Transcript: Alderman's Court Ad Hoc Meeting

David L. Anderson

Okay. Uh, so let's uh, we are, we got notification from our, that our, uh, early this, this morning that our, we will not have a guest because uh, that, something's came up, which is fine, but that allows us to um, so we to uh, talk about our goals and community engagement. So let's uh, so because of that, I would ask

Unknown Speaker

for the adoption of the this, a motion to adopt the agenda minus um, item three. So moved. Second.

David L. Anderson

The moved and seconded to adopt the agenda deleting guest presentation. All right. All those in favor? Aye.

Unknown Speaker

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed? Motion is uh, adopted. Uh we got too much of that uh winter cold stuff going around right now, but thank you all for attending. The, the meeting is now call, the meeting's been called to order. Uh do we have the uh, the minutes from the last meeting on that clerk that we can put on screen? What we'll do is we'll we'll get to uh, without objection, while these are being printed, we'll come back to the approval of the minutes. That that way you can actually see the minutes that you're approving.

Unknown Speaker

All right. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

And then um we'll go to recap of the last meeting and questions. Um and I think everyone pretty well remembers the last meeting, we had uh extensive discussions with the uh Clerk of the Court in Newark. And we talked about uh different directions and started with the ideas for what we would like to see if we go that way. And there were some questions that we also want to talk with some other jurisdictions as well. which will be happening, but because uh we want to get a a better idea of how things work to make sure it's uh not only if, but how if we can, if we get, you know. So that was the idea behind things. Um we had um there were some questions that were raised, and I had those sent out to the members of the committee, the answers from the Newark uh court. Did anyone have any questions based upon that?

Unknown Speaker

Okay.

David L. Anderson

So that is um so so that is the uh essentially the the recap. Um does anyone else have anything that they wanted to add? Good. Now we will in a moment have the minutes, and then we'll go ahead and take the minutes. And what we'll be talking about next while so you can start thinking about that, because we do have limited time today. Uh because uh, thank you all for coming during the work day. It's appreciated. We just don't have staff support for evening meetings. Uh we we may have one later on where we actually have a product to bring the public in and get public comments for it. Like for that meeting, but that will probably be the only evening meeting we have when we need that public comment. Uh but, but uh, and But anyway, and we have we have the great staff, uh uh, all of them. And we appreciate all of them. And so what we'll be talking about is uh today, we have a white board even, uh with our goals, and what what goals we that that we would believe that an Alderman's Court should achieve. Okay? Because once we set the goals, then we can build a structure that achieves those goals. Trying to uh uh decide on a structure without knowing the goals is completely backwards. But first we had to understand how it worked, how it functioned, that was step one. Step two would be, if we do this, how what goals would we like to see and how should it function in Dover? And then uh, step three we'll we then we can get more information about how that can be achieved. So, uh why let's uh pause for a moment, and uh allow you to uh look at the minutes. Because one of the things we want with our goals is we wanted to be uh diverse and collaborative goals that reflect a broad consensus of the community. Uh not just one section of the community or another. Uh that way, if we go this way, it will have real community buy-in, which I think if you're going to achieve a charter change, a charter, you know, a charter change isn't just another ordinance. I I think a charter change should um you know, should reflect uh certainly the majority, but hopefully um a reasonable consensus of the community, though not everybody's going to agree on everything, and you're never going to get unanimity, but uh yeah, I think uh a sound majority is a good thing.

David L. Anderson

Uh let's uh let's test to make sure Councilman Lewis is on. Could you uh put the minutes up for him, please, so he can see them? I want to make sure he sees the minutes. Thank you. Now, without him, we don't have a quorum. Uh, we need uh to be apprised of everything.

David L. Anderson

Just for informational purposes, uh the the process, once this committee comes up with a uh a recommendation, uh that recommendation, this is basically a a subcommittee of Legislative, Finance, and Administration. So, it will report back to to Legislative, Finance, and Administration, which will then make whatever the final decision is, and whatever the structure, and then that will go to the council, which then makes is uh their decision, and then it will go to the legislature, which will make its decision. So, uh that that just gives you the process, so you know um you know, what the line that it that it goes to. So, obviously, what work done by this committee is probably the most important, because everything else will be based upon it. So, thank you for your time. It's time well spent. Let's see here. Yeah. We'll keep on reading. Once you're once you're ready, uh we'll take we'll take a motion to approve, and then we'll uh we'll have any discussion upon that.

Unknown Speaker

Can we move for an amendment or a vote of approval? Move on to the next. Okay, is there Now is there a motion to approve the uh minutes? Move to approve.

David L. Anderson

Is there a second? Second. All right, any discussion? Pretty calm. All right, all all in favor? Aye.

Unknown Speaker

Aye. Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed? Great. And thank you all. And um Rep and um Representative Harris, uh thank you for joining, and uh by the way, congratulations.

Harris

Thank you so much. Sorry, I had another meeting run over, but happy I can join today.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. We're we're very happy, because we're all because you made give us a little bit of cushion. We we're one over quorum, and so a lot of people are under the weather today. Yeah. Cold stuff going around.

Unknown Speaker

And some COVID, too. Yeah.

David L. Anderson

So, now next um we and next, I am going to walk over to the board, because uh next we are going to deal with goals. And we'll take it from members of the committee, and members of the public who are here, who may want to comment after members of the committee do. The We Last time, the members of the public was Mr. Faust, this time members of the public is Mr. Anderson, so Oh, you know, anybody else will show up. And, but we also have uh with us uh Mrs. Marty. Welcome. Hi.

Marty

Thank you for having me.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. So, first step Uh, whoever wants to go first, what do you think the um the first goal of um that we should be looking for to achieve? Dr. Hoffer?

Hoffer

I Yeah, I would just say quality of life improvement for both residents and offenders. And so I'd be asking myself do it through this process is this a mechanism to achieve that.

David L. Anderson

Okay. For all. Okay. All right. Who who's next?

Unknown Speaker

My My um This may sound I mean um these two gentlemen had a lot of um dialogue, and I really uh appreciate them bringing their uh expertise to the table, but um you know, as far as the different courts, how are we deciding you know, uh what is alderman's, what is state law, uh how will the law enforcement uh officers know to do the right thing? It's got to be some uh clarity, and then also another goal would be, is there something I mean, we're talking about it now, do we have the support um on the state legislative side to be able to pass this charter change, as well as, you know, support so that you're able to do this. I know it's long, but that's

Unknown Speaker

As a follow-up to Derrick's suggestions, I mean obviously we need to establish what is our jurisdiction. Yeah. Yeah. And you don't have to write this down, but there's two types of jurisdiction you have to consider. One is exclusive jurisdiction, and one is joint jurisdiction with other courts. And you can think about that. Obviously, a Newark, a lawyer, had the alderman's system works in Newark,

Unknown Speaker

and I think Rehoboth,

David L. Anderson

Rehoboth.

Unknown Speaker

to some extent. Mhm. They have jurisdiction over breaches or violations of municipal ordinances, obviously, and that probably should be exclusive jurisdiction. Mhm. Uh and we could see and they also have some jurisdictional responsibilities with respect to uh driving cases. Yeah. You'd share you'd have to share that with like Court of Common Pleas and Superior Court, and that would be a joint joint jurisdiction. And that would be typical for an alderman's court, so we can do that. Okay. So, that Just establish that. And the next thing you have to establish is, what's going to be the cost? You have to work out a budget, propose a budget for the court. Mhm. Because that certainly is going to be a big factor with the Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

Well, council, I'm sure. Sure. And the and our and our Yeah. committee, the uh

David L. Anderson

finance committee, right? I think

Unknown Speaker

And then the estimated cost of what would be, you know, the annual revenue.

Unknown Speaker

The annual revenue that the court could generate to cover that cost.

Hoffer

I think I think Fred uh Councilman Neil said, you know, hey, that are the the goal should be that it's self-sustainable and and that um that there's some uh uh uh neutrality spending for that, you know, the funds could be potentially used for you know, what would the excess funding be used for if there was a surplus? Mhm.

Unknown Speaker

Yes, as we talk about the uh financial aspect of this, I was just I just want to make sure that um I know we want to make sure it's self-funded and things like that, but I want to make sure that we're not looking for those fines and everything else in order to keep it afloat, because we don't want that to um affect any decisions that are made. Meaning, if we don't need a certain amount of money then, you know, these amount of people are guilty and give them their fines. So, if there's a way for us to make sure that we're not doing this as a business, right, we're trying to do this as something to help the community. Yeah. Community-oriented. You had a hand raised over here, uh, one of our one of our assistants. It wasn't. It was. It was Julia. It was Julia, yeah. Is it you, Lois? Councilman. Councilman Lewis, did you have something to say? He's muted. Yeah, I had my hand up. Yeah, you did. We just couldn't hear you. I think Judge Whittington had already mentioned it. Uh, I think one of the most important things uh, is financial backing for this court. Yeah. Um, and that's one of the reasons I invited our finance director to this meeting today, uh, Ms. Marty. I'm just observing today. Thank you. Just to get make sure that you get a copy of the minutes. There was extensive discussion Yeah. last time. She'll email She'll email them. Oh, okay. Okay. She'll email them. Are they posted online, really? They are. I think, yeah. Good. Thank you. It is uh, and now they'll be moved from uh draft to official. Yeah. All right, so that that was already mentioned. All right, it's got a star on that one. So, now what's the uh, are there any other I basically have a question. All right. Yes. Um, this will not include uh, like this Alderman's Court is only for like uh, I'm trying to figure out like what type of uh, charge uh, tickets will be given out in the Alderman's Court. I really wanted to make sure it had nothing to do with people's property. Okay. And would just deal with like uh, not removing your snow, um like the municipal what what code enforcement stuff, Code enforcement. Mhm. or is this all like um bordering the traffic tickets, things of that nature? And that is the question for this committee to answer. Okay, great. And that's the Uh, you know, I I don't want to prejudge the answer, but but from what I've been hearing, we're probably not going to go there. We're going to get consensus. Okay. Because um you know, that can change, and you all change your mind in two months, we give it that's fine, but as of right now, it it would not, because for one, we have we now have the existing appeals panels for not just the construction maintenance, but the other portions, as well, which we didn't have 2 years ago. Mhm. So, now we have the construction board, made with the others we didn't really have, and that probably would have fallen under here, but now that we have the appeals panel, there's no reason To mess that up. Exactly. Yeah. That's Because it seems to be working. Good. So, with people and it doesn't cost them anything. They don't have to have attorneys or anything of that nature. It seems to be working well for everybody. Well, frankly, you you can cover that issue another way. You can, you know, if if you want Alderman's Court is certainly to be a criminal court, as most of them are, rather than a civil court, then that issue would not be a problem. It's a civil you know. Yeah. The appeals the right uh, of the building code infractions or whether you know the building is compliant with regulations. That's that's a separate That would go the way it's always went. The way it's always went. because court would not have jurisdiction over that. Okay, good. Yeah. And I I would suspect that's the way we're going to go. I've seen you smile, right? That's what I'm hearing. Like I said, it's not It's chairman, I can't It's not my job to prejudge the outcome. I think most of them successful other courts are criminal courts. Okay. We have sort of an We have kind of an expert here, so. No. So, he'd should take that for what it's worth. Um now what I also want to call and uh not only mine, but but a council president, so uh since he's not here, I want to include his his goal, and that is to include referrals to drug court Mhm. so that we can actually get people help and not just load people with fines. Uh and um you can't we're not to be the drug court, we already have one, and it works, and work, right. Time to get help. I guess. And frankly frankly, that that'd be that'd be a great benefit to state-wide, not just for Dover, because the problem is with our specialty courts in the actually constitutional court system is the fact that we don't get the people who are suffering mental health issues, or or substance abuse issues until they've already have committed a crime. And even after they commit a crime, they they just stay so

Unknown Speaker

are out of control. We get them at the end.

Unknown Speaker

If the alderman's court would be the first line of defense for that type of thing, to get the person into into this court system quickly.

David L. Anderson

And and I added specialty courts there, like veterans court. There's other ones as well which we and I think we should be able to access all of them because they exist for the very reason of early intervention.

Unknown Speaker

There are even the VOPs. Yeah. The VOPs, yeah.

Unknown Speaker

So, it goes back to improvement for all. I think that with having the specialty courts and being able to improve even the offenders, I think we should have a goal of you know, sentencing some sentencing type guidelines where you know, not a penalization if you from a financial stand point for people that are, you know, in poverty so that there's an alternative mechanism such as Community service.

David L. Anderson

Community service.

Unknown Speaker

community service, which, essentially, you know, have a trash problem here, to you know, to assist.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, and some painting.

David L. Anderson

Around here. Yeah. Littering, lots of community service, you know.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

I like it.

Unknown Speaker

Especially the trash part.

David L. Anderson

Hear that. Yeah, I like that part.

Unknown Speaker

I mean I like it.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. Contractors just dumped garbage right in front of that one house on Governors Avenue again, paint, the con- all the contractors stuff right in the garbage.

Unknown Speaker

Can't understand where the trash comes from.

Unknown Speaker

All right. It was a contractor this time. Yeah, you could see all the I just drove by there. It was horrible.

David L. Anderson

Think that.

Unknown Speaker

Was that who did it?

Unknown Speaker

Am I allowed to say anything or I have to sit down?

David L. Anderson

Uh now now now is the Any others from members of the committee?

Unknown Speaker

Online?

David L. Anderson

Okay. Now members of the public. We have we have to keep procedures. That's why I wanted to ask.

Unknown Speaker

The I want to know um like that young man that's mentally ill that comes sometimes to council meetings is will there be like some kind of option to get people like him help? Cause he needs desperately needs help.

David L. Anderson

Oh, yeah. I mean, the guy that thinks he's That thinks someone's cyber slapping him. And the city of Dover is uh trying to assassinate him and that his that his daughter was being killed was killed and his daughter is perfectly fine?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, trying to So, I'm wondering will we have some help for them?

David L. Anderson

And he comes and testifies to council. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

To me, will we have something like

David L. Anderson

MKUltra's listening to him? Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

Is there something to help them? You can't do anything about that cuz it's freedom of speech, and he's giving public comment. He has

David L. Anderson

Oh no. Not not not for that, but like Oh. Just like. Yeah. But the problem that but that but she raises the problem, and that is and that is, until, unfortunately, until he either is shown to be a danger to himself or others or commits some sort of violation. Now Now, that violation could be trespassing, and then you could use that as an excuse to refer him for mental health evaluation and get help. Or others. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

All I said is get, I

David L. Anderson

And there's others, too, but I'm just saying that that that you can refer them to get

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, that paper trail. Yeah. Can't do it on the first one, right?

Unknown Speaker

I would say something like that, you could probably get somebody from 104 to see if, you know, what kind of capacity we have as an entry point or what mechanism.

David L. Anderson

That That could be. But But basically, the main point is because this would be dealing with with a Yeah. It Crime and stuff like that. Okay.

Unknown Speaker

You're a crime fighter. Yeah. And if you're that that's basically my point. I mean, if if you're going through this and you're you're suspecting that there is a mental capacity issue, you know, there has to be a mechanism that you're going to be able to direct them somewhere.

Unknown Speaker

Well, I I'm going to challenge you to that because right now we have a lot of people, I don't know what law or bill got changed in the state of Delaware. Um, we have more people with mental health issues out on the street. It's horrible. And it's it's harder for families to try to get back in control because they still have rights. And they can say, "Hey, no, I don't want my mom to be my" Uh, what is that? Uh, guardian. Guardian. That's You know what I'm saying? And here you are taking them to the appointment and you got to wait for your son to give you permission to even talk to the doctor. But something has changed. I've been trying to find the law. And it's changed within 3 or 4 years because they used to be at the state hospital.

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

And now they're all out. Some rather be outside instead of inside. And I don't think like if they're not harming anyone, the gentleman you all talking about, they still have, you know, they can speak. That's their right. Until they start putting hands and, you know, breaking a law, then you can.

David L. Anderson

Well, the deal is, though, like in his case, because of his mental illness, he's violating PFAs. Yeah. He's uh harassing people and and things like that. And so that So, that that could be. Hey, you said it could be an entry point to It because just violating him doesn't do him any good, it doesn't fix him, it doesn't help him, doesn't help anyone. But if we could get somebody to mental health, it could actually help them instead of

Unknown Speaker

All right. Yeah. They could push them, push them.

David L. Anderson

you know. But anyway, that's That's something we'll discuss when we get there. I think um

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. So, I saw the goal with this then. Basically, that's what

David L. Anderson

Well, we we've we just put everything there and then the committee then the committee will talk about see what's feasible. Now that we're not judging goals right now. We're putting them, they're all reasonable. Mhm. It's just that and we'll figure out what's feasible in the next couple of months. Yeah. Uh, and that's the um are there Now, let's if there It We'll have this um written, sent out. Are there any of And we'll have them sent out to the uh

David L. Anderson

rest of the members so that they have their chance via email to add what their thoughts as well. Mhm. Um, and then we'll we will bring it back in November after the election. And we can uh talk.

David L. Anderson

All right. Um, so now, let's uh branch a little bit about um how Now, we've done some with events and town halls first. But what how Let's see. How do we want to look at um I mentioned the possibility of, once we develop something worth seeing, to do an evening meeting and getting public input. But are there any other ways that we should engage the community then and maybe even before, and, you know, all along? What What's would be a good community engagement strategy to

Unknown Speaker

How about a survey? Survey?

David L. Anderson

How about we drop in a survey? I A survey sounds good. I I like that idea. Um, survey.

Unknown Speaker

Problem is when you're doing a survey is the survey can't ensure that it's representative of the community. Agreed. Not residents. That's That's the only problem with the

David L. Anderson

Agreed.

Unknown Speaker

the survey. And also the level of intelligence of the folks doing it relative to the question, which might necessitate a orientation program prior to the survey.

David L. Anderson

That That makes sense uh cuz, uh, I mean, let's be honest, uh um, you know, uh half the people on this committee had no idea what Alderman's Court did before they came. Now, you all are Yeah, like you could explain it to people now, but and then And that's fine. But it's uh Well, I said only. I only said about half. And that And that was cool because that's what we were after. We were after you know, a getting a diverse uh level of knowledge, opinion, and so on. And, and bringing some people in who just have a totally fresh perspective. And, as well as people who had extensive knowledge. And that way uh, you know, it it the whole point was to have that balance, because if we if uh we're we're going along and half the people are like, you know, we It's time to recalibrate, because then we're not going to reach the general public. Um, so that was important. Um, see. But, yeah, I like this idea of a survey, because the the survey can ask those questions like, you know, what Yeah. Do you These are what the committee Do you have other goals? Do you approve of these? What What do you What else do you think? Uh, you know, do you believe it will work at all? You know, once you get down to the final question, you know. Then you could give the people who are like, "What goals? I don't like it at all." You know, and then give them the chance to express their opinion. Um, you know, and all So, I I like the idea of a survey. You can do survey online and on paper.

David L. Anderson

That's something we can that that we can work on uh

David L. Anderson

Uh, yes, please.

Unknown Speaker

Did you Can I turn around?

David L. Anderson

Please. Go ahead.

Unknown Speaker

All right. So, um survey, I'm like this. Sure. You know what I mean? I do surveys all the time in my job, but um going off like uh Brian's uh why he doesn't like surveys or one thing to keep in mind, and saying that,

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

but I think a town hall would be great. Agreed. But town hall can't be promoted like 1 week to say it's a town hall.

David L. Anderson

Sure.

Unknown Speaker

We need to promote it so people know what it is we're talking about and why we're calling the town hall. Make it so that they know what we're talking about. Yeah. Not just showing up and then finding out what we're talking about. And I think it needs to be more than one town hall. Agreed. Works. And it needs to be more than one. And do a pre-survey, post-survey. Oh yes, that's where you And that's a great survey because that's a a very meaningful survey. Uh-huh. Um, and then pre and with pre and um post-survey.

Unknown Speaker

Town town halls have got to be carefully managed. Otherwise, they can get out of control. Well, that's true.

David L. Anderson

Well, that's true.

Unknown Speaker

And become a b i t c h, you know, b session. Right. That's true. And you want to avoid that. It can happen in any event, but you want to keep that to a minimum. Yeah. You want some positive feedback from the public. They need to come prepared. Yay or nay, or what they think the problem is or what the solution is. Mhm. That's what you're looking for.

David L. Anderson

Yeah. We We can be pretty In fact,

Unknown Speaker

Just another tool in the tool box.

David L. Anderson

Huh?

Unknown Speaker

60 minutes public comment. That's what If it's a full room, that's what they do at Legislative Hall. Right.

Unknown Speaker

60 minutes. I mean 60 seconds.

David L. Anderson

Excuse me.

Unknown Speaker

You know what I mean. Oh, no. I I thought you meant I thought you meant like

David L. Anderson

Oh, no. I I thought you meant I thought you meant like limit them, limit the town hall to

Unknown Speaker

Yeah. 60 seconds. Yeah, not the town

David L. Anderson

not the town hall, but the public comments to 60 minutes regardless of how many people are there.

Unknown Speaker

60 seconds, 60 seconds, brother.

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Unknown Speaker

I um I don't necessarily I'm not necessarily um give any ideas on how uh to do the outreach, but I just think it's important to get um um information back from any communities that are I'm sure they have data on other um, you know, on other uh courts to see which communities are affected the most, because, even if we send those out and we do all these things, if most of the feedback is coming back from, let's say, communities that are barely um marginalized then we're going to be making decisions based on, you know, people that aren't really even affected. So, I just think we need to make sure that everybody's in. I I don't know how, you know, to do that. I'm sure they can come up with a 100 different ideas. But I think that's just that's very important to get them in on everything that's going on. I know it's difficult to get people to actually, um, you know, get involved. And we can't make anybody get involved, but I just want to make sure that we do our due diligence to try to make sure everybody Yeah.

David L. Anderson

Agreed, and uh one of the good things about if we get the court that we want to get, based upon those goals, the the commu- it will improve the quality of life most of the marginalized communities, and uh and but it will affect favorably the whole city, the whole city will be improved because you're going to basically have a you're going to have a functioning, prosperous, peaceful city again. And uh that over the long run, and won't be instant, but but you will have that again and that will be benefit everybody: jobs, best way quality of life, people getting the help they actually need instead of it's yeah, it it will instead of essentially either being uh catch and release and ignore, or having uh or then when they're finally not ignored, uh uh having the boom fall on them, you know, and and being crushed by the system. You know, it it's like we go to the two extremes. Mhm. And there has to be something in between. There has to be something that all has accountability, but also redemption as a goal. In my view. And that's

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, I think getting all that information uh upfront is definitely going to affect the success of the court because, I mean, we can do it all day long, but if it's not we're not getting to, you know, the goals that we're trying to reach, then, you know

David L. Anderson

I think if we get those goals, that there won't be a problem getting a passage because everybody will buy into them. The question is, can we achieve that, and that we'll find figure out in the next couple of months. Um, let's uh let's see. That takes community engagement strategy. That takes us to the end of our agenda. Uh, I want to hear if anyone has any final thoughts before we adjourn. Dr. Hall?

Unknown Speaker

Yeah, just going back to the previous If assuming we can get it approved and bring it through the council then we're we're hoping uh obviously would it the cross issue there to uh have some uh lobbyists and influencers go on to the next stage. Mhm. Whether they be the council members themselves or community members, the members here, or others that you know, can help do that uh to take it to the next level. Yeah. It would be frustrating to get it approved and then have it, you know, uh uh either uh obfuscated or ignored at the next levels. So, we want to Agree. keep Charter

David L. Anderson

Charter changes are are Let's be honest, charter changes are 98% approved. And uh if we get this type of community buy-in that we're going to try to get, it will be approved. And don't forget we once had an alderman's court in Dover. That's Yeah. It's not And it's not something new to the state. It's operational all

Unknown Speaker

And don't forget we once had an alderman's court in Dover.

Unknown Speaker

Yeah.

David L. Anderson

over. from the one part to the other. It would be hard to say, "Oh, Dover, you can't do one." Yeah. You know, I mean it they could, but it would be hard to because it takes a two-thirds majority to amend a charter. Yeah. But it is um it would be very hard to say that to the people. And quite frankly, if we got to that level and the people really wanted it and we were being obstructed, I would uh move to put it on the April election ballot. Yeah.

David L. Anderson

And if the people endorsed it, there's no way it would be turned down. Look, I think at the state sorry. I I think at the the state level, I think this is a real issue across the state. Yeah. I mean,

Unknown Speaker

I think they're looking for a solution for these low-level offenses. They're they're getting backed up, you know, with with the attorney generals, you know, not that not being enough and, you know, being in a more They can't be everywhere, you know, there's more population than there ever has been and and they need some type of mechanism to to help, you know, at a at an earlier stage, get into an entry an entry point. And so I think there'd be a lot of attention or at least a pilot program, uh you know, for the state. You know, hopefully, they would, you know, be accepting to that.

David L. Anderson

See, I I would like to add a goal 10, quite frankly, on that, and that is um like for people who who are need don't have these repeat offenders, uh uh return don't do um that if they don't have the drugs, mental health, et cetera, being still having the right to refer them to essentially something like a reentry-type program where they can get and where if they they do have a probation before judgment. Mhm. Right? A probation before judgment and um peanut butter and jelly sandwich, right? And and um and then, it for as a condition that probation before judgment, they can get paid uh training, you know, but they got to show up. They have to do the job. They can't quit it. They can't They got, you know, so on. They have to do their workforce development, and and they can get uh soft skills and and all all of the things that uh it according to an assessment that would it have to be assessed for their needs. And if they and if that happens, um we will literally change not just the city, but we're going to change family trees because then you're going to change people's lives, and you're going to change their children's lives. Because one of the problems we have, yeah, now I'm commentating, but one of the problems that I see so often is uh a generational chain where people just don't know better because their parents didn't know better, their grandparents didn't know better, and they're falling in the same trap because they never seen, and never been presented with an alternative.

David L. Anderson

And not everybody's going to take advantage of an opportunity that you offer them. Some people are still But if you can get a third, if you can get a half, you've that changed the whole dynamic, because then you're going to reduce crime, you're going to reduce repeat offenses. Uh, Network Delaware had an interesting program that they launched in Wilmington. And in that program, 25% in some of those neighborhoods, it's the lowest reduction in crime. Some of them were 50 to 60% in targeted scenarios.

David L. Anderson

You know, they had me at 25%, but when I was looking through those numbers and I'm seeing

David L. Anderson

Uh-huh, wow. This is more like 40%. And some of the neighbors, 50, 60%. It's like, that's not the whole solution, but that's something we've got to have here. But you have to have a mechanism also to refer people into. And probation before judgment is- gives us one of those tools because we want to give people a second chance, but if they don't want to take it, then- then put them in the system. That's their choice, not ours. But-

Speaker 2

One drawback to that is the fact that most of these the crimes you're talking about are low-level crimes that have little or no incarceration, paying a fine. So you have to get the person to agree, in lieu of being found guilty of the charge, they agree to an extended time, which maybe, which will obviously work- be more than 30 days, most likely. True. Because most- most

David L. Anderson

Right.

Speaker 2

rehabilitation programs, drug programs, or what have you, are more than 30 days.

David L. Anderson

That's true.

Speaker 2

So you have to get the person to agree. You You do that by by showing who provides them all these services, Yes.

David L. Anderson

Yes.

Speaker 2

which you've you've never even seen before.

David L. Anderson

Yeah. We have to set up where where it's appealing to them because it's like, yeah, I can have this and keep going down a negative path, or I have a chance to actually change my life and do something different and look at all these benefits. You know, I I had nothing. Now I I can go in and have job training and and now I can get help. I can get relationship advice. I can get all these things, and and it's like yeah, they can help find me rent rental assistance. It's like, why wouldn't I do this? You know, I mean, most people are rational. You know, if the people who aren't are the ones that will be referred to drug court. Because they they usually have substance abuse. Yes, sir.

Speaker 3

Well, you know, one of the frustrating things for me is every morning I go into the Wawa on Forrest Street, and I would say at least 25% of the time, somebody's stealing something and walking out the door. It's just so blatant. It's ridiculous.

David L. Anderson

Yeah. Mhm.

Speaker 3

And, you know, when I question, you know, some of the community advocates out there, and like, you know, "What's going on? What, you know, what gives?" And and I'm like at some point we're going to have to do something, and then like, "Well, you know, it's really not their fault. They don't have IDs. They don't have the ability to get a job because they don't have an address." You know, all those things. And I and I just think of this as a way, and I'm sure they're doing it at a state level with their courts, but there's got to be a marrying of services that if you get taken to this this Alderman's, that you don't have proper identification, you don't have these things, that you have the ability that, you know, to do that, or have an entry point to to get that. Because I hear that all the time, that, "I don't have documentation."

David L. Anderson

Right.

Speaker 3

And and and this isn't that the forum for it, but at some point is there something the city can do for um a mailing mechanism to to be able to support a job if, you know, they need a place to mail stuff?

Speaker 2

Well, they could do it at Social Services.

David L. Anderson

Yes, they can. They can.

Speaker 3

I found that out a year ago that, you know, they receive food stamps or whatever, they can use that as their address for mail.

David L. Anderson

They can.

Speaker 3

Yep.

Speaker 2

But again, do they know it?

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Are they told that, okay?

David L. Anderson

Yeah, they are. And I I do know that for a fact. Fact uh I said I used to have a um quite frankly, uh we we used to be uh part of a uh nonprofit uh ministries for homeless. Uh in fact, we we worked with people to get the IDs. I mean, it's been years doing that, quite frankly. Uh fortunately, other people did pick up on stuff and and we can get out of that. Yay. Because they yeah because some people But that was um important. So, yes. Uh-huh.

Speaker 2

Councilman, at some point this this subcommittee uh is going to have to come to terms with uh the a projected cost

Speaker 3

Yeah. Absolutely.

Speaker 2

for the for this court, and what you're going to have to do is bring in someone from I guess we have we have the financial folks here, someone from the the local police department, and uh not so much for public works, but but also from the Dover's Clerk's Office so we can estimate what's go- what's going to cost us. People what administratively wise to do this, we have to prepare citations,

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Speaker 2

we have to get them out to the uh local authorities, and this type of thing.

David L. Anderson

And you will probably need a bailiff.

Speaker 3

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Bailiff.

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Speaker 2

Bailiff.

David L. Anderson

Probably more than one, um, if if and then uh it that's true.

Speaker 2

And a and a judge.

David L. Anderson

Y- you have to. At least prob- at least two there, um, at least part-time once the court-

Speaker 2

Part-time. Part-time.

Speaker 3

And as far as alderman goes, I mean, the initial costs, you know, so that we don't take from the city, uh you know, I I talked to a couple people that would be willing to volunteer, at least initially, Good. just to to to to get things up and running.

David L. Anderson

That would be good, and that would be uh extraordinarily valuable. We need to um-

Speaker 2

And once and once we have that, if we want to go forward with this thing, then we can contact uh uh Ms. Harris in the legislature, or other other legislators, to see whether we can do an add-on or whatever for the for it funding the court. But, of course, that we have that's maybe a step too far until we actually propose to put through an amendment to our charter. Well,

David L. Anderson

you want Once the charter amendment is approved, then Council is not going to immediately form one, cuz all that would do is give Council the authority to. And Council right and who knows after the election? But right now, as currently constituted, if that we're if we find an acceptable way, Council would get to see that. But it it would probably take at least nine months, cuz you have to find a location, you have to uh find staff, you have to find uh money to fund the initial startup, you have to- Yeah, in other words, there's it it Once it's approved, it won't You can't snap your fingers and it will pop up. It's going to take nine months to a year to really set everything up, get the the Then the uh the the judges are not basically nominated by the city leadership, but then they have to um be approved by the Senate. Yeah.

Speaker 2

The Governor takes that. Make sure it be approved by Judicial Nominating Commission and then send the names to the Governor and the Governor took the could be a The judges

David L. Anderson

Well, we we want to do it like uh Newark basically and and if it's like the city nominates, then it goes to the Governor and Yeah. you know, it After all, it's um I mean, in the state magistrate court, you don't even have to be an attorney. Um we we'll probably be wanting to pick, you know, an attorney, but I'm just saying that it-

Speaker 2

You can have lay judges.

David L. Anderson

You can. You can. So there's there's opportunities. I just uh If we have to go there, like if it assisted, the chief judge, in my view, has to be an attorney because you need somebody with that legal background overseeing everything in case somebody makes a mistake or whatever. It can be correct. I mean, that's that's my opinion. I

Speaker 2

That's probably that's wise. I would think that's wise.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Um yes, sir, and then I'll get right back to you.

Speaker 5

Yeah, last time I brought up the figure of about 1/2 a million for startup, including uh salaries and uh security, uniforms, and and the like. My question is, is there any feasibility to the idea of having some of the organizations that we would co-op for help after a sentencing to assist us with that funding, possibly through a grant procedure, um that would also include us?

David L. Anderson

That's something to investigate.

Speaker 5

Uh something to think about, maybe.

Speaker 4

It is something to think about. Um so which thank you for recognizing me, Councilman Anderson. Um which is one of the reasons actually Councilman Lewis and I were discussing this and why I asked, you know, what the status of Alderman's Court is because, obviously, there's going to be a financial component to it. There There's other Aside from startup costs here, you need to um Yeah, you need to look at the administrative fees where if you're going to participate part time or full time, if it's part time, you don't have to worry about employee benefits as an example, whereas if you have full-time employees, then you're going to have health benefits, which is going to increase that $500,000 figure, right? So there there's a lot of nuances involved. Uh my initial thought was, is this something because we're reducing maybe some of the overhead load on the DOJ, would would it be possible for them to help us fund the startup costs as as you said, as a pilot? That's an initial thought, but I'm still in the learning stages um where you are right now to be able to uh really comment further on how we can look at it possibly financing it.

David L. Anderson

Okay. And then, uh take the floor, because we're about ready to adjourn.

Speaker 3

So this might take some time, so I was just thinking um is there a way that we can find out from traffic violations that are given out in the city of Dover what portion of those fines is going to the state for court costs? That's a great question. So if we could get that projection, at least from a revenue standpoint, that would help us kind of break down whether this is a sustainable, you know, uh

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Speaker 4

Couldn't you get that from Dover PD?

David L. Anderson

Um we'll get it. We'll get it. I mean, we'll Go- will probably will fund it probably through the city manager and finance, and they'll get it to Dover PD, and what- we'll get to that answer, too.

Speaker 2

Well, there's a Delaware State Statistical Office that comes up with all these figures. What they could readily give you this statistics.

Speaker 4

What's the name of it?

Speaker 2

I think it's called the Delaware Statistical Office. Statistical. They got all the this they can It's on the computer, they can print it out for you. How much How much money goes to the state for all state courts. Because on all these minor charges, you have various charges added to the fine. Yeah, you do.

David L. Anderson

Yeah, they do.

Speaker 2

Thank you. So, and that adds That makes That That's why it makes the fine so high.

David L. Anderson

Hm. True. A $25 fine, it cost you $85.

Speaker 2

Well, I can tell you I can tell you one, in my in my time on the bench, we always had a tremendous backlog of people not paying fines, which is pretty large, and then we had to go out and collect it.