bank entrance from Town Hall up to uh you know, bounce crossing Federal Street. Next slide, please.

Paul Moser

So, zooming in uh on this section at the library, this is pretty simple. There's there are two main parts I want to focus on. One is a midblock pedestrian cross. You can't really see with the lighting on the screen, but we're putting in a crosswalk uh that's going to connect from the library directly to Federal Street. You can see down in the bottom right of that screen on Federal Street, we're also doing what's called a curb extension on both sides. Uh that does two things: that's going to decrease the pedestrian crossing distance of Loockerman and Federal, so it's a shorter, smaller distance across. It's going to improve sight lines for people making those turns, um hopefully slow people down making that right-hand turn, and then also include the bus stop on the bottom right side. So, they the bus will now be able to board in the lane, which is the preference of DART for state transit. Um and, you know, there'll be more green space and you know, I think make the place look a lot nicer. Um it'll be aesthetically pleasing improvement. We're going to extend the median crossover, put a sidewalk so you can get that crosswalk, and then at the top side by the library, we're going to put a little curb extension. So, again, the goal there is just to create a very, very visible place where people can and should be crossing uh and try to make that as safe as possible. Uh, should I stop here for questions on each piece?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Yeah, go ahead. Hold on, hold on. For the record, the chair recognizes Councilman Sudler. Thank thank you, Chair.

Andre M. Boggerty

Um, so uh in regards to DelDOT capital projects objectives, do you ever come across a scenario where um what you have implemented may need to be walked back because it's not conducive uh to the business owner or to safety? And I'm talking particularly to I think it's I think it's West Division Street in front of uh Bennie Smith Funeral Home,

Paul Moser

Yeah, yeah, the two-way cycle...

Andre M. Boggerty

where we've had a lot of...

Paul Moser

Oh, I've heard about it. My supervisor is the project manager.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. It it I really really really need them to walk that back if possible, you know, because um it impedes upon their business and the when they're dealing with, you know, the bereavement process,

Paul Moser

Yeah, I can have them reach out to either DelDOT PR on that, or if you have a history with my supervisor Jeff Niezgoda, reach out to them on that topic because I'm...

Andre M. Boggerty

Right, but if you could just convey...

Paul Moser

Oh, I'll mention it, sure.

Andre M. Boggerty

that we are interested um because we've brought this up before, and not to take up your time, but since we're on, you know, bicycle lane, because I do the bicycling as well, um it's not that safe and um you know, it does impede upon, you know, the bereavement uh process.

Paul Moser

Yeah, a a letter from the city to DelDOT...

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes, if you can definitely convey that, I would appreciate that. However, um moving away from that topic, still on a biking topic, um my fellow councilman uh Rocha, Councilman Rocha and I, we've talked about the multi-use pathway. Instead of uh the the 4-foot walkway, where are we with implementing the 6-foot or the 8-foot asphalt multi-purpose, so that those individuals uh who feel safer riding a bike, riding, you know, um See, when it comes to e-bikes versus um those individuals who are pedaling, there's a difference. Um, I know I feel safer, I don't have an e-bike, but I feel safer on the sidewalk versus um in the bike lane.

Paul Moser

Sure.

Andre M. Boggerty

Those who have the e-bike, um they don't have to really pay too much attention to, you know, bicycling, actually, the physical component of bicycling, and then also looking to see if the traffic is coming, because they they don't have to cycle, they're just, you know, cruising and then looking. Um, so in other words, where are we, or is there any plans to convert some of these sidewalks like we did on Salisbury Road to multipurpose uh 6- to 8-foot uh walkways? I think that would be a little bit more conducive uh try also going green, you know. I think that would be more conducive for us like they're doing in Lewes and and Rehoboth Beach. So, have y'all had some discussion in that matter?

Presenter

So we don't have kind of construction phasing at this point. No, we're not there yet. So

Presenter

we'll coordinate with you guys on that. I'll make sure that we know that's a sensitive topic. But we usually we can get away with things like this using partial closures. All right?

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. The Chair recognizes Council President Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just want to thank you, cuz when I looked at this in the packet, it was pretty much exactly what I recognize that we had talked about. And, including the new crosswalk area because we get a lot of traffic over between City Hall and across, so thank you. I yield.

Brian E. Lewis

Chair recognizes Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. Thank you for your patience and being here tonight. I know you've got to go to work tomorrow as we all do.

Presenter

This is entertainment. I didn't come here, so this is, yeah, something.

Tricia K. Arndt

A couple of questions. Well, just a statement really. With the the pathways, I just want to make sure that the material used is in keeping with the context of a historic downtown. I would not want to see an asphalt walkway in that vicinity. I don't think it, it just doesn't go with our brick sidewalks and our cement sidewalks. My other question is at the bus stop. So in this concept, the bus would be stopping in the lane and stopping traffic?

Presenter

Yes.

Tricia K. Arndt

I'm not totally sold on that. I think the way the bus stops now, you can still maneuver around it and traffic continues to flow. I think I would prefer to keep it that way rather than the bus stopping traffic in the lane.

Presenter

Yeah, if I remember correctly, there actually probably is enough space to get around a bus, but I'll confirm that. It's very wide there. But yeah, that is sort of DART's, you know, preferred way of loading and unloading buses is in the lane. And increasingly, especially at that corner, too, people can park in the way of it and obstruct where the bus stop is. I've seen that occasionally. I can't say that I've paid a ton of attention to it. But, you know, city moments, it happens all the time, and you get people with disabilities who have to unload a wheelchair, that becomes a real accessibility hazard. So, you know, this is I guess probably the elbows out concept on this topic. We want to see what you guys thought about that, so that is a good point of conversation for all of you. And another great point of conversation you brought up is the brick sidewalks. This concept shown here is showing concrete, and if you guys want to have brick sidewalks, I would like to know from, you know, historic council and staff what your preferences are on that. Because we would default towards concrete usually. Our Americans with Disabilities Act people tend to prefer that, but there's no reason we can't also do brick. So we are flexible, but recommendations coming from our accessibility people are usually concrete. But, you know, there's a bit of conflict with the historic area and the context, so we understand and we're sensitive to it.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you for that. I appreciate the efforts. I just ask that the look and feel be consistent with what is existing. I yield.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you. Chair recognizes Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. On slide 44, where the island in front of the church and the daycare center, where the sidewalk is going to be, I guess you're going to extend that part out further into the street?

Presenter

Yes.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Is that, is the parking going to, cuz right now it's parallel.

Presenter

Sorry. It will move up with it. Yes, all the parking will be

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And there's enough room for that?

Presenter

Yes, plenty.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. And then parking on the other side, too?

Presenter

Yes. Where there's going to be, I believe, two spaces impacted in front of the library. We can probably minimize that to one if we're careful. And then with the bus loading area, I believe that is three spaces. But you know, people really shouldn't probably be parking there anyway, so that's that. Okay, yeah. But yeah, it's one or two spaces impacted.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Like in front of City Hall almost, I think it is, along there, like three or four parking spaces there. And then, are the trees going to get cut back, or

Presenter

If they need to be, yes. Yeah. Yeah, they would be. And that's something, you know, from an accessibility standpoint, you guys will probably be on the hook for long-term maintenance of. That said, we do have a grass buffer that we're showing there, and you know, that's usually for comfort and perception of safety for people walking on the sidewalk. But we can probably squeeze an extra foot, push the sidewalk closer to the curb if you really wanted to, so a little more room from the tree limbs.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah.

Presenter

Yeah, that's not something that we're, we didn't necessarily consider that in the concept phase, but yeah, it's a good point to make.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. I yield.

Brian E. Lewis

All right. Thank you. All righty. Well, there's no further action, there's no action required on

Presenter

Yeah, I got a couple more slides. I made this last week, so my memory is a bit, uh

Brian E. Lewis

Next slide, please.

Presenter

Crosswalk. All right, next slide, please. So here we are, summer, end of summer, I guess, beginning of fall. So we want to do a public workshop. I was thinking November 10th. I have that tentatively penciled in my calendar unless there's something really popping going on in Dover that I should know about. We're going to host a public workshop somewhere. I was thinking the library, unless you guys have a better venue for that. Sometimes these workshops, we get seven people, you know, but it's part of our process. And then our goal is, you know, we're actually working right now on our preliminary plan set. We'll be sending that over to Jason soon so that he can review that. We can also incorporate some of the feedback now, especially notes for materials and they need some slight fine tuning stuff. And our goal is to wrap up the design of this project in early 2027, so we're sort of on a fast design course for this one. And then assuming that we have budget in the program, which we should, but we're getting pounded by inflation right now. So hopefully, we'll get that ready to bid. Then it'll probably be maybe construction late 2027 if everything goes to plan, but I say "if" with a strong "if". There are potential hurdles that could threaten the schedule a little bit. That's what we're going for. That's our optimistic schedule.

Brian E. Lewis

Next slide? Okay. All right.

Presenter

Oh, yeah. Yeah, November 10th. I thought I had nine. I thought nine was the number. I already went into this. Yeah, nothing further. November 10th, I think we're going to do that. And next slide. And then if you have any questions, yeah, you guys can reach me anytime.

David L. Anderson

Just a quick statement, Mr. Chairman. November 10th is fine if that's what you want. I just want you to be aware that is the night of Council Committee of the Whole.

Presenter

And you guys start at 6:00, right?

David L. Anderson

Yes. Okay, thank you.

Presenter

Should I Should we pregame it and have like a 5:00 a.m. 5:00 p.m. workshop?

David L. Anderson

Nothing wrong with that. Nothing wrong with that.

Presenter

Does that sound good? Okay, maybe I'll see if the library is open at 5:00. Thank you.

Brian E. Lewis

All right. There's no There's no action. Thank you. If there If there are no other questions, I'll call for the adjournment of our meeting for the Safety Advisory and Transportation, and I'll turn it back over to our Council President.

David L. Anderson

Uh, thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh next item on the agenda is the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee. The Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee is now called to order. We have before us the adoption of the agenda. Is there a motion?

Tricia K. Arndt

So moved.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Second. Second.

David L. Anderson

Okay. Is there, there was a motion and second. All discussion? All in favor? Any opposed? Motion carries.

David L. Anderson

Uh first item on the agenda is GitUp Foundation presentation, Youth Sports and Community Center feasibility study proposal, Mr. Dante Daniel, Chief Operating Officer, and Terrez Trott, Chief Executive Officer. Thank you, gentlemen.

David L. Anderson

And when you, and when you, uh make sure, please, uh for the recording, that at the first time to say your name for the record so that if, they have it attributed to the right person. Thank you.

Terrez Trott

Thank you, Mayor, City Council members. Good evening. My name is Terrez Trott. I am the CEO and co-founder of GitUp Foundation.

Dante Daniel

My name is Dante Dr. Dante Daniel, I'm the Chief Operating Officer of GitUp Foundation.

Terrez Trott

Um thank you for allowing us to present tonight. I also want to thank everyone who's stuck with us tonight. It's been a long and late meeting, so we appreciate you guys sticking around with us. The reason why we are here is because we're proposing that the city take the first responsible step in exploring a youth sports and performance center.

Terrez Trott

Um we're not asking um the city to approve uh to uh for money for construction, for debt, or operational. Um we're asking for an independent study so everyone can make a future decision based on the facts. Next slide, please.

Terrez Trott

Um our request is for up to $50,000 um uh for economic development from the Economic Development Fund for an independent market, financial feasibility, economic impact study. The study will test demand, compare possible sites and the facility size, estimate costs, measure economic benefits, and independent realistic funding options. The consultant may recommend that Dover proceed, modify the concept, phase it out, relocate, or stop. This is exactly why the study matters. Again, approving the request will not approve the building, debt, a site, or operations. Next slide, please.

Terrez Trott

What the study does: the study will answer three basic questions. Is there enough real demand? Can it operate responsibly responsibly? And what economic value could Dover receive? This is this is the fact-finding step that should happen before a larger public decision has been made. Next slide, please.

Terrez Trott

We conducted a study, um a survey. I'm sorry, we conducted a survey. Uh 609 people completed the survey. Uh 597 came from Delaware residents. Almost 96% supported exploring the center. Almost 90% of their household said they were likely to use it. Residents place a greatest the greatest value on youth sports and recreation. They also identify safety, after-school programming, health and wellness, workforce development as important outcomes. We understand that a community survey is not a feasibility study, it shows strong interest and perceived need, which is why an independent market study analysis should come next. Next slide, please.

Presenter

Um, so basically, we have an economic ecosystem right here in Dover. We're somewhat ignoring it. Again, we spoke about NASCAR. Dover's not Dover is used to a high volume of traffic occurring here. Unfortunately, it happens twice a year, I believe in the spring and then the fall, when I was a child here in Dover, at Dover Downs NASCAR. What we're trying to do is we're trying to generate that on a monthly basis. We're trying to have it one to two times a month, at least, right, which would leave us at about 20 to 24 tournaments, uh, similar to Spooky Nook, Pennsylvania, in Manheim, Pennsylvania. So what I'm going to speak to is this is the case study in our proposal, but if you didn't read it,

Presenter

um, Spooky Nook generated, in FY excuse me, 2017, there was an independent study on Spooky Nook and their economic impact. They generated over $100 million for Lancaster County, this one facility, of economic activity for the county Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. Very similar county to Sussex Kent County. It is in Manheim, Pennsylvania, if you want to look it up, as well as we provided our link to the proposal. You can also explore it in there, and the references are also provided. But what we're trying to do is develop a community and economic ecosystem where we're providing a social good, workforce development, youth engagement,

Presenter

uh, and more so a community center during the week. And during the weekends, between Friday and Sunday, also, um, create, uh, generate that revenue where we have outside visitors from, you know, the regional area, possibly national area, come to the city of Dover, develop that foot traffic, and also, um, you know, contribute to the local economy here. We're hopeful to possibly, right now, we have Bally's working in a silo. We have Dover Mall right next to it, and somewhat looks like a graveyard out there, right?

Presenter

What we're trying to do is we're trying to, more so, not consolidate, but collaborate these two entities, as well as Del State across the street, which we will speak to in, uh, future slides. But we're trying to develop this ecosystem where, as we can see, working in a silo has not necessarily been the most successful effort in the city of Dover. And therefore, if we're able to collaborate and work together, maybe we can possibly, uh, develop, uh, a communal aspect as far as gaining some economic traction here in the city of Dover. So this is just somewhat our imagination at best, but that's what the independent study is for, to explore if this is possibly even doable for the city of Dover. But we're going to need a third party to actually that's an expert in this to actually explore. Next slide, please.

Presenter

So we met with the president of Delaware State. Uh, so, I'm sure you're familiar with Delaware State yourself, but we met with, uh, President Tony Allen, and, you know, when we spoke with them, uh, sorry, I don't have my glasses on, but we spoke to different measures. We spoke to Delaware State wants an indoor turf field. We said, "Well, you don't necessarily have to get it yourself, but we can work together possibly and ultimately achieve this." We also spoke to internships, a career, uh, excuse me, a graduate to employment pipeline, so we're therefore we're

Presenter

retaining some talent here in the city of Dover with recent graduates of Dover, Delaware. Even if they just stay here 2 years, that's 2 years we've retained college graduates and college talent, whether it be in the technol- the IT field, whether it be in the medical field, whether it be in, you know, criminal justice, whatever it may be. Ultimately, we can retain that talent. And also, while speaking to him, he he we were exploring ideas of land that they have by Sam's Club, I believe, in that area. And we spoke to possibly utilizing land there. But the caveat to that was we would need to add an event center for graduations, ceremonies, whatever it may be that Del State wants to hold. Also, the concerts, I believe at homecoming time. So, uh, that was one of the caveats. You know, we said we would like to further explore, but that's again, I want to reiterate, that is what the independent study will explore: if that is actually doable, if it's feasible, and, you know, we'll see from there. So next slide, please.

Presenter

So we selected Victus Advisors. We met with two other um partners. Let me get the names of those. Uh, we met with Sports Facilities Companies and Pinnacle Indoor Sports. What we did like about um Victus uh advisors, excuse me, was that they specialize in market demand, financial feasibility, economic impact, and facility operations. They also already conducted a study in the state of Delaware recently uh in Wilmington or Newark, Delaware, I believe, for a track and field up there.

Presenter

Um, also, they have a flat fee, $50,000. What do you know? Coincidentally, right? So, flat fee, we don't have to worry about being, uh, ambushed with, uh, ancillary fees, hidden fees, whatever it may be. And with that flat fee structure, you know, we cut the check. They conduct the study, or they conduct the study, we cut the check. I don't know necessarily the order of it. And from there, we wait 12 weeks, and we wait for this independent study. And the best thing about this independent study is it's public. So anybody can take advantage of it. Anybody can take advantage. It's not just left for us. We have an idea. We feel like we have some potential investors that we've spoken to tentatively, but, unfortunately, we can't necessarily go to these investors without somewhat of a a plan. Next slide, please.

Presenter

So, um, so a request of $50,000 is not a construction funding plan. It's literally just developing some evidence to support whether we should proceed with this. Um, we have to do something. We can't sit on our hands. Uh, and we have to find some means of gene- generating revenue. I believe you spoke to generating revenue for the city of Dover, and you said we have to do something, literally. Verbatim is what she said. And excuse me, that this is something. Oh, this is something, right? We have to find some means of exploring, and we're going to have to spend money in order to make money. Um, we can I understand that there are several other projects that have now arised since we made our announcement: uh, gyms into the Kent County area. Those are providing social good, but one basketball court is not going to generate revenue. Eight basketball courts will. That's 16 teams playing at once, whether it be wrestling, volleyball, futsal, indoor mat cheerleading, whatever it may be. But I encourage you to look at our proposal. It is 91 pages, but a lot of it is the appendix. So next slide, please.

Presenter

Okay. So we spoke about potential investors. Uh, we have Jordan Smith Jr. Senior on he's online. He could not make it today. He had a meeting with Klutch Sports and New Balance. But his son, Jordan Smith Jr., his father is from Dover, Delaware. Graduated 2002. First team Second Team All-State, excuse me. And his son happens to be the second best player in the nation last year in high school. He is at the University of Arkansas. As you can see, he's a gold medal recipient. Uh, in addition, he's projected to be the number two pick of the NBA draft for 2027. Uh, he has now signed to New Balance, which is why we have New Balance on. Free it's free items. In addition, in addition, he's signed to Klutch Sports. We've met with New Balance about this potential opportunity. They spoke to us about the independent uh market feasibility study.

Presenter

We said we'll try to get them, you know. Um, and they want to see some level of support and not resistance from the city of Dover, especially when it comes to land acquisitions, you know, whatever it may be. So therefore, um, we're going to utilize this to our leverage, um, you know. We're going to try to maximize on the potential of what this could possibly be. Um, we have already conducted some community outreach with, uh, Jordan Smith, also trying to develop him as a young man and get him to understand that, you know, uh, community engagement, youth engagement is actually empowering the next generation, and it doesn't stop at him. So, um, yeah, he won national player of the year, Gatorade Player of the Year, you name it, he won it. Uh, I encourage you to go on YouTube and look up Jordan Smith Jr. Next slide, please.

Presenter

Um, so this is actually a sneaker drop that we have with New Balance. So we met with New Balance, and we actually um we collaborated, and we conducted a backpack backpack giveaway as well as clothing and sneaker drop. We handed out free New Balances, free t-shirts, New Balance t-shirts, free New Balance sweatpants, book bags as well. And with that, um, yeah, we're just showing the development. So that is a picture of us. He's in the center. His father is actually to the left in the red and black jersey. They're both about 6'2". And, um, let's pray for a good season. So next slide, please.

Presenter

So, uh, Councilmember Rocha asked us about the phases. What does this look like in the development? Right now, we're at step one. We just want to conduct the feasibility study, right? Um, with that feasibility study, it's just going to, more so, uh, it's going to inform us of if we can even proceed with the next stages, which is stakeholder engagement, investor engagement. We plan on it going to the 76ers. Why? They're going to make the most money they're ever going to make these next 2 years signing LeBron James, right, right? We plan on going to New Balance. We plan on going to, uh, Klutch Sports, which is Rich Paul, LeBron James, working in unison. So we plan on utilizing these potential investors, and we still have the state. Again, 4.1 million went to Delaware Turf right here in Kent County, Dover. The city of Dover didn't receive a dollar. I think that's a travesty for the city of Dover, and I think we need to take the opportunity to take advantage of this uh, of these funding mechanisms that are available to us that

Presenter

um, I would say that we're not necessarily taking advantage of. Uh, from there, we get into construction, probably a 2- to 3-year project. We're hoping ideally at the Dover Mall, just because we're trying to revitalize that community, uh, make it look like somewhat of a Union Market in Washington, northeast Washington, D.C. where you bring this foot traffic there, that will bring retail, that will bring entertainment, that will bring restaurants, and then therefore, hopefully some residential units there as well, right? So it's plenty of space over there.

Presenter

Um, and then from there, we get into the operations and planning. We will have to be a sign We will have to hire employees, but we will also have to begin negotiating with working with tournaments such as EYBL and, etcetera. Uh, program development and implementation, we have plenty of commu- community members with talent, skill sets, that that they can actually transfer to the next generation. Uh, we're hoping for workforce development, whether that be barber school, which one of our um one of the constituents will actually be speaking to, whether it be yoga, whether it be information technology. Again, we have a lot of talent right across the street from the Dover Mall that can act- actually be utilized, and we can get these social work interns, which they have to complete internship hours. I have an MSW. I had to complete internship hours myself. That can be done at the center as well. And again, community center during the week, revenue maker during the weekends. Uh, and then, ultimately, opening day is what we call it. So next slide, please.

Presenter

Um, so and somewhat in conclusion, we do agree on the standards, fiscal responsibility. We understand there are some fiscal hawks here, and therefore, um, we we agree with you. That's why we're not asking for you to build, dig a hole. We're not asking for you to pay for a building. We're not asking for anything with the exploration of generating revenue for the city. Again, we cannot just continue to hold the money in our pocket and think that and pray that we get out this cycle of being in a deficit with this, which is, which has which has been occurring on an annual basis.

Presenter

We need to explore some means of receiving an ROI and also maintaining accountability. Accountability that we're not asking for $50k. We're asking for it to go to a third party. We don't want a dollar. We don't want a penny of it. We don't want to touch it. We simply So therefore, there's no accountability issues. There's no lack thereof. Um, and you know, we won't necessarily need to receive any oversight. We plan on going to potential investors ourselves, as well as others can do this as well. If you have the capital, I encourage you, once post-study, to explore means of contributing to this project. Um, and also, in the wise words of Councilmember Brian Lewis, who wrote an op-ed when the Railhaus actually received $50,000 from the economic from the from the Community Development Fund or excuse me, the Economic and Community Development Fund, uh, a for-profit beer garden, uh, I believe it's our duty to safeguard public resources and invest in initiatives that deliver clear long-term benefits and savings to all residents.

Presenter

I think we meet the criteria for that. We also We agree wholeheartedly with that, but the first responsible investment will be the study. So we ask that you please approve the $50,000 from the Economic Community Development Fund. Thank you.

Presenter

Next slide, please. Is that it? It's a video, but obviously it's not playing, right? It's just our vision. It's not a big deal.

Presenter

You can go to our Facebook. Um, yeah, so this is just the appendix. This is just the regional market that we plan on tapping into, so.

David L. Anderson

All right. Um, thank you.

Presenter

All right.

David L. Anderson

Um, let's, um, get to questions. So getting late tonight, so. Uh, all right, Dr. Sudler, and, uh, Councilman Boggerty. Okay. Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Chairman Anderson, for recognizing me. Very well-orchestrated. I I think, um, you definitely did exhibit a a robust background in the gap in services that's needed for the youth. Um, I love the fact that you acknowledged that we do have a deficit and you worked around that in your uh, persuasive approach. Um, I also like the fact that you are trying to generate capital for the capital of Delaware. Uh, in addition to that, uh, your youth engagement, uh, it sounds like it goes beyond basketball, uh, also dealing with social and emotional challenges and providing, uh, the youth with psychological defense mechanisms, uh, to cope with those challenges. Uh, I just have one question. Where's my New Balances? No, I'm just joking.

Presenter

We do plan on doing a giveaway here, though, so.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Now, we appreciate you, brother. But, on the on the on the real, um, very, very well, very well put together. I want to give you a round of applause. Everyone, come on. I want to offer to you, um, to please, uh, come to, uh, the Mayor's Blue Ribbon Opioid Use Disorder task force meeting on October 7th here in City Hall chambers on the 6th. Since you are dealing with, uh, psychological challenges, social and emotional challenges dealing with youth, I believe that, um, your framework that you have here can fit into our OUD, um, youth real cost campaign, and I believe that, uh, you should come and do a presentation or a quick synopsis to our committee

Roy Sudler, Jr.

and see how we can help you, uh, with the $50,000, uh, amount. Now, I can't say I can't speak for the entire body, but as the chairperson, I can say that does this does fit within the scope of the exhibit E, uh, guidelines for, you know, OUD, uh, usage, remediation, and abatement usage.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So I know I'm just trying to provide you another avenue to to gain, uh, income in regards to this matter for your assessment, because it's dealing with youth. We are dealing with youth right now in our campaign, and I believe that, um, that seemed where you make your your framework make fit in. And at the very least, if it doesn't fit in, well, I'm sure it fits in our framework, but if if it's too late or if for some reason we can't assist you or partner with you, we can also, uh, forward your information to the state Opioid Use Disorder, uh, Committee. And they have a lot more money than we have, okay? And a lot more resources. And, um, I'm sure with our recommendation, or at least with I won't say recommendation, but more so with our eye, uh, in one, you know, your framework, um, that they'll also consider that inside of their framework as well, because, you know, they're also looking for organizations such as yours that's put together, recognizes the gap in services, uh, that relates or correlates with the Opioid Use Disorder, uh, challenges and aims.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

So I want to offer that to you and say thank you. Um, both of you did an excellent job. You all did an excellent job, uh, and and we also thank you for, like I said, uh, bringing up the fact that you acknowledge that we do have some monetary challenges. Um, but, you know, uh, we can help you in any way we can. I'm sure we will. I yield. Thank you for recognizing me, Chair.

Presenter

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Councilman Boggerty, you're recognized.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Thank you, uh, Council President. Ah, and with with with the council, uh, president's permission, I see two young gentlemen with papers that look like they have something to say. They've been stellar, and it's been a long night. Um, and, um, I if I know we don't go back to public form, but these young men have been here and stellar. And I I want to yield some of my time to them. First, I have a couple questions. What school do you go to?

Joshua Pritchett

I go to Campus Community School.

Andre M. Boggerty

You go to Campus Community?

Joshua Pritchett

Yes, sir.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. So when you get done, what's your teacher? Cuz we want to email them how about your social studies, your civics lesson. So when you get done, tell him your teacher's name, and they're going to get an email from Councilman Boggerty to say that you were doing civic uh work today. Hopefully, you get some extra credit. All right. Now, go ahead.

David L. Anderson

And and what's your name, please?

Joshua Pritchett

Joshua Pritchett.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. You may continue.

Joshua Pritchett

Hi. I'm Joshua Pritchett. I'm 10 years old, and I'm here in I and I live in Dover. I am here today because I support the Get Work Project. As a kid who loves sports, I know how important it is for us to have a place that is positive to go somewhere we can practice, learn, and get better, be around people who push us to be our best. As a place like Get Work is sports performance center, not just will be around for sports, it will give kids like me a place to belong. We can help with school, have mentors, learn new things, and stay active. I wouldn't have to spend weekends traveling as West Virginia to go to tournaments and events that can be hosted right here in Dover. We need more places in Dover that are there for us, that believe in us, and give us something positive to work toward. Sometimes adults make decisions about what kids need, but I wanted to come here so you could hear from an actual kid. Thank you for listening.

Andre M. Boggerty

Hold on. I have some questions. You can't get away that fast. So you go away to which which what sport do you play?

Joshua Pritchett

Football.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. You play football, so you have to travel most weekends to go play?

Joshua Pritchett

I travel to places like

Pritchett Brother

...Bristol, Pennsylvania, Conshohocken, Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and other places.

Andre M. Boggerty

What position you play?

Pritchett Brother

Running back and wide receiver.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. All right. And what team is it?

Pritchett Brother

Calvin 7. Camden Eagles.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay, Eagles. All right. Good stuff. All right, thank you. And I mean that. When you get done, can I get your teacher's name and we can make sure... All right, thank you. And so next, who's the next?

Jamal Snead

Thank you. Council President, if you will allow kindness.

Jamar Pritchett, Jr.

Hello, Mayor Christiansen and City Council members. My name is Jamar Pritchett Jr. I am here tonight to speak on, in support of The Get Work Project. We need places where we can grow, stay active, learn, learn and learn discipline, and be around people who expect something good from us. The Get Work Project can give kids like me more opportunities to learn about hard work, teamwork, responsibility, sports development, and being a great leader for people and people, right here in Dover. I think investing in a place for young people is also investing in the future of our city. Because one day, me and my brother will be some of some of the adults sitting here, in these seats, as the as the as the audience and even as a council member. I hope you will support The Get Work Project and give more kids like me a place in Dover where we can work hard, grow, and become better. Thank you for your time.

Andre M. Boggerty

Wait, but how old are you?

Jamar Pritchett, Jr.

I'm 11.

Andre M. Boggerty

You play sports, too? What do you play?

Jamar Pritchett, Jr.

I play tackle football and basketball.

Andre M. Boggerty

What position do you play?

Jamar Pritchett, Jr.

Corner.

Andre M. Boggerty

Who's the best?

Jamar Pritchett, Jr.

Me.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Thank you, young gentlemen. Thank you both.

Andre M. Boggerty

They might have saved your presentation. All the slides, the kids might have got it. That was good. You should have started and ended with them. But I have a couple questions, seriously. Um, when I first got to council, one of my desires was to was a rec center, and then we I've learned from one of my former council members, Ralph Taylor and Councilman Anderson and others who were on that there was a survey done, and they wanted a water park, etc. Um, so um again, you know, it's right now. But now I have some questions. If not Dover, have you considered the county? For example, I know an individual who has the Dream Field, I believe, and they were trying to develop that. Have you inquired about added some addition to that area? You don't have to give away your your um you know your plan completely, obviously. But uh you know, that's one question.

Jamal Snead

Yeah, so we considered other areas. Um what I will say is that, you know, Kent County has other facilities. There's a smaller facility in Kent County down in Camden or Wyoming area, and there's a basketball gym actually. I believe Kent Peters just announced that they will be hosting, you know, they're providing some level of social good at that facility, as well as you have Kent County, I mean Delaware Turf down there as well. More so in the Camden area you have John Pitts Recreation Center, I believe as well, which is limited on hours, but, you know. Um so, you know, one of the issues we see with the City of Dover is even with its youth facilities or sports facilities is really meant for senior citizens when you really think about it, because they're in school during the school during most of the active hours of that facility. When they get out of that out of school between 3:30 and if they play a sport or something, it's 5:00, right? Those facilities close about 8:00 p.m., so, you know, that leaves them 3 hours possibly a day, possibly 4 hours a day, 5 days out of the week, when in reality, it's open from 8:00 until let's just say 8:00 p.m. hypothetically, at least 12 hours for seniors. So in reality, its intention is for senior citizens, whether we want to acknowledge that or not. We're hopeful to provide that asset to the City of Dover, as we are two Dover High graduates. We are from Dover, Delaware. Um and particularly we're rooting for Dover, Delaware, and, you know, my background, I worked at DC Council for several years. I worked as a policy advisor for council members, also Chairman Mendelson, who I truly admire his work that he did that he has conducted in Washington, D.C. I know about budgets on an annual basis, um the annual report that one of the organizations fail to provide as well. Like I know the importance of this. And what I saw was a deficit on the annual basis. My first step, because this started as a conversation of just gym accessibility, but I thought a bit when I actually conducted my research, I then learned about youth crime arrests actually increasing. I learned about the deficit. I learned about accessibility and the limited accessibility to accessing sports facilities. I know, I'm aware, fully aware of Dover Mall, as well as Bally's. I, you know, hearsay because I live in Washington, D.C., was always, for the last several years was always on the threshold of closing. You know, and what I do realize is when I was a child, Dover Mall was very active. Dover Downs was very active or, you know, and um I just felt like that revitalisation can actually, and re-vitalization could actually occur for the community as I watched Middletown significantly improve. Middletown was a dirt road when I was a child. Uh Milford was almost the equivalent, right? And I'm watching these cities on the uptick, and I'm somewhat seeing a decline in the City of Dover, looking at the Dover Mall, looks like the Blue Hen Mall, man. You know, historically the Blue Hen Mall was the close, I mean was the was the graveyard of malls. But so what I this particular project is special to Dover and also trying to become a partner and an asset to the City of Dover. We don't necessarily want to go anywhere else, because we feel that this is an asset at least worth exploring and allow don't allow us to make promises to you. Allow the third party, the expert opinion, I mean the expert analysis to conduct the analysis, and we receive the report back. We're not asking you to build a building. We'll handle that. We're not asking um for you to put a shovel in the ground. We're not asking for the manual labor. You know, we we plan on going to private investors and also the state. But we do want to show some level of buy-in from the City of Dover before actually approaching the state. Dover Partnership received $150,000 for several years, at least since 2019, before they actually received state funding, which they received about $25 million, which means they had to prove, show and prove to the state that there was some level of investment from the City of Dover, $150,000 on an annual basis. You know, we're not asking for that. We're not asking for We're asking for one-time $40,000 fee. This is not a social good project where we're going to need an annual re-occurring line item in the budget. We need an independent study to see how we could generate some money for the City of Dover. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

And then and last um from me, um thank you so much. And I know, for example, we um um we we a feasibility study is that I I will tell you we need we need it bad. Um I won't go into some things that I'm doing because I don't want a conflict of interest, but uh trust me, you know, it's this is right down my my my lane. Um and then I know, you know, we have the Boys & Girls Club that's being built across from Dover High, which, you know, they're going to do things like AI and studios and and parks and and all of those things. So so um so and and the and the last thing I would I said the last, I'm a preacher, so I got three closings. Um last thing I would I would add is that um one of the things that that challenges here in Dover is location. I work with a certain population on a regular basis, and where it sits is going to be important for safety. Um so I ask once you do that, can you consider neutrality of of location, because that is uh when I work with certain individuals, you know, that that is a concern. Um yes, it can be here, but a certain population. So once that once that's um you know, I wish you much success, but I just want that as far as a thought. I yield, Council President, and thank you all for a great presentation.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Uh Councilman Lewis, you're recognized.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh thank you. Good evening. Uh if I get cut off, it's because my battery's low. I'm on my phone, but uh bear with me. Uh I concur with my colleague Councilman Sudler, excellent presentation, uh well-prepared and informative. Uh now I'm one of those financial hawks that you referred to this evening. I'm aware. And once again, you know, this matter comes to funding, and the city being able to assist. Uh as you heard earlier this evening uh during Mr. Bobby Wilson's presentation, again, it comes to funding. Uh I would urge you to put in an application, if you already haven't done so, for the Economic Development Fund, if you fit the criteria, and I would refer to Ms. Melson-Williams if you have any questions pertaining to the criteria and such. But um I would implore you to do that, even though I'm not a big fan of the Economic Development Fund. Um now the two questions that I have for you this evening, they're a little off-base, but one of them is, um will your community center have free programs for families that are having financial issues, because we have a lot of neighborhoods in the City of Dover where, you know, the families of these youth are suffering hardships?

Jamal Snead

Yes. So, we're hopeful that it's free for 17 and below. And then as well as 18 and above, therefore it will probably become an income measure. But again, in order for us to decide what is actually going to be appropriate and what is feasible, we would need that independent study to determine that. Um but again, this is more this programming is also more so geared towards youth engagement and young adults, and also under just underserved and vulnerable populations across the City of Dover.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. Uh my next question is that you have spoke with representatives from DSU. Would they be willing to assist you by offering any funding for your study?

Jamal Snead

Delaware State University has exhausted a lot of their funding on the soon-to-be stadium, uh indoor stadium, which is why they were not able to do a buyer or, you know, a build, an indoor turf build within this next year. Um so, therefore, they're somewhat limited in their ability, which is why we speak of collaboration where we necessarily build upon each other. Um he offered land. We offer a convention center and an indoor turf field for his team to maximize upon the talent that they have. So, that's where the collaboration uh aspect comes into, versus working in silos and somewhat the pointing of the finger. We can come together as a collective and we can make this a prosperous Dover as well.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. Uh thank you for answering my questions. And again, I would implore you to walk down any avenue you can. Uh I know Mr. Sudler has made some recommendations um pertaining to trying to ascertain funding. Uh again, I would implore you to look into filing the application with the Economic Development Fund if you haven't already done so, because I know there's a criteria that you have to fit. Um and I I wish you all the best and and thank you for thank you for quoting me, by the way.

Jamal Snead

You're welcome. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Any other members of the committee? Mr. Mayor?

Robin R. Christiansen

Can I cut the ribbon on it?

Jamal Snead

You're more than welcome to cut the ribbon.

Robin R. Christiansen

I won't be here. Bring him back Bring him back from retirement just for the ribbon.

Jamal Snead

Also, I want to note, I know we spoke about the Garrison Technology Park, um and how funding went towards that. $1.4 million went to that. Uh $1.6 million, actually, I read the meeting minutes for when they closed the application or, you know, um $1.6 million was not transferred over to the general fund because it was still intended to serve the purpose of economic and community development. We checked three to four blocks of the criteria for economic and community development. We looked at the resolution that was uh conducted within the last two years, I want to say. Um I have it highlighted in our report. So, you're more than welcome to check our proposal. You'll see it's highlighted in lime green the criteria that we meet for this uh proposal. Um and actually, it was stated in the minutes, excuse me, that council specifically rejected using that balance to plug the FY26 budget gap because members describe the fund as important for future economic development. I think this is more than enough for that.

Fred A. Neil

All right, thank you. Now uh I'm going to uh I'll see who's that? Let's go online. Ms. Michelle Paul. And then we'll come back into the room.

Jamal Snead

Okay. All right, thank you. And we appreciate y'all.

Fred A. Neil

Well, you hold on. See if she has might have a question for you, might just be a comment, I don't know, you know? And then you can, yes. All right, Ms. Paul, are you there? If not, we'll uh let you go ahead and... All right, all right. Okay, we'll come back to her and go into the room. Um but before I do, um I...

Michelle Paul

Can you hear me?

Fred A. Neil

Well, okay, yeah.

Michelle Paul

Okay, good evening council. I wanted to say to my young sir Pritchett, uh the Pritchett brothers, wonderful job, young men, and I look forward to hearing from you in the future. Um Jamal, I have a question for you with regards to, because I know that you're targeting the youth, um and of course I work with at-risk youth. And my question for you is, well, how many jobs will the actual um stadium actually be How many jobs would you actually be able to uh How many people would you be able to employ? And how many of those actual employment um openings will go to um some of our youth, you know, in the ages of the in between the age of 16 to 21? How How many positions will you um have available for that age group?

Jamal Snead

Well, we can't necessarily guarantee a number of positions, as more so that the study will explore what how grandiose this project could be. What I can say is between the ages of 20 16 to 21 is what we're hopeful to train youth and young adults to prepare them for the future. Therefore, whether that be, you know, plumbing, barber school, whether that is uh information technology, because I feel that's an understated uh field, especially for those with criminal records, returning citizens, what we call them in Washington, D.C. But, um I I can't necessarily give a guaranteed number. We will need security, obviously. We will need personnel. We will need custodial personnel as well. So we do see as an opportunity for those to acquire employment, but also an opportunity to develop a skill set that can, you know, retain um a level of in a sufficient level of income for the foreseeable future.

Michelle Paul

Okay, and then my final question, because I know um Councilman Dr. Sudler was uh speaking on some of the funding that's available under the need um funding. Are you able or willing to incorporate um the transition cuz you are dealing with youth, and believe it or not, we do have a lot of at-risk youth right now that um are experimenting with the opioid use. Are you willing to incorporate um something of that nature within your program um where you could be available to look at funding? Um and not only from the city level, but from the state level as well?

Jamal Snead

Yes. We more than welcome that approach. Um my time at D.C. Council, I was the senior policy director of Youth Affairs Committee, which involved Department of Youth Rehabilitation Services, which is the D.C. youth jail. Um so I have more than enough experience working with um D.C. youth and those criminally justice-involved youth as well. I once was a criminally justice-involved youth myself when I was a minor here in Dover, Delaware. Um charge it don't charge it to my heart, charge it to my mind at the time. But um you know, uh we do plan on incorporating a holistic approach to uh youth engagement, whether that be um you know, becoming the deter deterring programs of uh opioid use or just drugs in general, as well as workforce development, as well as mental health, as well as sports, as you know, whatever's needed, we ultimately and we hope to utilize community members that have this programming and organizations that already provide this programming, but don't necessarily have a hub to provide the service at. So we're hopeful to uh for the foreseeable future, could be able to um partner with these organizations and again develop that community economic hub, I mean uh excuse me, relationship amongst across the city versus everyone working in silos and a bit of self-preservation uh ultimately kicking in.

Michelle Paul

Thank you. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Uh thank thank you very much. You can uh relax for a few minutes. We're going to go in um We have some people signed up who would like to speak.

Jamal Snead

Thank you for the opportunity.

City Clerk

Looks like the first person for this one is William Holden.

William Holden. Uh

Good evening Council, or good night, we've been here for a while, right? Uh my name is William Holden. Uh I'm a longtime resident of Delaware...

Josh

I grew up with Dante and Terez, and as a youth playing outside, going to parks, one of the biggest things we always wanted to do after playing in the park was experience what hardwood floor felt like playing basketball. When you were a kid, when you got on the hardwood floor, even if you played basketball, it was a different experience and a different feeling. And I'm talking from a kid back then, I want those experiences for my children now, locally. I have a 10-year-old son. He's at home asleep. But I would love to be able to have him be able to go to these local fields instead of driving past the turnpike, driving past the Chase Center up there with Chase Fieldhouse, and there's games in those fields. So having an opportunity like that for my son to be able to go to, I would love that. And to speak from a business standpoint, I'm a videographer and photographer. A lot of the times on weekends, I will get hired to go to these events, and at these events, there's thousands of families right there. Is there an opportunity for people to start food trucks? Yes. Is there an opportunity for vendors to start cleaning these spaces? Yes. Is there an opportunity for merch or just small restaurants? Yes. So to be able to have something like this in Dover, right where Dante and Terez are proposing at that mall, which we all know is just terrible right now, right? Having those, being able to open up those small businesses, it'd be great for the city, and I'm very much in favor of it. I did write a letter of recommendation that is in that packet as well.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

City Clerk

Next is Mike Conway.

Mike Conway

Good evening. My name is Mike Conway. I'm a Delaware resident and the co-founder of Futurized Soccer Ventures, along with my neighbor, Dr. Mickens Jackson. And I appreciate the opportunity to speak in support of the youth sports center in Dover. I've spent more than 40 years working in soccer, first as a professional player and then in team operations, youth programming, sales, marketing, and facility management. I worked 28 of those seasons with the Baltimore Blast of the Major Indoor Soccer League, served as vice president and general manager of the Philadelphia Fury, and most recently served as vice president of operations for Soccer Universities, where I assisted in running a professional team and its facilities in Cesena, Italy. Earlier in my career, I helped coordinate sports programs for Baltimore City Recreation and Parks and indoor soccer events at Myers Pavilion and Du Burns Arena. Those experiences taught me what a well-run sports facility can mean to a community. I myself am a product of Baltimore City Recreation and Parks, which once had thriving centers. For young people, a sports center can be a place to learn skills, make friends, build confidence, and find mentors. For parents, it can be a dependable place where their children are active, supported, and safe. A center in Dover can serve families from the city and surrounding communities with programs for beginners as well as experienced athletes. It can give children opportunities throughout the year, including after school, on weekends, and during school breaks. I also believe that the benefits can reach beyond the athletes. Camps, leagues, and tournaments can bring visiting families into Dover. Those families may stay in local hotels, eat in local restaurants, and shop at local businesses. With thoughtful scheduling and strong community partnerships, the center could become a gathering place that people turn to season after season. I would be interested in helping turn that potential into an active program. I could help organize soccer training, camps, leagues, tournaments, drawing on my experience with staffing, scheduling, event operations, and building partnerships. Over the years, I've developed relationships across professional, college, and youth soccer. I'd be glad to reach out through those connections to help bring teams and events to Dover and start conversations with potential sponsors and partners. I wouldn't suggest that any team or sponsor is already committed, but I know how to make those introductions and build a program that people want to support. Through Futurized Soccer Ventures, our focus is on giving young players opportunities to grow, regardless of their background or club affiliation. I see the same possibility in this center: a place that welcomes families, strengthens youth development, supports local businesses, and gives Dover and the surrounding areas something to build together. I believe this is a good idea, and we will welcome the chance to help make it successful. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

City Clerk

Next up is Damar Miller.

Damar Miller

Hello Council, how y'all doing? Thanks for having me. My name is Damar Miller, also a resident of Delaware. Grew up with my constituents, Terez, Chad, Dante Daniels. Um, I do also want to get behind this project. I know as a youth, I grew up playing basketball all my life, stayed in high school and college. One thing I can attest to, as you go through levels and just get older in the sport, and having friends and just being a youth in general, you see, you know, having programs is very very essential in the in the community. I've seen I've seen Dover PAL leagues to where, you know, it was we had PAL leagues, Stormin' Norman leagues, just just various outlets for the children. And as I've gotten older and even grown to have children now, I don't see as many programs as it once was for the youth. And I believe that's a direct correlation to like the crime and like the the negative youth activity in our community. I for one know that having programs and somewhere and somewhere for the youth to go, and something for the youth to do can help with their outcome. It can be definitely a positive outcome. It will lead more to positive outcomes most most definitely. All aside from sports, I'm also a business owner here in this here in town. Something that I've owned, I own the skill on my own, as far as being a barber. It's just something I want to pass down, so I see it as another opportunity to be a mentor and also to give something to give something that I've learned and pass it down to that pass it down to the the youth in the community. So I'm behind this Get Work Foundation project, and I just hope everybody agrees and does the same thing. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

City Clerk

That's all I have on the list unless anybody else wants to speak.

David L. Anderson

All right. That's all on the list. Okay. Anybody else can come forward now.

Bonnie

Hi. My name is Bonnie. I live in Dover. I want to congratulate you young guys for trying to come to do something in this community. But I just have one question. You guys who are doing for the youth, are you guys going to do like handicap kids, too, or is it just for special kids? Are you going to have handicap-accessible areas? Because there are a lot of kids out there that people don't know that are disabled. Um, I'm just asking if you could come up and I would appreciate if somebody give me some kind of advice because there are kids out there that would love to do sports, who would love to try to do sports, they just don't have the right mentor to get them through. Not even, excuse me, no disrespect, Dover High School don't give them that kind of mentor, neither does the middle school. So basically, the parents that are learning-disability kids or have them have to do this on their own. So how would you open up your facility to do something with a disabled child?

David L. Anderson

Can, gentlemen, you're recognized. Name for the record.

Dr. Dante Daniel

Dr. Dante Daniel, Get Work Foundation, COO. Um, yes. So there's a there's a section in our proposal, actually, where we speak about persons with all abilities. Uh is the appropriate term um used, and we spoke about accessibility for persons with all abilities to have access to sports, to have and also we're trying to meet with actually a partner in Wilmington who uh autism actually she has a foundation for providing around autism, who who we're hoping to meet with within the next week or so. Uh so we're looking to partner and develop that ecosystem, and more so um increase the access accessibility for all. So again, if you look in our proposal, there is a section on persons with all abilities.

Terez

Terez. The only thing I want to add to that, we also want, once this if we are able to get the center, is to host Special Olympics. Okay? That was one of the things that we put in our proposal.

Bonnie

All right. Thank you very much.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Anyone else? Please come forward. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

Can you give your name again, please?

Rosenda Brickhouse

Good evening, Council members. I apologize. Um, I wanted to come and stand in support. My name is Rosenda Brickhouse. I am a teacher at the Early College High School here at Delaware State University. I'm a 19-year employee retired from Delaware State University itself, um, working in facilities management and now I've crossed over into education. I'm also a three-time coach. I'm also a three-time player of athletics to collegiate level Division I. And when I was approached by Mr. Terez and Mr. Daniel for this proposal, I thought, wow, it's about time. I personally have a granddaughter that travels up and down the East Coast of the United States to play in tournaments in Kentucky, Run for the Roses, in Virginia, in Pennsylvania. And we have this beautiful city of ours, Dover, Delaware, and we could be hosting these same type of tournaments and giving opportunities for our scholar athletes in this area to promote their skills. So I stand for it, I stand behind it. I offered my assistance to these two gentlemen who have done a diligent job—thank you both—a diligent job in doing their research and putting their thoughts not only into verbiage, but with stats and with data, and they're seeking the assistance to get additional data to push forward their cause.

Rosenda Brickhouse

Um, in closing, I wanted to to share a thought. Dover is at a point where we can make a smart, visible investment that strengthens the city's economy while improving workforce outcomes at the same time. Establishing a multisport complex here through the Get Work Foundation is exactly that: a destination facility that drives local spending, supports small businesses, and creates both near-term construction activity and long-term operational jobs. For the city, this is a proven economic multiplier, bringing families, athletes, and visitors, increasing demand for hospitality, retail, and services, and strengthening Dover's competitiveness as a place to live, work, and invest. For employment, it's workforce development work with real traction. The program connects youth and residents to job readiness, practical education, mentorship, and pathways that help people qualify for work and build lasting careers, so the local talent pipeline grows right here in Dover. And for the youth development, it builds discipline, confidence, leadership, and community connection. Then it intentionally bridges from athletics to workforce education. We're not just building a facility; we're building opportunity that converts into jobs and economic stability. City Council and business leaders, I offer you an opportunity to support the solution.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. All right. Anyone else? Please come forward.

Larry Harvey

Good evening. Uh, my name is Larry Harvey. I am a Dover resident. I've lived in Delaware or Dover all my life. And, uh, I just want to reiterate that, um, this is a great economic opportunity for Dover, Delaware, uh, simply because Dover is location is unique in that it's central to many places. So like Josh and Damar that stood up here, I have a 10-year-old son who, um, also plays travel soccer. Um, we also did travel football, but we often go to other states and compete, um, throughout the weekends. And what what you see is these facilities, uh, filled with different families. And when we go, we take the family. We stop at the different shops. We go out and eat. We find a new restaurant to visit. So I think this this, um, sports multisports facility will drive some of that local business here. Now, a lot of times we have visitors coming through the state, but they're generally traveling on like, let's say, Route 1, and they're going to the beach, or they're bypassing Dover. I think having a facility here will ultimately bring that traffic in Dover the same way that Bally's, or I'll say Dover Downs does, or we'll say motorsports. But I think this is a great opportunity for Dover, Delaware, and I also support the Get Work Foundation, so thank you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Anyone else? Okay. Um, I'm going to make a quick statement and there's definitely value to a feasibility study for this. Um, I don't think it's a question about that. Uh, currently we have the, um, Economic Development Fund applications are closed. I'm not sure when it's open, but it's at least the next month. Um, but there have also been other organizations that have asked for something similar, like the, uh, swim center. And I think it would be valuable if we ask the staff to explore, uh, combining this in a city-owned study that each organization can access and use fully. Uh, if we're paying for it, we should own it, in my opinion. But it should be public access and they should, they all their criteria goes in, so it's 100% useful and it's, uh, yeah, and and it's able to be utilized broadly, because we we should do this once, not twice, not three times, in my opinion, save the taxpayers' money. Anyway, uh, is there a motion to refer this to, uh, staff?

Council Member

I move to refer this to staff.

David L. Anderson

Is there, I'm sorry? Is there a second?

Council Member

There's a second, but I thought this said action not required, but...

David L. Anderson

It's not required, but then we'd do absolutely nothing about it.

Council Member

All right. I'll second it.

David L. Anderson

All right. Uh, discussion? All in favor of referring it to staff for review?

Council Members

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Aye. Any opposed? Motion carries. Did I have I'm sorry?

Council Member

Part two will second it.

David L. Anderson

Okay. Uh, the motion carries. And thank you.

David L. Anderson

Uh, let's get to the, uh, next item, which is, uh, item two, Proposed Resolution 2023-12, implementing recommendations of the independent investigation and review conducted by 21CP Solutions. And, uh, and I would, uh, like to, um, make a, uh, statement on that. I uh, uh, Chairman Boggerty, um, would, because I am an author of this resolution, I would like to, if possible, I'd like to, uh, turn this over to you to chair this one item and then be recognized.

Andre M. Boggerty

Um, I agree to chair this item.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Uh, the chair recognizes the chair recognizes Council President, the interim Council President Anderson, to for item number two, Proposed Resolution 2023-12, implementing recommendations of the independent investigation and review conducted by 21CP Solutions.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, first of all, let's, uh, say what this is not. This is not a, uh, making a judgment about any individuals. This is about what it is about is, uh, administration of city procedures, and that Council has a, uh, right under, uh, quite frankly, and a duty under Article 2, Section 14, which, uh, says which basically vests the power of administration in, you know, in the Council, as well as, uh, Section 18, as well as Section 32, and other in areas of the, uh, and even, uh, and even, uh, the shared responsibilities in in Section, uh, 53, which, uh, which talks about the, uh, which gives the mayor conservator of the peace, but also gives, uh, Council some shared shared responsibilities, uh, particularly with in in salaries and emoluments. Uh, an emolument is any benefit that comes out of, uh, that that is connected with a position. Uh, so Council is allowed to, uh, determine that as well. Uh, the recommendations, uh, are not something that we invented or, but came out of a study or, uh, a we call it a study, but a, uh, report, uh, from, uh, the 21st Century, uh, Policing. Uh, they gave, uh, some recommendations, and, uh, things that this recommendations were...

David L. Anderson

were requested. It cost us tens of thousands of dollars, and and there's been a hotly contested public quite a a public uh input on this item. It makes sense that those recommendations uh be brought forth publicly for discussion and review. Uh if if you notice um, the resolution uh we asked the staff to come up with solutions um and gives them 60 days to do so, and that allows the opportunity for all concerns and interests to be balanced. But it gives the direction, and the direction is to uh look at uh quite frankly uh Article, I believe it's Article 2 um uh no Chapter 30, Article 2, uh 3020, which it has to do with the ethics code, uh H3, and make sure that, for instance, the handbook is consistent with the law. Um we need to ensure that the whole city's uh on the same page, in a way, however, that understands that different departments, particularly a department like the police department, uh have different requirements than uh some other departments. Um and we, yeah, we have to uh look at those in the totality. However, that must begin. And the starting point, um I believe must be uh these particular recommendations, and then let's uh and then let's uh move forward. Because these recommendations are consistent with the ordinances and codes that are consistently in place. Therefore, to implement them, um we just need to resolve to do so. We do not need a new ordinance. Our ordinance is not broken. Um however, what we do have a problem with is uh maybe um the interpretations. And council is the um final interpreter, except in of a court case, the final interpreter of what its own ordinances mean. Therefore, uh I bring this uh resolution for your consideration, and I yield, Mr. Chairman.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

All right. Yes. I would like to make a motion that the full report of 21CP investigation be released to the public for full transparency.

Andre M. Boggerty

There's been a motion, um there's still discussion, but there's a motion being made. Does anyone anybody want to second it, and then we enter discussion? Can Can you

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'll second it.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. It's been properly moved and seconded. Now is there any discussion?

Robin R. Christiansen

I have discussion.

Andre M. Boggerty

Discussion, the chair recognizes uh the Mayor.

David L. Anderson

Um Well, may I Mr. Mayor?

Robin R. Christiansen

I think what I have to say is kind of pertinent to this, but go the hell ahead.

David L. Anderson

Okay. If you may, thank you. Um, I would say that um, we have uh extensive uh writing by our solicitor, which says that it would be illegal for us to um release this uh report, particularly unredacted, because it would that would be a violation of Law Enforcement Officers' Bill of Rights, and uh that and so, I would urge uh members uh not to go along with that, but to uh follow the advice of our counsel, and I yield to your his honor. Thank you.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, uh, Councilman Acting Council President Anderson. You know, last night, we had some accusations made on this floor that uh, the chief and myself had violated some ethical codes. It has been investigated numerous times by the Department of Justice, internally, and through this uh, investigation that the city paid $70,000 for. I need to remind council that the terms and the conditions of Chief Johnson's employment were approved by this council after a committee, made up of city staff and members of council, recommended his hiring, and it was brought to the council floor. Let me reiterate to you that uh, I don't take my job as willy-nilly. I have asked and received on a weekly basis, an accountability of the chief's activities, and emails, rather detailed, of his work product. I believe that this resolution is premature. I concur with Councilman Lewis that the public has a right to know. Uh I have no shield from what was in that report, and I insist that before this resolution is acted on by council, we have an obligation to the public and to the people who are investigated in that report to release it, and I will settle for nothing less. I believe in transparency. If I have done wrong, hold my feet to the fire. If I haven't, then don't hold my feet to the fire. In a resolution that's brought to this floor without transparency to the public, and questioning, at the end of the day, don't question the chief. He reports to me, so I take responsibility of what was in the terms of his hiring, and how he has performed his duties and jobs. But I insist, along with Councilman Lewis, that the city pay for this report, transparency must prevail, and I have nothing to hide. I have acted within the confines of that of the hiring agreement that the committee made, and we brought to a recommendation to a previous council. We have an obligation to maintain those standards for the current chief. You want to change them after he walks away, do it. But at the end of the day, it's imperative that if this report and DOJ investigations, and council's are well aware that we discuss this in executive session probably two or three times, two years ago, and no action was taken then, it is imperative for transparency that this report be given to the people that paid for it. I rest my case.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Any other members of the committee, uh, The chair recognizes Councilman Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for recognizing me. I want to say thank you to the Mayor uh, for reiterating uh, transparency. Uh, my only concern is, uh, being that you have, in my view, implied that you are giving authorization or you are in agreement with releasing the full report, my only concern is is that also the sentiment of Chief uh, uh, Thomas? Thomas Johnson, right. Is that his sentiment? Because I want to make sure that if that is done, that the constituents will not be in harm's way of a potential lawsuit uh, for releasing it, so that's my only concern. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um is that a question you're posing to Chief Johnson? Yeah.

David L. Anderson

Point of order. Yes. Uh, point of order. Uh the chief is represented by counsel, and therefore, we are not allowed to question him on on this without his counsel present, and his counsel has given objection to that.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yep. All right, thank you for The chair re-recognizes uh, the Mayor.

Robin R. Christiansen

I think it would be very prudent, and I've been known to be wrong, that this resolution be tabled for further consideration, and that this council uh, act in the manner to which it should be done, which will not be costly to the city. But I insist on the release of the report on my end.

David L. Anderson

Uh on to clear, waiving on your end, which uh is that correct? For the record.

Robin R. Christiansen

On advice of my attorney, because I have nothing to hide, Mr. Chairman.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes, thank you. The chair I see you. The chair recognizes Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. I I don't have any concerns or issues with release of the report, but I do recall having that conversation with the solicitor that we could not release the report, so I am not going to vote on a motion on the floor without revisiting that discussion with the solicitor. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Any other members of the committee before we go into public comment? The chair The The The chair recognizes uh, um, uh, Ms. Smack for public comment.

Vondaleer Smack

Good evening, Mayor and Council. My name is Vondaleer Smack. Everybody knows me as Smack Said It. Uh, where's the full 21CP Solutions investigation report that taxpayers paid for? We paid for an independent investigation, now we're being handed roughly 1 and 3/4 pages of proposed resolutions and expected to guess what investigators found. Dover deserves better. Spotlight Delaware reported on May 29th that the investigation's contract was for $50,000. It also reported that the city denied its request for the report, citing personnel and pending investigation exemptions. $50,000 is serious public money. Tell us the final amount paid and show us what the money purchased. Um, when this review was announced, WMDT reported that the city expected the findings to be reported publicly upon completion. Heard several several council people say that, well, we still haven't gotten the report. The Mayor spoke about integrity and transparency from the jump. Thank you, Mayor. I'm asking you to honor that commitment. Even 21CP's own website says it delivered factual findings along with recommendations for Dover. So where are those findings? Proposed Resolution 2026-12 calls for restrictions on political meetings with on-duty officers, written vehicle rules, secondary employment, safeguards, variable timekeeping for command staff, and written employment arrangements. These recommendations raise serious questions. What facts led to each recommendation? Which al- allegations were sus- substantiated, which were not, and which remained unresolved? What did investigators conclude about the Mayor, the Chief, or whatever other situations were going on, including interactions involving council members? Recommendations alone do not answer those questions. New policies tell us what you intend to change. The investigator findings tell us why changes are needed and whether accountability is warranted. We should not have to read between lines to understand an investigation we funded. I am requesting release of the full report, including its findings, conclusions, and supporting material to the fullest extent permitted. If specific information must legally be withheld, redact that information and explain the legal basis for each withholding. Give us a firm release date, publish the contract, invoices, total amount paid, let residents ask questions in a public meeting, and make the resolution's 60-day progress report public. We deserve to see whether these promises become actual practice. Mayor and Council, public trust requires public answers. Taxpayers deserve more than a relate- than a resolution asking us to trust that everything has been handled. Release the report, explain the findings, show us the accountability we paid for answers, and stop asking us to settle for questions. Transparency is the key word, and it's Smack Said It.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Is there anyone else on on who's on public in the audience? Um, the chair recognizes uh Shelton Paul, who is online. Give her a chance to unmute.

Robin R. Christiansen

I wish you'd take my receipt.

Shelton Paul

Can you hear me? Yes. Hi,

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you.

Shelton Paul

Okay. With regards to, I am I am totally in agreement with Mayor Christiansen. Um, the fact that um, Chief Johnson has an attorney, I also am understanding um, where there is if he has not given permission, where there could be um, legalities with regards to using for the report in itself. So if there is something that needs to be redacted in that report, then um, redact the information that needs to be redacted, so that it is not um, there is no release of any personal information or anything um, that should not be released with regards to the findings. But, taxpayers did pay $50,000-plus um, for those findings, and you can't when you're given a resolution, there needs to be have to be able to know exactly what the findings were to make sure that the resolution actually makes sense to accommodate whatever wrongdoing there was, or whatever issues that were found during the investigation. So because it was done in for full transparency for the public, the public deserves to see exactly what transpired and what did not, um, and know what that what those resolutions are for and what you are actually voting on. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Are there any other public comments online? Okay. Um can you Uh there's there's a motion on the floor, but I know that hours late, so we probably need it need it repeated. Uh uh Councilman Sudler has a question? Thank you.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you for recognizing me. Um, in regards to the the motion, and and I understand and I have the same sentiment concern. Is there anyway we can get our city solicitor uh, at you know, on the on the line or I mean, is there any way to have legal advice before we take this? I was hoping that he would be here tonight on something as crucial and essential as this. But nevertheless, we're here now. Um, is there anyway that we can send some type of communication to let him know that what is transpiring now, and how he would advise us? He's already aware of the situation and the entire dynamics, and so, you know, in the fairness of other councilpersons feeling comfortable with making a decision, um, or not a decision, I think we need to have the legal advice of our city solicitor, that's what we pay him for. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Well, if we were to do thank you. If we were to do that, we would have to have a brief caucus for someone to call, um, but the chair recognizes

Robin R. Christiansen

It's 11:00 at night. Would you answer your phone at 11:15 at night? Hell, man, he's asleep.

David L. Anderson

Not if it's from us.

Andre M. Boggerty

Councilman The chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, um, Mr. Chairman. We already have the solicitor's uh, written viewpoint on the quite frankly on the uh Maggie Reynolds appeal of the uh FOIA, if we want to uh take a uh small break, and uh and review that. And I have, pretty extensive uh, discussion with him myself, uh, but but we can't we we can't um the the the FOIA request we can uh read out, the the the other opinion I I can't because then that would uh violate the attorney-client privilege, and we can't do that. Um, you have to do we would have to have an executive session for that. Mr. Chairman, Um, but we can read the um we can get a hold of the uh the FOIA appeal

David L. Anderson

You can if you want to do that.

Andre M. Boggerty

Mr. Chair, the nexus of the FOIA appeal was to release in the report.

David L. Anderson

It is. It's 100% about the report being why it can't be released to public.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. The chair recognizes the mayor.

Robin R. Christiansen

I would just caution council to walk softly on this one. I think you need to table this. You need to get more information, and I sure as hell wouldn't call the attorney at 11:15 at night, because he's where we all should be, home in our bunks.

Robin R. Christiansen

But I think it's important that there be transparency. I have no issue with it. Whether other folks have an issue with it or not, that's for them to choose the right direction that they have to do.

Robin R. Christiansen

But I think it's important that the terms of the chief's hiring, terms of his accountability have been dropped in my lap, and I take responsibility for that. So any questions of ethics on his part or any concern about his ethics, he has acted ethically.

Robin R. Christiansen

But I would caution council, and let me say this again, I've been here a long time. Tread lightly. Transparency is what's owed to the public.

Andre M. Boggerty

The chair recognizes Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Let me get a peanut butter or a mint to cool it down.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Um, thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, so I think we should at least just just Gerald Rocha's statement, release the report to the public, but, and I'm siding with Councilwoman Arndt because, you know, our memory is not going two years back, right, when it comes to what the solicitor said. Um, and what was the reasons, if you can remember, the solicitor, was it because of personnel?

David L. Anderson

Yeah, yeah. Each of It's a violation. Yes, personnel issues number one. Number two, the the state has a very strict law enforcement officers' bill of rights. And number three, this is an area that is quite frankly we've been asked by counsel not to as well. And so therefore no rights have been waived. So there's other reasoning as well, but that we can't get out in in public. But quite frankly, can we get the the FOIA appeal of

David L. Anderson

that clerk? That that that has the reasoning, and it's public.

City Clerk

Maggie Reynolds.

David L. Anderson

Maggie Reynolds.

City Clerk

Did you receive the appeal?

David L. Anderson

Has he Has he get Is it writt- Is it written Has he done his written Oh, he hasn't done the official written one yet.

City Clerk

Maggie's here because written response with the mayor and the chief's attorneys first.

David L. Anderson

Okay, so so we haven't put it so it's not out in the public yet. So, okay, we can't we can't disclose that in public yet. So if you if you want to know more, then you got to go into executive session. I Th- this motion can't be wouldn't take effect anyway until it comes to council. Um, so there's we can easily just dispense with this motion now, and and if it's valid in two weeks we can deal with it in the way anyway. It has nothing to do with the resolution, which is an administration

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

issue. So, what what you're saying is

David L. Anderson

Permission to dialogue?

Andre M. Boggerty

Permission to dialogue, and then right afterwards, the chair will recognize Councilman Lewis first.

David L. Anderson

Yes.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I yield right now to Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

You You can very easily shoot this motion down, but I want it on record that I am for the full investigation of 21CP to be released to the public for transparency. They paid, I believe, $50-plus thousand for this report, and I believe the citizens have a right to know. And tonight, I respect you, Mayor Christiansen. I fully respect you for agreeing with me that this report should be released.

Andre M. Boggerty

Does that conclude your your

Brian E. Lewis

I can I stand. Yes, sir.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah, I I agree with Councilman Lewis and the mayor. However, we need we need another opinion from our solicitor.

David L. Anderson

Well, we He gave it to us in executive session, and if you want it in writing, he can give it in writing.

Andre M. Boggerty

Wait. Excuse me, Anderson. That Rocha still has the floor.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Well, you gave permission to dialogue.

Andre M. Boggerty

Oh, permission to dialogue. My bad. Go ahead, Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I don't know if this resolution is going to satisfy as a as a substitute. There's not enough meat in the in the resolution for me, so I'm not in favor of moving this forward. Um, and then I think we should go back with the solicitor or have the solicitor send us an email outlining those specifics that you had said why we should not release it, or can it be redacted in some type of way, you know, those kind of things, is what what I would want to be looking for. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

The chair recognizes Councilman Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. Just just for clarity, I think the motion on the floor was to release the entire report, which is, am I understanding, separate from um the item, the resolution. So, just for clarity, uh Chair, are we are we voting on the resolution, which was what? To to release the recommendations, or are we voting on, from what I heard, this this is not the resolution, this is the actual report, separate. I just uh If we could just get clarity. Um, I'm not too sure what I heard, so it's been long. It's 11:00 something at night, right? So, my bad. So, if you can if you can um bring us some clarity

City Clerk

Do you want me to read the motion?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Because the motion is on the floor as a motion as I think is to release the entire report,

Andre M. Boggerty

Right.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

not the resolution.

City Clerk

No.

Andre M. Boggerty

Right.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Which means that item is still standing on

Andre M. Boggerty

Councilman Lewis's motion.

City Clerk

Yes.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Right.

Andre M. Boggerty

Yeah, can you confirm that?

City Clerk

Yes. The motion from Mr. Lewis was to release the full report of the 21CP findings for public transparency. Mr. Sirvaks seconded.

Andre M. Boggerty

Garfinkel.

City Clerk

Oh, was it Garfinkel?

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. There any other comments during discussion? The chair recognizes Smith.

Chavondo Smith

Yes, I just have questions. So, you're saying the city, I need just for clarity Okay, I just need for clarity so I can do what I need to do next. You said that the city solicitor said because of the Law Enforcement Officers' Bill of Rights, we, the people who paid 50k taxpayer's money for this investigation, it can't be released. Is that what you're saying?

Andre M. Boggerty

It's one of the reasons.

David L. Anderson

That's the reason.

Chavondo Smith

That's for um the interim president, chair, Mr. Anderson, because that's who's um Councilman Anderson. That's who stated that. I just need to know why the solicitor, you said out your mouth, why it could not be released to the public. You said something about the Law Enforcement Officers' Bill of Rights.

Andre M. Boggerty

That's one of the reasons.

City Clerk

That's for Councilman Anderson.

Chavondo Smith

Oh, okay.

Andre M. Boggerty

Councilman The chair recognizes Councilman Anderson for discussion or rebuttal.

David L. Anderson

Uh, thank you very much, uh. And that's one of the reasons. Uh, the other had to do with uh let's go back to what this is. Um, this normally we don't pay for these investigations that are triggered by internal affairs. Uh, this is is really an internal affairs investigation, not a public investigation. However, what happened is we uh could not find any outside law enforcement organizations willing to do the investigation. Therefore, we had to pay for um a firm to do it, which has happened before, um but it's rare. We And there that's the only reason we paid for it. But this investigation was quite frankly triggered by the FOP and internal affairs, therefore, that's not releasable. Um, the it has to do with personnel issues, which are not releasable. Uh, and it has to do with the the latter. Now, I have uh requested, can the one part be released and the and the and the part other part be redacted? And that's something that that I expect an answer from from our our solicitor on. Um, but that that is still being uh that that still has to come back yet. And uh so this motion is, in my view, premature until we get uh that part. And and I have a belief, uh my belief is that the um the part that regarding the elected official is uh not protected. But I want to see that in I want to see that from our solicitor, and uh even though I think I know how that's going to come out, um we this is a little bit premature right now. And, of course, the mayor's release um will um will basically make that moot, uh so.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Permission to dialogue?

Andre M. Boggerty

Yes, permission to dialogue.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

So, what's the purpose of the resolution then based on what you just said?

David L. Anderson

The the the resolution is to enact the uh the recommendations. It's about policy. It's quite frankly, there were recommendations, and if they're not acted upon, then um they then that's it, you know, then then everything goes status quo, and if status quo, in my view, is unacceptable. And so therefore the the recommendations are being brought forward. Uh, we've all read the report. We all we all understand stand it, and it's uh the question is do we believe the recommendations are valid or are they not valid? That's the that's the simple question there.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, the chair Councilman Rocha, you done?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

The chair recognizes Chanel Hall, and then Dr. Sudler.

Andre M. Boggerty

Well, while they're getting that together, Dr. Sudler, I'll recognize you while they're working on something first.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thanks for recognizing me. Um, for the record, um, I I too appreciate the mayor's willingness to be uh transparent, and I think that as we are servants of the public, that is imperative that, regardless whether uh there's a bill of a bill of rights, I think transparency and to who you serve, and constituents, being a public official, a public or appointed public official, um, you're open to public scrutiny. I've had to go through public scrutiny. Other individuals have had Other council persons have had to go through public scrutiny, whether it's in their personal life or in their professional life. I think as a public servant, when it comes to the people's especially when it comes to the people's money, that that there is no shield. Um, that's just part of the job. You know, being a public servant is not easy. You're always underneath a microscope. No one has walked on this Earth in my view other than Jesus Christ who is perfect. We all make mistakes. I made mistakes, but I think that the bottom line is for us to heal and move forward, accountability and recognizing that you made that mistake, and moving forward helps the entire city, the constituents, and the cohesiveness of council to move forward, because no one's perfect. I don't hold no grudges against anyone regardless of that report. I I, you know, whatever it is, I let the Lord deal with it. I'm not the judge and the jury. But I do believe as a public servant, you have a fiduciary duty of care to be as totally transparent as you can be. And I think that if I wasn't the chief, I would just be I would just give permission for it to be released. After all, after my superior, um, the mayor, and the mayor, you know, I I I concur and I appreciate and value your leadership on this matter and in other matters as well. And uh, you know, it takes a lot for someone to say, you know, it is what it is, I'm open to public scrutiny, and it says a lot about you. And I too, as Councilman Lewis has stated earlier, um, respect that and respect you for that and and, you know, do not be

Roy Sudler, Jr.

are covered when it comes to any legal ramifications from making a decision tonight. I'd rather make sure that they are covered, um, because I think it would be selfish of me if I voted on this tonight. And I do want to vote on it tonight to get it over with, because it's been lingering over head for a long time. Um, think for council, especially one that's been, you know, named, but like I said, I've already turned it over to the Lord, so I'm good with it. But the bottom line is, I think for our constituents' sake and for the city's sake, I concur with Councilwoman Arndt. And I think that, I think that it would be in the best interest of the city and our constituents to just get the legal advice, opinion first, and and defer or or, you know, come back and revisit it. But I would ask that we would come back and revisit it within have a special meeting then. We would have a special meeting which you can call within seven days, post it, and have a special meeting so that we can put this to rest, because the constituents and all parties, we need to put this to rest. All right.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, Council. I guess the question is to Council Lewis. Um, the chair recognizes you in response to Councilman Sudler.

Brian E. Lewis

Quite frankly, this has been festering too long. Uh, there's been articles in the newspapers, uh, letters in the newspapers from constituents. Um, I I think we need to make a decision. And like I said, you could very easily shoot me down, but I'm a clean-hands person, and I believe that the report should be released to the public. They paid for it. They paid $50-plus-thousand for this report. Taxpayer dollars. I The mayor even agrees with me. The mayor even agreed with me. That the report should be released for full transparency. So I call the question.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. There's um The The call the question has been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? And the question, again, is to release the full report at this time. All those in favor signify by saying aye.

Brian E. Lewis

Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

All those opposed signify by saying no.

David L. Anderson

No.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'm going to say no due to the fact that we need to get legal advice to shield the constituents from harm's way.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. So based on that, and so so since the

David L. Anderson

Mr. Chairman, point of order, call for a roll call.

Andre M. Boggerty

I I am. That's was exactly what I was going to do. Thank you, sir. Uh, we're going to do a roll call vo- vote. Um, I'll just start, I'll see: Councilman Anderson?

David L. Anderson

No.

City Clerk

You want me to do it?

Andre M. Boggerty

I was going to say, uh oh yeah, sure. Take her job, you know? It's 8 cents, 11 cents more.

City Clerk

Miss Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

No, on the advice of the solicitor.

City Clerk

Mr. Rocha?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Although I want to wait on the solicitor, I'm going to say yes, just because I believe in the transparency.

City Clerk

Dr. Sudler?

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I want to say yes, but I'm I I have to say no because it's bigger than me. I have to I have to make sure my constituents are shielded, so I have to say no.

City Clerk

Mr. Lewis?

Brian E. Lewis

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Shevock?

William Shevock

No.

City Clerk

Mr. Garfinkel?

Michael Garfinkel

I'm going to have to vote no... due to the outstanding legal questions that have come up. Not to beat a dead horse, but I'm voting no right now.

City Clerk

Mr. Boggerty?

Andre M. Boggerty

Um, I know only due to legalities, and uh, and I want to know um, exactly what Chief Johnson Chief Chief is represented by an attorney, so I don't want to I want to make sure that we have legal opinions. It's just that could come up in the future in the future. We've got to save taxpayer money. 150,000, we can't afford that.

City Clerk

Motion fails, 6 no, 2 yes.

Andre M. Boggerty

The chair recognizes uh, Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

I make a motion to table Resolution 2026-12.

Andre M. Boggerty

Motion second?

Brian E. Lewis

Second.

Andre M. Boggerty

Properly moved and seconded. Um, I'll move for this. Are you ready for the question?

Brian E. Lewis

Call the question.

Andre M. Boggerty

Call the question. Thank you. All right. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye.

Brian E. Lewis

Aye. Aye.

Andre M. Boggerty

Like to set... the motion carries. And so so it'll be tabled. That... That's it. Now I'll turn this back over to you.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. You said be up at 9:45.

Robin R. Christiansen

Uh, thank you very much, uh, Chairman. Now for the easy ones. The good news where people give us money. Uh, that brings us to item three, Community Riverwalk Assessment Grant, Mr. Jason Lyon, Assistant City Manager.

Jason Lyon

Councilman Hare. I will I will defer to any questions at this point. I'm sure you all read the packet. It's one page here. I'd be happy to answer any questions.

Robin R. Christiansen

All right. Rec- Recognize Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

In the spirit of my of my late colleague, Councilman Hare, um, I move for staff recommendation to authorize the city manager to enter into an agreement with the Downtown Development Partnership for allocation of the of the Chesapeake Grant funding.

Robin R. Christiansen

Motion seconded? Sounded like Mr. Shevock seconded it, or Councilman Rocha? Actually I heard it over there first, but it doesn't matter. I'll let I'll let them figure it out in the minutes. All right, is there um, is there is there a discussion? Uh, Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Yes. Mr. Mr. Lyon, um, is there anyone currently cleaning up the area through federal assistance like the EPA or DNREC?

Jason Lyon

Uh, we are not uh, permitted to receive EPA funding for the clean of the site since we were the ones that caused the contamination.

Brian E. Lewis

The city caused the contamination?

Jason Lyon

Correct. We were the owners of that.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. Um, isn't the caveat though with this proposal that the city once again will be giving away land to Downtown Partnership if they give us grant money?

Jason Lyon

No. Th- this this specific proposal is for two items. Uh, Dover Downtown Partnership received a multipurpose grant, and within the within the grant confines, they're allowed to perform the the two items that are shown on this one page. Uh, one is a a building assessment and abatement, and the other is a conceptual plan for long-term for long-term use. But we are not giving any land away to Downtown Dover Partnership with this proposal.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay, I just wanted to make sure on that. That's all I have. Thank you.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you. Any other discussion? All in favor? Any opposed? Motion adopted. And is there any other business for the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee? Uh, there is none. It stands adjourned. Is there any other business for the Council Committee of the Whole? Seeing none, adjourned.