Transcript: Council Committee of the Whole Meeting

Fred A. Neil

I now call to order the committee, Council Committee of the Whole meeting of Tuesday, October the 13th, 2026. This is in order. I would like to remind the public that public comments are welcome on any item, and are permitted at the appropriate time. You have before you this evening's agenda, and entertain a motion for its adoption.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Move for adoption of the agenda.

Andre M. Boggerty

Second.

Fred A. Neil

It's been moved and seconded. Any comment? Hearing none, all in favor please say aye.

Council Members

Aye.

Fred A. Neil

Any opposed? The agenda is adopted. First on the agenda we have Council reports. First District, Dr. Pillsbury.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Thank you. I've handled a few complaints or concerns voiced of problems in the district, and that's about it for the past month. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Rocha, Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you, Council President. Um, to begin with, I went to the Family Court ribbon cutting ceremony. Also attended two construction and property code enforcement board appeals meetings. Also went to the DEMEC dinner. Also had a meeting with DDP with the EPA Riverwalk assessment with also Jason Lyon in attendance, our assistant city manager, and we had a Village of Dover town hall meeting at the library and attended that. Other than some constituent complaints that I'm working on, that's pretty much my report. And thank you, Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Second District, Councilman Lewis. I didn't thank you for the gift that you brought back from the opening of Delaware State News in the city, and want to thank you for that. And you have your report. Is he... Was his mic...

City Clerk

She's trying to get him.

Fred A. Neil

Okay, let's have, uh, is Councilwoman...

City Clerk

Ms. Hall's not online.

Fred A. Neil

She's not online? Uh, Councilman Lewis, let's see if we can get back to Councilman Lewis from the Second District.

City Clerk

Okay.

City Clerk

She's done.

Fred A. Neil

Well, while we're waiting for those to be able to get on with us, uh Councilwoman Arndt from the Third District. Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. I have a few complaints to note. I had several constituents uh raise concerns for trash in the neighborhood, trash and overgrowth. Had someone concerned about sweet peas planted upon request for planting of trees in regard or close to roads, uh and also pretty close to trees are maintained with the power line. Had meetings with constituent services, uh, and have spoken to several constituents about um and concerned about issues with that. But, um, to be optimistic and, um, that pretty much is my report.

Fred A. Neil

Okay, Councilman Anderson, Fourth District.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. President. Uh, we have had a busy month. Went to the town hall meeting, the airport wall has been accomplished, and things for the constituent, thank you, Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Anderson, thank you. Councilman Sudler, Fifth District.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. ... downtown, working with the Speech Clinic on that property downtown. Code enforcement officers have been working on conversations, hopefully we can deal with the properties that appear to be occupied, but actually, they're not in compliance, they're abandoned. So, working with them so we can clean up the location of our downtown area. And of course, had hearings with appeals on that property, so we've had a couple of hearings. Other issues we've had, but I'll thank you, thank you, thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Councilman Lewis, are you unmuted now?

Brian E. Lewis

Can you guys hear me?

Fred A. Neil

Yes, sir. You're on now.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. This is for district report, all right?

Fred A. Neil

Correct. Second District, you're clear.

Brian E. Lewis

Attended the, uh, DSU event on Saturday, which was a ribbon cutting event. Um, even with that, I say the reopening of the new apparel store, which is now located at the Dover Center. Um, I have handled various constituent concerns and complaints in the past month. Make sure that their constituent concerns on are heard, and also, um, an ongoing issue on White Oak Road and uh complaint with uh hole or a manhole near what is uh, I guess, a manhole on Stony Creek Drive. Uh, so I addressed those issues, and it was addressed by the city, and that's pretty much it. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. My report. I attended the, uh, October the 8th Code Board of Appeals hearing with Chairman Sommer. Uh, thanks to the chair of DHR, Dr. Michu Nedler, who uncovered the second Third District representative that has been missing with the death of the original member of that board, and her name is Chiara Fox Mulholland. Uh, Third District, we had three East Lake constituent complaints, one involving a storm drain, one dealing with a truck and a shopping cart, and then grass being blown down into drains, all three handled by Code Chief Kopp. A constituent called and requested that Acorn Lane be closed off to non-local traffic as East Loockerman Street was blocked off. The matter was referred to Assistant Manager Lyon, who reported that Acorn Lane is a DelDOT roadway and not under City control. A constituent complained once again about a new house being built at William and Water Street. The complaint this time was about debris, and Code Inspector Kopp has already taken actions against the property owner. And after being referred to by Yvonne Martine, I've discussed with a man living on White Oak Road at 83, at 83 April Drive about a problem with a neighbor. And that's my report. And now, is Councilwoman Hall now available?

City Clerk

She's not here yet.

Fred A. Neil

She's not here available. Because of that, uh, we will switch to, uh, the Legislative and Finance, uh, Committee, uh, and that motion, uh, goes to Councilman Anderson. The floor is yours, sir.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. President. The Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee is now called to order. First, we have the adoption of the agenda. Councilman Boggerty, you're recognized.

Andre M. Boggerty

Moving for adoption of the agenda.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Rocha, second.

David L. Anderson

Moved and seconded. Yes, ma'am.

Tricia K. Arndt

So are we having the Parks and Rec end items after?

David L. Anderson

Yeah.

Tricia K. Arndt

Okay.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

You get paid overtime.

David L. Anderson

Yeah. We can we can be our, uh, our own best wish, you know, adopt these. And, uh, is there any discussion? Further discussion? All in favor?

Council Members

Aye. Aye.

David L. Anderson

Hearing none, the agenda is adopted. Councilman Boggerty, you have a...

Andre M. Boggerty

Oh, thanks. You know what? I was, I was, my colleague, I was looking to have the Parks and Rec, but that's that. You're on.

Tricia K. Arndt

Like into Parks since...

Andre M. Boggerty

So, uh, I'll save it for, thank you.

David L. Anderson

No problem. Okay, then, let's, uh, do a quick verification. Uh, Mr. Chabalko, are you there?

Dave Chabalko

Yes, sir.

David L. Anderson

Yeah, we can hear you. Uh, Mr. Gargagliano, are you there?

Mark Gargagliano

We're here.

David L. Anderson

We can hear you. Thank you.

David L. Anderson

That brings us to the first item, which is proposed Ordinance 2026-15, uh, amending Chapter 42, Environment, by adding, uh, Section 42-3, Lighting. Mr. Eddie Kopp, Chief Code Enforcement Officer, you are recognized.

Eddie Kopp

Good evening. Uh, before you tonight is a ordinance, uh, in reference to lighting, um, particularly residential zones. Uh, there's been an influx in complaints regarding, uh, light pollution. It's been used as a tactic to harass the neighbors, per se, to where large spotlights are being installed on the side of houses, shining into windows, often into the evening. This ordinance would help give me teeth to, uh, as to prevent that. There is current, uh, language in the zoning ordinance, but it only covers commercial properties. So this would give us, uh, some teeth to be able to stop light pollution. Uh, the fee structure is identical to, um, all other code enforcement fines, so the default fine would be $100 fine, and it goes up with subsequent offenses.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Oh, she laughed. I was wondering, did my neighbor did my neighbor report light pollution going into her, that was, that was... But anyway, um, it's not a big concern.

David L. Anderson

Councilman Rocha, you're recognized.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you, Mr. Chair. No, actually, um, I fielded a call, not nearly with those, yeah, I know, I know. Um, you know, that that the, um, one one of the neighbors within our district is shining a light, and we understand how you want your backyard, you know, to to be able to be lit, but it shouldn't impede on somebody else's property, I don't think. So that's that's one of the things. This has been an ongoing issue, light going into somebody's bedroom window. That's basically, uh...

Eddie Kopp

Yeah, and this is a common complaint. Uh, cuz this this complaint comes up a lot. Unfortunately, there's no language in the code to make it enforceable. We have language on commercial, nothing enforceable. No enforceable language for cars or anything, so it's a very common nuisance.

David L. Anderson

Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. So you mentioned lumens specifically, and that that was my my question. It just it seems, uh, you know, unusually bright lighting, but like, say, if there was some criteria to define what that would be, and I know I don't see lumens in there, but that would be a criterion, I would think, for what enters or crosses to someone's...

Eddie Kopp

Yeah, so, um, the commercial code has actual, this can be if you want to put, uh, a certain lumen to where that can be resolved. But in residential, it's, uh, anytime there's lighting complaints, well, that's that's not in... Okay. My bad. We can add that in there.

Tricia K. Arndt

If you could take a look, maybe other municipalities that have already incorporated a residential light, uh, ordinance component and see how that compares, because unusually bright, it's just it's tough to interpret and subjective, because it's not an issue with light or darkness, it might be an issue for someone else. But I would like some sort of criteria in there. Thank you. I yield.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Uh, coming right back to you. Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh, yes, Inspector Kopp, is there anything on, uh, the state law, Delaware State Code in regards to this? Uh, because like you say, complaints coming in, and I know I go with under the impression that, um, something for instance, air space that would require a ordinance or a law. I like the concept, but like you've done, has anybody complained, I mean, a whole street lamp, for example, that shines on a neighbor's window? That's what I want to make sure. I want to make sure that's, what happens then?

Eddie Kopp

Yeah, the installation of it is the violation of it. So if, and that covers if someone's, you know, that falls on Delmarva, but with this, it's more for direct light installed onto, uh, residential property. So, all right.

Eddie Kopp

So, if they, um, if I put a spotlight up on the side of my my house shining into the neighbor's property, that's an installation of it. Um, I'm causing the problem by installing that light on the side of house, as where if I'm just driving by with my vehicle and the lights shine in there, you know, that's that's incidental.

Brian E. Lewis

All right, so someone puts, for example, in the yard, a lantern, okay, that's shining on the neighbor's window, would that be acceptable? What's the criteria for that? What about someone wants to secure their property, they want to make sure that light, you know, they want to make sure that house, you know, be protected. How are you going to deal with that situation?

Eddie Kopp

So, the intent is for direct light. One, and two, saying, um, I myself have spotlights in my house, and, um, out of respect for the neighbor, they're pointed in a way to they're not shining into the neighbor's, um, in the windows. I believe it's feasible, uh, with my own experience, it's it's very feasible to direct that light away from windows and still maintain the the security, uh, of your property. So, I understand there's going to be...

Eddie Kopp

language here, um, that could leave it up to question. But the goal here is to prevent nuisance lighting, uh, and I know Councilman Rocha made comments of this, but this isn't the first complaint we've got, um, for lights. And the pictures I've seen, it's not a matter of someone trying to illuminate their yard, they've installed spotlights directly shining into windows, and that's the problem we're at here, um, is it's it's being used to harass the neighbor. It's not necessarily, uh, security lighting. And and that's the issue. If we need to clean up the language on this, um, I'll take all recommendations, but that that's the issue with why this word is being put in.

Tricia K. Arndt

Uh, and again, obviously, shining light directly into windows, we would uh But my concern is if you cancel out, you know, a situation where you can have that which would be a space that can get quite or you open your home, you're going to have open company over on the parcel and be like a sport different situations because other than situations like that spotlight directly pointed at, say, the windows, like, shining into windows there, but that's the only type of light. I understand that's part. It's kind of, it's solved, you know, when I'm looking at it, and if it's well, nuisance lights, people's windows inside the house, that, of course, can't be helped, you know, if that's light, um, when when I walk my dog, see something is somebody going to complain and the window, uh, child sleeping. Is it going to be a nuisance? if we're talking about, you know, lights down, but when we get into these...

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Any comments on that, Will?

William Pepper

So, any kind of beaming into a window, um, would not be an incidental light. As far as the incidental light, it's installed, maintained, operated, or caused to be operated. So, again, a vehicle would not, um, it would not fall into incidental. Like a flashlight, right?

Eddie Kopp

Correct. Even a flashlight, because it's not installed on the property, uh, which is why it's worded that way. This language is very similar to Kent County's. I just amended it to, um, reflect the city and went off their standards. So, uh, it's language that is in Kent County's code.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Councilwoman Hall.

Donyale M. Hall

And I happen to have children living in the city, and so that light has been cracked, so I can kind of understand where he was going with that. And there may be, uh, it spilled over unintentionally to cameras as a result of the lighting to have that feature. I agree.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Um, so, yeah, I heard everything about cameras. I don't know well, but they they do go on and off and they're not beaming into the bedroom, illuminating the bedroom so one can't sleep. That's really the nuisance. Um, and and then if folks are not, I mean, if you had a motion sensor, it it might beam for a second, and that might be a good thing, because when that comes on, that means somebody's protruding into the area on either property. But in this case, it's a fixed light from somebody else's property beaming into the bedroom window of somebody else and disturbing sleep is where this arose from. Um, and then I want to go back to what Councilwoman Arndt pointed out about the lumens, which I technically agree, but then how would you be able to determine what the lumen lumens are? Because you're not really allowed to go on the property, so when it's spectral light, so I think that's why it looks like it's written the way it is. And uh you know, just rethinking it, um that might be okay the way it's written. Um, I think it will become, you know, a constituent complaint-driven most likely, you know, in that instance. Um, and at at that point, they would look into what the lumen lumens are and how bright it is or point it down to get it out of somebody's bedroom window. That that would be my thoughts on, uh, the purpose of this ordinance, I mean, if I may.

Andre M. Boggerty

Um, I also use camera spotlights, right? If I'm aiming that camera at somebody's window, I have another problem, right? That warrants a PD problem. So the light should not impact even if it is a camera light, because you shouldn't be shining a camera in somebody's window. That's the only way your light from a camera would be going into somebody else's window, right? So a little bit of light that that's reflecting, it's it's going to happen, but it's not hindering that, um, that neighbor. So I understand what everyone's saying, but camera, I think camera should be left out of this. It's not a part of this, um, it's not a part of this ordinance, and we don't want to intrude on anyone's, uh, rights per se.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Councilman Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. President, I request a point of personal privilege at this time, and I would, uh, like to advise Council that, uh, I think that, uh, as king of the FOIA violations, uh, we all know that, uh, to change the order of the Council Committee of the Whole requires a motion of Council to amend the agenda. We have not done so, and it shows the propriety that we may be trying to pull a fast one. So I would count ask Council either to amend the agenda and approve it, with no deference to you, Eddie, after your great presentation, that we do this the right way, the way that it needs to be done. The public is counting on us to do so. So Mr. President, I would request that there be a motion of Council to amend the agenda or go back to its original format as advertised. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Is there such a motion? I'll entertain a motion to that effect.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Mr. President, um, return the press return it, uh, back over to you for for this, and then that that I move that we, uh, uh, continue, uh, with, uh, the change that earlier requested to place the Finance and then Parks, Recreation, Community Enhancement.

Tricia K. Arndt

I'll second.

Fred A. Neil

Now that's been seconded. I just want to make one note that the reason it was done, it was not done on purpose. It was done because the chairperson was not here to basically take that meeting, and so that was the reason for it. Any discussion on the motion? No discussion. All in favor, please say aye. Any opposed? It passes unanimously. Please continue, Mr. Chairman.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Thank you, Mr. President. Um, Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, thank you. Um, it happens of our fine city to listen, the individuals who probably should have wanted to go to law school, but they did not. There's a standard called a reasonable person standard. The reasonable person standard is a is a legal standard that represents a hypothetical benchmark of ordinary intelligence, caution, and prudence used by courts to evaluate whether a person's, uh, behavior was negligent. So, in this particular case, in we it would be I don't know how many of us, except a few individuals, who will run out and measure lumens of a light bulb, um, just to make sure that they didn't violate it by one lumen, because I don't know how that's measured. But there is a reasonable person standard. So, then therefore, to add specificity to that language to say it has to be this many, again, um, would would would pigeonhole you or hold you to a standard that ultimately is probably couldn't measure by eye, pun intended. Um, and then so therefore, what's what what what I'd recommend, what I what I'd base on this logical and legal, uh, framework is called the reasonable person standard. I joke a lot with my dear, ha, colleague, well, not my colleague, but um, and I and I'm super mindful that I, by mistake, and quite mistakenly installed a light, but I'll have to adjust the light because one of my neighbors, it shines right into their house, even though there are trees, and I didn't know until I noticed. So, therefore, I don't use that light. We or if I happen to turn it on, I have caller text that individual to say, "Hey, I'm just finishing my grilling, it won't be on long." Because it's over my grill, and I like to grill and eat. Um, I'll turn it off until I can adjust it. So, the point is the the framework in in this is we understand cars that drive past. We understand security. I have security lights all around my home. If you come to my house uninvited, I can see you a mile away. We tried. So, um, so it like like my other colleague said, I like glowing. If I can't see, but who wants someone peering, peeking through, right? I say that, I hope to see just plain the truth that this is clearly a wording or that the reasonable person standard can hurt would apply. I I agree, though. I I don't think anybody will argue with I will dash like myself and keep on, you know. But if he's standing in my window with a flashlight, he'd better move very fast because I want to see his flashlight. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Is your house protected by Mr. Smith and Mr. Wesson?

Andre M. Boggerty

[laughter]

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. Is there anyone in the public who wanted to make a comment? You'd have to chime in now. Okay. It looks like that question must've been answered. Anyone online?

City Clerk

Mr. Garfinkel.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Mr. Garfinkel? Yes.

City Clerk

Could you please unmute, Mr. Garfinkel? Go ahead.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

You may proceed.

Mr. Garfinkel

[inaudible] Good afternoon, Mayor and members of council, can you hear me?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

We can hear you now. Yes.

Eddie Kopp

Thanks for the question. Um, will both, uh, I will clarify. Um, I I understand what you're saying, but even even floodlights, I don't think it's going to be disruptive for those lights, uh, spotlights, uh, those kind those kind of lights. Like, LED lights now are very powerful. They're almost too bright at points, um, but most, uh, outdoor lights have some kind of mechanism to, uh, force the light in a certain direction. That is definitely not what he's trying to talk into someone's window. You might have a little bit of residual light on property, but it's not fully focused into that window to cause that nuisance.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Mr. Shavahn in the audience?

Public Commenter

Yes. Thank you, Councilman. Um, State College and seems to be turned on a blinding light that comes down the road to seen us, uh, toward the bridge. I don't know if State College is regulation that was a question. Even at night, it's uh it's blinding. I don't know if that falls under this or where would that be applied?

Eddie Kopp

Yeah, so it wouldn't fall under this ordinance. However, uh, the the college you're speaking of, that would be considered commercial property. There is already language in the code that accounts for that. If it's a portable light, that might be a little bit different. Um, I mean, we've dealt with this before at a sports field, um, but it fell, because commercial property fell under that, uh, ordinance in the zoning ordinance. Uh, in here, there is no language right now for residential property. It's only commercial property to residential property, not residential to residential, which is why this is being presented.

Public Commenter

And so that would be filed through Code Enforcement?

Eddie Kopp

So, there, there is, um, depending on what it is, if they're violating the lighting, which is already into code, the zoning ordinance...

Public Commenter

Since that's on...?

Eddie Kopp

I can, I'll look into it and see what I can do to address it, because we can enforce the language already. As soon as you're done, you can give our staff your contact information so I can reach out to you.

Public Commenter

Okay. Thank you very much.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Anyone else?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Can I just...

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes, ma'am. Councilwoman Pillsbury.

Julia M. Pillsbury

I'm just going back on on this about commercial properties and how does it get into this, and then it's what's residential? What about businesses right next door to residences? Would that apply the same? Like, the side of, uh, the building, whether it's on a back alley or right next to properties? Number one. Number two, um, and again, Councilwoman Hall had mentioned something about it before, support shed or in the area to illuminate this part of the parcel, uh, and it's in a residential area, how does that...

Eddie Kopp

Yeah, so there is already language, like I said, commercial property onto residential property. Um, so this...

City Staff

ordinance before you tonight is specific to residential and residential property. As you can see, you can't shine light uh into residential. If you do, I do know the sports field we dealt with, it's because they changed everything to LED lights, but they didn't move the lights. So the light was obnoxiously bright. Um, it was going into residential homes. But after a quick conversation,

City Staff

with Staff's attack here, with quick conversation, so notice, and hopefully they'd come to a cleanup. Like we did with the sports field, we let them know it was an issue, and they went out and fixed it within a couple days, uh, just redirected the lights so it wasn't shining into the residential uh into the residential homes. So this is, this ordinance, hopefully is more of an educational ordinance.

City Staff

Just like we use the commercial the commercial zone ordinance now. Anytime we have a problem with this, it's more educational. Businesses don't want um, any negative publicity against them. So when we make them aware of the problem, usually it's fixed right away. And hopefully that's the same intent or the same that happens with the ordinance that we present for you tonight. Um, our goal is to educate, not to ticket. But we do have to have mechanisms to cite people in the event they don't want to comply.

Speaker 2

Is that in your capacity as code control inspecting staff, staff yeah?

City Staff

Yes. So um, initially it's going to be new uh conditional, unless again we have existing light fixtures, which mirrors all the other ones we do. Recently we've noticed, um, trying to get compliance, so it's starting to come down.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay.

Speaker 3

Thank you. I had no objections... 2026-17 in council report. Those letters...

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

All right. Does anyone wish to speak from the public? Any public discussions?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Hear none.

Speaker 4

Okay.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

We did uh. That's fine.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Any other discussions?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

If no one has any discussions, ready for a call?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Any other discussions?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

All in favor?

Multiple Speakers

Aye.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Any opposed?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And that gets the Economic Development portion of this committee... We got here City Manager Sharon Duca and Mr. Tom Gorman.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Welcome.

Sharon Duca

Thank you. Good evening, Sharon Duca, City Manager. Um, this evening I'd like to discuss the potential budget amendment in relation to the Economic and Community Development Fund. Um, I'd like to start um by reviewing uh some of the status of the associated projects that comes right uh to mind.

Sharon Duca

Um, as you may be aware, uh as part of the fiscal 2027 budget, there was a request to remove funds from the Economic and Community Development Fund um to pay for required entrance improvements to Garrison Oak Technical Park. Uh, it was noted in the budget that uh there was a prior year balance of a little over $3 million with a transfer out of $1.426 million, leaving a balance of approximately $1.672 million. The fiscal year 2027 year-to-date budget uh confirms these projections, uh showing that the transfer to the General Fund was complete uh in the amount of $1.426 million.

Sharon Duca

Um, staff had submitted an application for TIP funds uh in May 2026, um which uh showed a revised cost projection of well over $2 million for this project. Um, it was the most current cost estimate based upon design changes that have occurred. And a decision was received on August 26 with approval letter received on September 26 that we received the funding for the project.

Sharon Duca

Um, the project is still in the design phase. Uh, comments have been received from DelDOT, and a meeting with them has been requested. It is unknown at this point if the awarded amount will be adequate to cover the cost of the proposed improvements for the site. It's the goal of staff to place the project to bid within 45 days, but this will tend depend upon the meeting results with DelDOT.

Sharon Duca

Uh, due to the funding from the TIP, it's been urged to complete a budget amendment and return the 1.426 million to the Economic and Community Development Fund. Um, staff recommends that the return of the funds be limited until the project is bid and final costs are determined. Um, a buffer for potential change orders could also be considered.

Sharon Duca

Um, it should also be noted that the original funds for the design work for the project came out of the Economic and Community Development Fund um in the amount of $90,000. Um, it's projected there will be an additional $45,000 in a engineer's change order to address the concerns of DelDOT and make required changes to the plan. Uh, this should this occur, this will come back for council approval as it exceeds the amount that I can approve by policy. And I'm open to any questions.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Any any questions from members?

David L. Anderson

I know there will be, uh, while we're getting that, I I have a couple questions. And first of all, thank you for the update and bringing that to us. Seems like right now we will sort of put it on hold till after this meeting, and uh, and and then uh, what happens, um, one of the things that I had interest in was, of course, uh, bringing the funds uh, back up to the uh, the round the 2 million range, which which we had identified the need for, and the, and maybe using uh, some as a uh, uh, to possibly fund a a rebate to uh, uh, like a in a like in the EPA-type credit to uh, our uh, customers that that we had to uh, raise and raise. And that's part of the discussion that that I was interested in having, and and what that would look like. Uh, right now it's uh it's discussion to be here, we need to uh keep it on hold. That's for something for for us to think about, and and there's other possibilities uh, which which are also valid. But that was uh a discussion that I thought was interesting. I know Councilman Lewis has some input on that, but I can't seem to it seems to be offline right now. Um, anyone anyone else have any thoughts? Priorities?

Fred A. Neil

No.

David L. Anderson

Okay. Councilman Rocha? Saying you're good, okay.

David L. Anderson

All right, if no one else does, uh, thank you.

Sharon Duca

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And then uh, next is Alderman Court Ad-Hoc Committee update. At this time, I will uh call Councilman Anderson, who is the chair.

David L. Anderson

Uh, but I wanted to um, thank you just bringing an an update uh uh back to the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee. I believe you seen the minutes that have been that were in the packet, and the draft minutes. And so you've had a chance to uh follow along with the meetings the committee has had so far. Uh, we've had good robust uh participation, and including uh, I was very grateful for um our state representative Kerry Anderson Taylor's uh participation, so uh which which is very positive. We've had uh uh the clerk of the court from uh Newark, um get some excellent information. And we have our our own um we have our own uh who's experts uh uh on that, when it comes to uh um Mr. Garth Binkle as a uh state magistrate, and of course uh Judge Witham, as a Superior, is a retired Superior Court uh judge, and and they've been very valuable.

David L. Anderson

We also have uh Dr. Hoffman, who was the uh chair of the uh Government and History department at Delaware State University, and who's their uh their expertise has been um I think it's been a very positive addition. And, of course, we have uh the community, and and people from various uh walks of life uh uh, and and a very uh diverse uh group of people. And and so as you go through,

David L. Anderson

now we we first we looked at the feasibility. Uh, it's obviously feasible. It's uh working already in uh six municipalities. Uh, Judge Whittington advised he advised Dover it had one, uh, 70 70 years ago. Um, but a lot but a lot changed in the uh 70 years uh plus. In 1954, uh, a lot changed in that time, and it's uh caused us to reconsider. Uh, we we've looking at uh various uh ways that the court would be able to operate uh fairly, justly, um but also uh not lose money. And there's been some great input from our experts on that setup and how that would work, how that would operate.

David L. Anderson

Uh, quite frankly, as best we can tell, there's not any alderman's court that's losing money in the state of Delaware. Now, some municipalities tried to get rid of them, the ones that have them. We uh we want that, and so that's one of the things that we care about is making it to make it work for Dover. Uh, we are not trying to come up with a mechanism to bring more revenue in. We're trying to come up with a mechanism that we can control our own destiny and be able to enforce the lower-level offenses so that the uh State Department of Justice can do what it feels like it needs to and focus its resources on the higher-level offenses.

David L. Anderson

Uh, there have to be a connection. Uh, uh Newark uh for their needs has shown uh some ways of doing that, and and we would want to do that with ours in in ways that make sense to us, and that includes uh uh 10 goals that that the committee came up with. Uh, one is to improve the quality of life for all, including residents and offenders. Um, one way you would do that would be to uh make sure the court has jurisdiction to allow referrals, such as to uh to drug courts, to veterans court, to specialty courts for people who who need that.

David L. Anderson

Uh, provide clear distinctions between matters handled by the alderman's court and the state court system. Establish the court's jurisdiction, including exclusive and joint jurisdiction. Uh, four, develop cost and revenue estimates and assess uh if the court could be self-sustained. Five, ensure the court is a community-oriented and not driven solely by fines. Six, include referrals, you mentioned the drug court and other specialty courts.

David L. Anderson

Uh, seven, uh retain a criminal focus and avoid affecting people's properties with the court's jurisdiction. Eight, developing sentencing guidelines that include uh constructive community service. Nine, explore whether the court could serve as an entry point to individuals uh needing mental health assistance. 10, explore probation before judgment as a mechanism for uh workforce development, soft skills, and assisting with individual needs.

David L. Anderson

And uh with that, that's what um we support. And uh we have um we we also uh took a look at we can consider uh the continuing the work. Um there's a and then survey the public feedback. So, we'll probably take that in uh close uh to get feedback and so, and then come back and share the draft report and recommendations and be able to have uh public comment and feedback on on the drafted recommendations before anything is final. And uh, and that is about it. We should be ready here in the spring. And uh we will definitely be ready by the fall, which is important because if it has to be um the General Assembly has to get involved with that. Uh, thank you, Mr. Chair.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah, Mr. Anderson. Councilman Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you, Mr. Chair. A quick question just about the public meeting and the survey that you spoke of. Do you have a timeline? Um, and how we plan to get that out to the public, advertise it, and bring forth the opportunity to get feedback?

David L. Anderson

Yes, we did consider that, and it's...

William Faust

William Faust, Dover. I sent an email tonight to all those who hold the find in hand. How can the justice system this day, you're meeting at 3:30 or 4:30. How can dependent public participate virtually? And excuses in budget times for all time. Exclusion of citizens being part of every phase of this. Second of all, the city is $7.8 million in the hole. According to an article from the State News from way back, great little article, it's going to cost about $500,000 to get started. Where are you going to get the seed money? Straight answer, Councilman Anderson. Please, respectful. Two, what are you going to do about security? Facilities, and all that? You can't even get our police officers a decent raise without going to...

Todd Fowler

the fine operation. So you want to put like a judge, office space, more personnel, part-time or full-time. You're putting more money onto the citizens. And you're saying it's not going to be cost-effective or fine-generated? You're going to be making people pay fines. Of course it's going to be paid on the backs of the citizens. The higher courts can take care of these issues for safety. As you said in our article, it will make us much safer. We got gun violence on the street, we got prostitution, other big things. Minor things, speeding, traffic tickets, that's not going to make us safer. You know, prosperity, according to our... we'll be more prosperous. You're going to make a profit on the backs of the citizens? When is enough? You know, you've got to answer all these questions. Where are you going to get security for the place? The, uh, holding cells. Do you have holding cells? All these things. Well, you don't have the money to do this. The higher courts can handle it, let them handle it. If we had a surplus, it would be a different story. We don't have a surplus. We're in the hole. We haven't fixed the budget issues yet. We may have a fourth year of budgets going increasing. So this is not the right thing. Put your energies in bringing more revenue into this city. Make it safer. Get the guns off the street. Get the prostitutes off the street. Get the drugs off the street. That's what will make our city safer and more prosperous if we get rid of the, uh, situation. Thank you.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you for your comments, sir. Uh, I'd like to... to rebut in the event that you will never get the prostitution off the street or the drugs off the street with the current Department of Justice in the regular court because they absolutely will not do it. And that is frankly why we need an alderman's court that will be able to do those particular referrals. Now, for that, that is precisely why we need an alderman's court to do those particular referrals because if... until there's a massive policy change, uh, which has been documented that won't happen...

Todd Fowler

So am I, holding cells, who's going to pay for it?

Brian E. Lewis

Well, uh, thank you. Yes, ma'am.

Kim Cover

Hi, my name is Kim Cover. I'm listening to all this and you're, as Mr. Fowler said, you're adding more onto the constituents of each district for an alderman's court when, as council, can't even handle it. So what makes you think an alderman's court is going to handle crime, prostitution? We can't even get centers to help the homeless, help the people on drugs, that that's the first priority is to get those the help they need before we create a whole new thing uh of people who don't care because they're getting paid not to care. Because if you got paid to care, then you'd be doing something with the power that you guys have. But I don't see anything happening besides putting us in debt, putting the city in even more debt. And it's it's just a vicious cycle that you guys put money in your pockets, and we hope you do that by paying you to do nothing. So an alderman's court is not going to do anything if it's created or not created. The justice system isn't going to handle it, the alderman's court's not going to handle it, because you're going to sit here and you're going to discuss and you're going to fight, you're going to argue and, you know, not put anybody else's uh concerns ahead, which is another form of council. So in in my respect, I'm not supporting it as a constituent because until I see support from the people that we pay on council to do a job, I'm not supporting anything that comes from council's voices to what constituents' concerns are. You guys are listening, but are you actually hearing what the constituents are saying? Are you trying to do anything besides create another Council another committee? Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Chair?

Brian E. Lewis

Yes, uh, Council President Neil.

Fred A. Neil

Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. Exactly, that's exactly what we're trying to do. We're dealing with people, and we've been asked by citizens to help with the people who are not able to help themselves because of addictions or because of mental illness, which is leading to homelessness. There is no way that we can take, legally, action as members of council. You need a legal system that's going to say that this is required of you to have help, uh to do that help, and you need to have a legal system in order to do that. And this has been asked by citizens who have come to us and say they our businesses have been disrupted, we can't make the money, this is the money that we we are going to be paying in order to help these people, and we can't afford it because they're interrupting our businesses and driving uh customers away, and they're hurting the values of our home. That is exactly the reason why the alderman's court steps in and basically does what the uh uh Department of Justice isn't doing. If the Department of Justice was doing this, we wouldn't have to go this way. And citizens who have come to us and asked for this help, not maybe not you, but others who are basically affected, and it has nothing to do with money from these individuals. It has to do with saying this is something that's required of you to get the help that you need, that help has got to be there long enough to be able to get them off of those uh problems with their mental illnesses or of their uh detoxification and to get them into training programs. That's the reason for it. I yield, Mr. Chairman.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you. Todd Fowler? Todd? Yeah. Councilwoman... it's good... Todd? Yeah, Councilwoman...

Bonnie

Hello, my name is Bonnie, I live in Dover. My question is, we do need help getting the homeless people, the drug addicts, you know, the pedestrians from not being hit, instead of everybody fighting, saying you guys are not doing your job, um, why can't we all just accommodate one, and instead of spending more money to open up another factory, why can't we use the old family court that's sitting there that everybody's tax dollars is paying, not just mine, everybody in this room? So accommodate before saying, hey, I'm going to say we're going to add on to a new building. Stop putting buildings in here. Start using the ones we have. There are a lot of buildings that are sitting empty that everybody's tax money is paying for. I'm not just paying for it, everybody's paying for it. So I'm not disagreeing, and I'm not agreeing on what's going on. I think if we accommodate, I do agree with Mr. Fowler on the meeting situation. There's no way I can make it here at 2:00, 3:00 in the afternoon. I know half of everybody in this seat can't make it because people do have other jobs. The point of it is, I'm not saying you've got to, because I'm not going to say that, because it takes a pavilion to clean up this, uh, city. So everybody needs to stop, uh, throwing knives at each other's backs and start working together. We're not going to get anything done by sitting here and working against each other. This is ridiculous. I've been in this building since 2005, and it's the same thing. We're not getting... you guys are doing something, I'm not saying you're not, but the thing of it is we're all pointing fingers at each other instead of working with each other. It's time to stop fighting and start working together. Start using the buildings we have. We have plenty of buildings that are sitting here. You've got the old court, uh, police station, whatever it is, in front of the, um, farmers market. You got the old, um, family court building sitting there. You got the other building sitting here. They're sitting here empty. Use them before you start putting more money out to put us more in debt. $7 million is a lot of money for this city to be in debt. Come on, guys. Nobody, I'm not blaming anybody. I think we just need to start moving together, working together, start putting out more... look at this room. Last night this room was capacitated. Where's everybody at tonight? There's nobody here because they all feel that they're coming in here and telling you how they feel and they see nothing getting done. Mr. Cox, I agree with the light situation, but I don't because on North Poplar Street and Cecil Street, I would love to have a light out there. That's all I have to say. Thank you.

Brian E. Lewis

Uh, yeah. And, uh, point taken about, yeah, exploring, uh, the buildings and others. But right now we're doing the easy stuff, you know. And, uh, yes, Councilwoman.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you, Mr. Vice Chair. Um, I just want to say I understand the intent of exploring this this action, and I appreciate the work that the ad hoc committee has been doing and will continue to do. I don't pretend to see how it's coming together yet. I will withhold judgement until I have all the information. Um, so my question is more to process and timeline. So you have the ad hoc committee, I'd like to know as far as meeting schedule, how much longer do you think they'll be focused on this ad hoc committee and gathering information and will there be a feasible report that will come in to council, um, and looking to a possible budget for start up costs that may need to be included. So when when do you anticipate hearing from an ad hoc committee to have something for council and the public to react to?

Brian E. Lewis

It depends, Tricia, on there's two factors when the ad hoc committee goes forward, and currently we're on the path of probably about three months more. It has been pretty aggressive and, uh, but, you know, if we need to take longer, we will take longer. Um, if, you know, the first step, uh, the first step, we had to decide if there was interest, and the consensus was that there was interest. So we had to decide, uh, we had to determine what other municipalities, uh, to bring people in, get people from other municipalities to find out, um, how happy they were with it, if they were having problems. Uh, that was, um, uh, we did all that, we brought people in and then, um, with that, uh, body, then we then we, uh, if we moved to the next step, uh, because then we needed people sitting on an ad hoc committee to do work, work on drafting, draft that legislation, put the package together, and then so forth. The second step is, uh, is figuring out, um, what the jurisdiction would look like, how it would benefit the people of the city as well as the city itself. And then, uh, after that, uh, comes, uh, other steps that involves the community. So that will be the third meeting, uh, like how, uh, like how you wanted to form, uh, focus group, or town hall meeting, uh, and, you know, listen to people. And then it will be prepared to be, um, uh, council can decide whether they either want to move forward with the structure, uh, they want to abandon the structure, whatever council's pleasure is. And then council could take nine, five months, a year, two years to be able to line everything up so that they could start. I mean, that, uh, you know, because then you've got to, you know, policy, you've got to determine what needs to be changed and you have to change legislation, that passes between what we want to accomplish. Otherwise, what's the point? If if you can't get the jurisdiction, if you can't get an ordinance to become civil, if you can't, if we're not able to, uh, if you don't set it up for probation before judgment, which proposed names to be, uh, so that you can get people, first-time offenders, into community service and so forth. That, and that's, you know, a little bit further down the road, and and also there's going to be certain recommendations about how to handle certain things, like, uh, with, uh, with the homeless, and curfew, and quality-of-life crimes, and civil ordinances and offenses, you know, being charged. But it's giving, giving an opportunity for citizens, some will be challenging, and some will be, you know, civil infractions and civil penalties, and some will be summonses and so forth. But you know, we want to hear, we want to listen to the public and get the public feedback as well. That's, so we're we're not talking about a building. We're not nowhere near a building. We're we're talking about a tool for, uh, helping with crime, for, uh, giving, giving people an opportunity, if we can, with certain circumstances.

Tricia K. Arndt

No, I just appreciate the clarification because I know the idea has been to people green stick for someone else to say and then legislative changes, charter changes would have to happen in this for or one, two years. It's a significant amount of options, steps forward. So thank you for that. I yield.

Brian E. Lewis

I'm sorry, did you have something?

Brian E. Lewis

It would be because while you, uh, even once we get the charter changed, the implementation still will take a lot of public hearings before it can be finally implemented. Sir?

Reginald Daniel

Hello, my name is Reginald Daniel, I live in Dover, Delaware. My concern is with the Alderman's Court and being a receiver of that. I think one of our biggest issues, uh, currently is that we are missing people, facilities, and resources to address...

Speaker

services to the school and, um, that's how I'll treat it. Just one example, I am the homeless coordinator and regularly comes to my office, who is deaf. I don't have a means of communicating with this individual. They can write somewhat, but there is nowhere that I am aware of that we have spent that money that hearing aid. We have people who came in with, who are either illiterate or they read and comprehend at a fourth grade level. Um, for people who struggle with um substance use disorder, particularly in the conjunctivals, they can't go to certain places if they can say, "Tonight, treat the patient has open wounds." We don't have open wounds care facility within the Dover area. What we are dealing with is, when it comes to addiction here, and mental health services here, it is a long-running chain of services, and we're having breakages in the links. If we could just find a way to focus on filling those gaps first and foremost, I believe that it would be a bit of a slower process, but I think we'll be more effective than older folks that can only hold so many people. What we should be doing is trying to put out those central fires that are causing the situations in the first place, that no one of us in 10,000 years will ever be able to fully un-poverty or welfare poverty or mental illness, but we can at least try to build those baseline foundational issues that are making it so prevalent in our community. And I think that is what we have to focus on, that I don't think we will be able to dig ourselves out of that through fines. I think that would be, if anything, squeezing blood from a stone. I think that we do need to address the safety and need to speed, that that should be a primary focus on giving a certain kind of a hope. I think our focus should be on building out those foundational building blocks that once the homeless and mentally ill and those suffering from addiction have a concurrent cycle of resources that they have ready access to, and when we have those in particular middle points that we focus on, just making sure first and foremost that they can get a hearing aid so they can hear what services are available, then we can really start making that ultra-change. And it's not as popular, certainly is not going to be popular with certain elements and people in our community, but I think it is the most important and most humanitarian actions. Thank you, sir.

Donyale M. Hall

Thank you, sir.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Is there anyone online? Okay. Seeing none, anybody have anything else before we call an end to the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee and turn it over to Dr. Sudler? Thank you, sir.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And now I can announce that Chairwoman Donyale Hall can get at the business of the Parks, Recreation, and Community Enhancement Committee. Floor is yours.

Donyale M. Hall

Thank you, Council President Neil. I call to order the Parks, Recreation, and Community Enhancement Committee meeting. Do I hear a motion to adopt the agenda?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury seconds.

Donyale M. Hall

It has been properly moved and seconded. Any discussion? Discussion. Discussion.

David L. Anderson

Chairwoman Hall?

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

David L. Anderson

Question. Is there any new information that's going to be presented that we haven't heard, or is this just a formality because we did not have a quorum the last time?

Donyale M. Hall

I believe we're going to have some additional information that's going to be presented this evening.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

Donyale M. Hall

Chair recognizes Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yes, because of the nature of the topic, I must recuse myself at this time like I have done in the past, so I formally recuse.

Donyale M. Hall

Is there any further discussion?

Fred A. Neil

Madam Chairman.

Donyale M. Hall

Chair recognizes Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, thank you. In addition to the packet material which is available to everyone and is quite copious, I read the minutes of the Council Committee of the Whole meeting that I missed due to a not so common cold. I will be voting to approve staff recommendations as the evidence speaks for itself: the failure to to follow federal requirements and state legislature, I mean the city ordinances, and timelines. The main concern that the crux of this is what replaces the lost spaces. I reviewed a proposal presented by Councilman Dr. Sudler, which I support and hope the members of the City Council will support in resolution. It calls for the use of the 150-bed state Morris Correctional Facility, now city empty. The mayor also mentioned the fact that the family court, which is a state property and not ours, also stands empty and could be used. We do need to resolve the problem. I think this Council is interested, is very interested in resolving the problem. And on October the 27th, as Chairman Anderson has mentioned, this is a topic that will be explored very thoroughly. So we're not ignoring the problem, we know that it exists, and we need to have replacements and something perhaps more permanent. I yield, Mr. Chair, Madam Chair.

Donyale M. Hall

Thank you, Council President. Any further discussion?

Brian E. Lewis

Madam Chair.

Donyale M. Hall

Chair recognizes Mr. Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. While I'm not at liberty to go into any great length of detail, myself and one of our local, two of our local representatives from the state legislature have been working in earnest with with the state of Delaware, and we will make a probably have a presentation to make in regard to the matter of the loss of housing for during the winter. So we are on this on this matter in earnest, and I want to thank the state legislators for facilitating a solution to this problem. I yield, Madam Chair.

Donyale M. Hall

Thank you.

Donyale M. Hall

Is there any further discussion?

Donyale M. Hall

All those in favor of adopting the agenda, please signify by saying aye.

Multiple Council Members

Aye.

Donyale M. Hall

Motion carries. Agenda is adopted.

Fred A. Neil

Next part, Councilman Boggerty, are you talking on this topic or any topic? Because she's yielded, so I'm giving you permission to discuss whatever you wish to say.

Andre M. Boggerty

Can you mute that? Okay, are you chairing or Council President? Whoever's chairing, I just want...

Fred A. Neil

Councilwoman's chairing.

Donyale M. Hall

Chair recognizes Councilman.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right, thank you. And this is no, this is not any disrespect from the work that has been done, additional information, but the truth of the matter is, I think I'm I'm I'm putting together copious notes. Information has been provided. I I'm ready to call, I'm ready to call the question to accept staff recommendations.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, well, you have to permit this person to present herself...

Donyale M. Hall

We have on the agenda, and we did approve the agenda, did I miss your...

Andre M. Boggerty

The agenda allows me to move to accept staff recommendations. I'm not changing the agenda, I'm accepting staff, I'm making a motion to accept staff recommendations to withdraw the previously approved $40,000 from the CDBG allocation for the Neighborhood Community Center renovation project and direct staff to deposit into the 2027 annual action plan process. So that's I wish to call it.

Donyale M. Hall

Is there a second to the motion?

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury seconds.

Donyale M. Hall

It has been properly moved and seconded. Is there discussion?

Donyale M. Hall

Chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Madam Chair. I would urge members to not do all this before we hear from both sides. The members of the People's Community Center are also here to bring information to address the complaint or the incomplete information, and that's why they've brought quite a bit of information. We'd like to present, I wouldn't recommend we withdraw funding from a center, so thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

I didn't put it in, they're not specific to...

Donyale M. Hall

Councilwoman Arndt, did you have any further discussion?

Tricia K. Arndt

I'd like to provide the opportunity for public comment on the issue, even though we did discuss it at great length at the prior meeting, but there's additional information that we should be hearing.

Donyale M. Hall

Councilman-at-large Boggerty has withdrawn his motion, so we will move forward with the agenda and, Ms. O'Brien, would you kindly brief us? Thank you, ma'am.

Debbie O'Brien

My name's Debbie O'Brien and I'm the Community Development Manager for the city. I first need to correct my response to a question asked by Councilman Sudler at the last meeting. The center did comply with the requirement to obtain a Phase 1 Environmental Site Assessment. With that clarified, I want to be equally clear about the scope of tonight's recommendation, which is strictly limited to whether the city should continue the environmental review process and move forward with releasing the $40,000 allocation for the workforce development renovations project. I won't express all of the other things that I had planned on doing, but for brevity, since my presentation on the 29th of September, I've identified two additional concerns: One is regarding the contractor identified in this reimbursement request. The contract is with MFI Construction Services. In an internet search, the business is not licensed in the state or with the city. It's also not a registered contractor, and the phone number has been disconnected. The other concern that I have is that the organization, People's Community Center, has now publicly stated that it does not intend to pursue the conditional use approval necessary to continue operating the overnight shelter. As a result, the shelter is not expected to operate this winter. The city has already made a substantial federal investment in renovations and shelter-related improvements at the church as part of the ARPA-funded renovations. Those improvements were connected to the intended use of the facility for shelter and services for folks experiencing homelessness. Now that the organization has stated that it doesn't intend to pursue the approval necessary to legally continue that operation, I have to ask: could the same thing happen with this $40,000 allocation? I don't believe that's a question we can simply overlook. If this were only a question of one missing document, one procurement mistake, or one administrative error, I would not be bringing this presentation forward. The city's approach has not been to simply say no. As you can see, the city has worked to find a path forward. The record demonstrates repeated communications explaining requirements, requests for additional documentation, opportunities to correct submissions, and efforts to identify eligible costs in ways that activities could continue to be supported. While we can't undo past discrepancies and deficiencies, the level of concern that remains at this stage of the process compels us to pause and consider all the information we have in front of us. I stand by my recommendation, and I'm happy to answer any questions.

Fred A. Neil

I have no questions, but I just want to say I have read you. I've read a lot! You are a very good author! Let me put it to you this way: I spent a lot of time with you over this weekend.

Debbie O'Brien

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

I yield.

Donyale M. Hall

I don't see any further questions. Thank you, Ms. O'Brien, for your presentation. The Chair will recognize Ms. Harris to come back to the Council with those missing elements.

Sue Harris

Sue Harris, coordinator for People's Community Center. First, I want to tell you, Dr. Sudler and I talked about the Morris Correctional years ago, and thrilled that that is coming in place, and I think that's one of the best ways to keep it funny. So we are in full support of that. Um, to bring up just to answer that right to get started here. The overnight shelter is the least favorite of anything that we do there. It takes up four months and it takes everything out of all of us. We do so much in the community center that is not involved with the just the specific overnight shelter. We have people, up to 100 people come in and out of our building a day from the dinners, the free store, um, the the counseling that we do, the help that we have that gets people taken into detox, um we've got showers for people and paint, we've got clothes for them, toilet trees, food. So we're working with people all day and into the evening. So the overnight piece, we are thrilled to have that take. My problem was that there wasn't going to be any other solution. And when that was going to be a problem, that's why we weren't going to be able to do it. We are equipped to do it, and if nobody else was going to step up, we had no choice. So I am thrilled, and we will do anything we can to help get a new site set up for that. So as much as I hope we recover our spent funds, I'm really here and most concerned to correct our public reputation regarding our financial responsibility. We are grateful for all the years in cooperation and collaboration we and the other churches have had in the city over the past decade. Thank you for your years of partially funding our operation with ARPA and CDBG federal pass-through funds, not city funds, ARPA and CDBG pass-through funds. Some people seem to be confused about that. We appreciate the hard work and intelligent, Mrs. O'Brien. We do wish the elected officials will allow her to do her work without the political pressure. We are committed to complying in all ways with federal and state statutes and procedures that we can work together with neighbors, businesses, and other churches and government to help get people off the streets. After review of the documents before you, our own records, and the documents sent to us in the FOIA responses, it appears that we have indeed been compliant with a few exceptions: We did fail to submit the required report as requested, the final report I handed to Mrs. O'Brien when I came in here this evening. There is no way to rectify the fact that that was not submitted in a timely manner. Our inability to access any instructions prevented prohibited proper reporting. And it wasn't until a few weeks ago that we received the blank report that was sent to us to be completed. The other issue we can't resolve is the fact that we used federal requirements for procurement, not the city's. Without any clear instructions, we defaulted to federal regulations, and that was evidently incorrect. By the time we understood the problem, it's a done deal. The city's normal procedure of only paying for grants as reimbursements and only after examining documents for compliance and consistency with the contract has ensured that you have not reimbursed us for any funds which were not determined by your staff to be appropriate, consistent with applicable statute and ordinance, and established procedures at the time. We had no reason to question our guidance. We appreciate Ms. O'Brien's painstaking review of past and present subrecipient agreements and payments, but it appears that there were a number of factual errors in the previous presentation to this body. We ask therefore that you consider only the facts at hand, not the spurious, complex inferences and intersecting motivations that sometimes cloud City Council judgment. Now onto the matter at hand: The renovations that have been completed, completed downstairs in the Neighbors in Need area, the People's Church Community Center. We have had architectural and engineering plans for a four-story building, including all phases of renovation from basement to elevator, $150,000. We've redone 6,000 square foot of new flooring, we painted all basement walls, we've renovated a fully permitted commercial kitchen to include all new NSF commercial grade appliances, shelving, and work table for $94,232 that the ARPA-1 paid for. We added three additional bathrooms, three shower rooms, three a laundry room with two sets of washer and dryer. We renovated an old janitorial work area into a secured storage room. We installed a fire suppression system, sprinkler system, throughout the full basement and paths to the outside exits on the first floor. Total cost of that was $125,000. ARPA paid $59,714 out of ARPA-1. That completed ARPA-1. New lighting around the entire building, cameras and electronic doors security. Demolition of a 125-year-old bowling alley to convert into workforce development and readiness offices. The demolition is complete. It was one heck of a job. Have you ever seen a 125-year-old bowling alley installed before power tools were invented?

Valerie Jenkins

understand the trouble we have. The construction has not been completed yet, the bowling alley renovation was a total, the old bowling alley renovation is a total of $200,000, the $40,000 that we have there is for the CDBG is now on hold.

Valerie Jenkins

We've completed an HVAC replacement building wide all four floors, a total project of $1.1 million, they will be completed this December, this year, according to the time performance sign in the contract with People's Church of Dover.

Valerie Jenkins

All ARPA contracts extend December 31st of 2026. So, our ARPA 1 contract done, the commercial kitchen and the sprinkler system, ARPA 2 $63,288 for proposed for salaries, maintenance, utility, paid for in full. We get a letter

Valerie Jenkins

from Tracey Harvey telling us how happy she is with us. They came out in uh August 7th, monitored it and their award uh our awards were shown to be in compliance. I'm very pleased with the renovations completed at the shelter to ensure the safety of the homeless. And so, both those grants completed, monitored, paid for and checked off.

Valerie Jenkins

In 2025, we get a call from the city that there's ARPA funds that another organization is not able to spend. They had it in 20 got it in '22, they couldn't spend it, they suggested we take it because we know what we're doing with our money. The city also agreed with that. So, they called and said, "Can you please take this $63,000 because we need it spent fast and we know you can do it."

Valerie Jenkins

So, we went ahead, we accepted the money, that took care of paying for salaries, cots, make bunk beds, we still have about $17,000 left that we can put into reimbursement, because again that doesn't end till December 31st of '26.

Valerie Jenkins

The C the C FY 25 CDBG $40,000 for renovations, we all know where that sits, and the $22,000 for operations is also pending.

Valerie Jenkins

So, in total, we got $277,941 in ARPA money, $62,700 in CDBG money of which 40,000 is being withheld. So, we've got about a million and a half dollar projects all told that ARPA and CDBG have donated about $340,000 for, the rest of it, majority of it has come from our pocket, our congregation. So, the idea that we did not put in our portion is extremely not true.

Valerie Jenkins

When the FY 25 CDBG award was issued and the subrecipient contract was signed, the city's Community Development Manager was Tracey Harvey. She told us that we must fulfill federal compliance standards rather than those standards if the money were from the city budget. CDBG money is federal money. The federal requirement, she said, was that the awards over the amount of $50,000 required that three bids be submitted, since our award money was only $40,000 three bids would not be required. We did nonetheless con- consult with three contractors. The first two who looked at the Becker Morgan plans

Valerie Jenkins

that we paid for in '22 chose not to bid because it was a heck of a project, so we turned to the Development Director of the Downtown Dover Partnership to ask for a recommendation. He recommended Amber Epperson of MFI Construction.

Valerie Jenkins

We signed a contract with her and made two initial payments totaling approximately $53,000. We submitted the contract and proof of payment to Mrs. O'Brien in the spring of '26 and requested reimbursement, none was made. After requesting reimbursement,

Valerie Jenkins

Mrs. O'Brien asked us to send her a letter explaining why we did not have the three bids and how we'd selected MFI. We did send such an explanation and in her timeline, Mrs. O'Brien acknowledged timely receipt of it.

Valerie Jenkins

When she and Mrs. O'Brien conducted their visit in the fall of '25, Miss Harvey explained that we would be held to the federal standards of compliance which required lead paint testing and abatement if necessary, and a tier-one environmental review, she stated that those services would be paid by the CDBG award $40,000. The work was performed in a timely fashion in November

Valerie Jenkins

and December of '25, only 2 months after the subrecipient agreement was signed. Cover letter and reimbursement requests were submitted to the city as proof of payment. The city has never acquired reimbursed to People's Community Center $17,100 for those expenditures. No bid was involved in the lead abatement.

Valerie Jenkins

The city is also obligated to reimburse People's Community Center $22,900, a portion of the $53,000 that we spent for the demolition that would take them up to the award of $40,000. The city employee who signed the award letter was satisfied, reimbursed the money spent and issued a letter in which he confirmed they were fully in compliant, thanked us for our service.

Valerie Jenkins

The HVAC renovation also cost far more than anticipated. The congregation has paid Diamond Engineering to complete the work in the amount of $1.1 million. Thus, the congregation did complete its part of the agreement to spend at least $153,978 in matching funds.

Valerie Jenkins

All these expenditures and work will be completed prior to the time of the performance date on page two of the subrecipient agreement between the City of Dover and People's Church of Dover. Not community center, Church of Dover. In '22 there was no community center. Services of the subrecipient shall start on the 27th day of April 2022 and end on the 31st day of December 2026.

Valerie Jenkins

Reports, procurement, and end of contract requirements are vital aspects of any grant. In my career, I managed 19 different federal, state, and local grants per year for 30 years worth well over $100 million. And grant applications always, without exception, include detailed instructions of what the reporting, procurement, and document retention requirements are. Most of the time it's part of the RFP, so that the potential grantees can decide if they have the capacity to fulfill these requirements before they even apply.

Valerie Jenkins

For these city-managed federal grants, I've been unable to find these instructions anywhere, certainly not attached to the application. The instructions I am able to find to understand how to manage these federal funds is on the federal CDBG website where their procurement requirements clearly state that the bid is required for any project over 50,000.

Valerie Jenkins

We obviously underst- understood that requirement because we received three bids for our kitchen project in 2022. The fact that Mrs. O'Brien uses the city procurement threshold of 10,000 should have been clearly explained and included in the instructions for reporting and procurement requirements along with the application. With no guidance available in the paperwork and online, we defaulted to the federal guidelines.

Valerie Jenkins

Yes, there are inevitable changes in timelines and specifics from the original application when you're working with competitive grants that might not be successful. There was never a change of focus of the homeless shelter operations and renovations of the space to be used for the homeless services.

Valerie Jenkins

In 2022, we were still dealing with COVID, contractors were difficult to find, delays happened regularly and prices skyrocketed, so we had to be flexible. Also in the grant world, although you might list a funding opportunity on a grant application, there is no guarantee you'll be successful. When you aren't successful, you have to be able to pivot, realign your priority, go back to your backup plan and proceed.

Valerie Jenkins

For instance, if you lose your funding for demolition but receive the funding for construction, you'll probably have to pivot and make adjustments. It doesn't change the project, but it does affect your timing and progress.

Valerie Jenkins

The hesitation and unjustified accusations caused upcoming funders to hesitate, and many denied funding that had previously been unquestioned. Because of these bogus accusations, if funders worry that the city would not allow our program to continue, why would they want to send us money? These complaints continued to grow out of control without any backed-up from the city. Even city officials said horrid, unfounded things without any evidence or investigation.

Valerie Jenkins

City officials have since admitted, none of the complaints were applicable to us. Yeah, that came from city officials to me, none of these complaints were anything we'd been doing. All this caused politicians to retreat, and as in one instance, Senator Paradee changed course and denied our homeless services grant-in-aid funding, yes they received, we were receiving our children's program funding, that we have counted on for years for operations. So to be clear, up until mid-June, we were still expecting this promised source of funding.

Valerie Jenkins

This was a source of funding that we have documented on other grants and applications as is common practice when applications are pending. It is generally asked when an application is submitted if other funding sources are submitted, pending, awarded, or received. A project timeline needs to be fairly flexible as long as you're staying within the grant period. Sometime there needs to be adjustments to the project according to the funding opportunities that are successful. Sometimes you find out that you need environmental studies done and that a portion of your award has to go towards that unexpected expense, and you then have to make adjustments in the budget and the timeline.

Valerie Jenkins

These are the sort of things that can change your timeline and add expenses that were not included in your original budget and adjust some expectations. But one thing never changed, is the focus and the objectives that we are trying to meet with this proposal.

Valerie Jenkins

Meeting the CDBG objectives is not of any concern either as was mentioned many times in this attempt to find issues. Uh the operations grant complies with 570.208(a)(2)(i)(A) and 570.201(e), and the renovations grant complies with site 570.208(a)(1)(i)(c) and 570.201(c). These objectives are thoroughly met with all aspects of our projects.

Valerie Jenkins

So, in summary, the 2022 agreement was made with the church, not the community center. It is not appropriate to deny promised funding to one corporation because of a claim of noncompliance related to another corporation. The city's representatives mailed us a letter in '23 in which she states that our contractual obligations were met and the agreement is now fulfilled. The church did, in fact, spend a million dollars more than it was required to spend according to the subrecipient agreement in facility renovation.

Valerie Jenkins

City, therefore, has no justification to use this funding cycle's performance as an excuse to deny its contractual obligations to the community center under its 2025 agreement. I'm happy to take some questions and I have some papers to hand out to everyone.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you for your presentation Ms. Aris. Um we'll turn it around to councilwoman Arndt. Thank you uh

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you, Ms. Aris. Um, I just want to clarify a few things. I think there's been a lot of misunderstanding on both sides and uh I think we can do a better job of learning from past mistakes and making sure that we have those open lines of communication. Um,

Tricia K. Arndt

in March, when we reviewed a proposal for 30 $36,000 for the workforce development program, um as you know, we we denied that application, there was a lot of angst and anger and uh press coverage that I thought was erroneous. Um when I voted in the negative to to deny that application, it was based on the merits of the application. I did not feel that the workforce development program demonstrated sustainability over time, um the way it was uh proposed, most of the funding seemed to be coming from the city. It wasn't demonstrated where the other funds were coming, um

Tricia K. Arndt

typically with issuance of a grant, I'm not comfortable with issuing seed money for a program without understanding how the program's going to to you know uh I'm more comfortable with issuing money for a capital improvement, um that you can see those receipts and and and moves forward. So just to clarify, um my decision on that was based on the grant application,

Tricia K. Arndt

not in any way, shape, or form on the performance, or the the issues, or concerns about about the homeless shelter. I have not wanted to see the shelter closed. I think that the services they provide, and the form is is necessary.

Tricia K. Arndt

Um I understand the community's complaints. Um certainly, we would like to see the shelter operate in a way that it is peacefully within the neighborhood, and the the operations are cohesive, and the neighbors are happy. I'm surprised to hear you say that

Tricia K. Arndt

you do not want to operate the shelter, and that you were okay with not pursuing the conditional use to continue to open the shelter. Could you because last night, we took a lot of heat from the public um that, you know, the city had, you know, done bad, terrible things to shut the shelter down. And it sounds like the shelter does not want to continue operating.

Tricia K. Arndt

And you had the opportunity to do the conditional use to continue those operations within that part of the process, but you chose not to. Can you expand on that?

Valerie Jenkins

I can. Sure.

Valerie Jenkins

So, because of um the original history, we know we've like places like this. And that was fine, we're happy, and everybody was happy. COVID came, every other church backed down, all of the backed down, it happened to be in our building during COVID shutdown.

Valerie Jenkins

So, we kind of, what are we going to do at this point, and we accommodated. The next year comes, none of the churches open. For the next 2 or 3 years, we just slowly kind of became the emergency shelter on our own, paying for that, with no funding at all.

Valerie Jenkins

It is not our favorite piece, it is the one piece that caused us more issues than anything. We have so much more we would like to do to get people off the streets and get and to to get give them paths into a better future. And it seems like to be constantly tangled up in this, would be throwing sandwiches at people and clothes, and just saying you know, keep it moving.

Valerie Jenkins

And that's really not where we want to be. Um we don't there should not be any more shelters established because this is just like putting chairs in the emergency room of a hospital, we need transitional housing, we need more housing for people and you know affordable housing. So um I I'm not in any way I'm I'm not a proponent for more sheltering, but the emergency sheltering in this town is you know it falls to none. You've got the women going at uh at Division Street, Maranatha, and you got us.

Valerie Jenkins

That's what the problem was. If there had been right off the get-go, hey, we got a better idea than what People's Church has. I've already met with Matt Heckles from the Sheridan. Nobody else seems to have any ingenuity to do this. I got a hold of him, him and I met. I pleaded with him. I said, "We got cots, we got bedding, I got volunteers, I'll help you get it set up."

Valerie Jenkins

This drags us down. Everybody back here, they just want the folks to have a place to go. It isn't personal to coming to us. They love everything else we do, we want to continue to do all these wonderful things, but the idea that at overnight might go somewhere else,

Valerie Jenkins

I pleaded with the Salvation Army. Senator Buckson and I tried to find to get a way to do overflow, cuz we were up to 80 people at one point. I had women in the building, and I couldn't, and so forced them to shelter them. So, we've never needed to be a shelter, I never set out to be, we never applied to be, we don't want to put in a variance because we've never had to.

Valerie Jenkins

It's part of the consolidated plan for the City of Dover. It's always been an agreement, that when there and this is all over the state, the fire marshal has a state fire marshal Code Purple directive that opens up non-conforming places for just these emergencies. It makes no sense to put the city staff, thousands of dollars in staff time,

Valerie Jenkins

the months and months it takes, and if it depends on a neighborhood public hearing, we're probably going to suffer. Uh and probably won't even be successful, for what? And then that all that talk about is changing what our um building use is, and now all of a sudden we can be a shelter. I don't want that fight.

Valerie Jenkins

I'm told, I can't tell you how many times a day somebody asked me, why can't you just be a shelter all year long? No, no, thank you, and we don't want to be permitted to be able to be. And if we go through all that process, I lose that argument too. So no, we want to be an emergency shelter if there is no other options.

Valerie Jenkins

We worked with the other options when there was some. I've gone out myself to find other options because it's overwhelming. We're only supposed to have, we've got space really for 30 guys. Never do we have less than 50 or 60. They come from the woodworks.

Valerie Jenkins

So, we uh more correctional could not be a more perfect place. We were, a couple of years ago it was going to be used for training, they wouldn't do it, I got with a couple of people related into Department of Corrections, you know, well that won't work. I hope so much. It's got rooms, kitchens, showers, everything that we would need. It's in a good location, I really hope that works.

Valerie Jenkins

But the bottom line is, we would not be able to live with ourselves if people are freezing to death on our sidewalk and we have a room to put them in, and cots and all that, so...

Enid Wallace

No, but listen, we've asked, we requested, if we see them dealing, they're not allowed in. Yes, we do feed the public, please. All right. These girls walk around with an ATM machine on their body and can do what they do 24/7, and they will die if we don't do something drastic for them. Just saying. So, I'm sorry, I interrupt.

Enid Wallace

And as far as sustainability, we did receive we have been awarded there has been a federal grant awarded to us. Because of all of the hullabaloo and then worry that we wouldn't have a place, it's pending. I'm meeting with Fred, everybody's cool, he's happy, so that money's come. We've had DuPont money come in, Welfare Foundation money come in. We're sustainable. We've got no problem with that. We've got Harold Stafford running our workforce development. He's the secretary of labor former secretary of labor for the state of Delaware. He's been on Polytech school board. I've known him for years and years, and I've got a close connection with Polytech, I worked there 30 years. We'll have a good program going. The first thing we need to do though is workforce readiness. I've done this my whole life as far as adult education, I've backed them down. Our people got to start with readiness before we get into development. We're going to make sure everybody has the documentation and and all that kind of stuff, and they've been to rehab, and detox, and whatever they need, mental health issues, to get stable enough to even begin that process, and that's all part of what we're going to do, navigation. So the sustainability, we have the 350 coming in, we've just been awarded a half a year ago that 100,000 for welfare, and we've got hopefully other things that will come back on board once the things settle down and people understand what we are doing and what we aren't doing and that we are extremely financially responsible for our funds. When I retired 6 years ago, I was not going to touch another calculator or a spreadsheet. I've lived that was my life for 30 years. I'm vice president of Code Purple as well. I'm very sorry that I made that demand to myself, because I now am working with a second organization that I do believe that my skills in bookkeeping and accounting would have paid off. Hi. So that will change, and I will be responsible for maintaining the management of all of our grants. You'll do the writing, right Susan? Call Mac.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank thank you for Thank you for that information. I appreciate that. I hope moving forward we can change the narrative that the city is trying to shut down the shelter, that the city doesn't care, working together to find a better solution.

Enid Wallace

Us too. We want to partner. We always have. The last thing that helps anybody in these streets is to find the people that they depend on fighting amongst themselves. I mean they got no hope then. They're like well, if they can't even get along and work together, then what do we have? So please, and I apologize for anything I might have said that have caused more disruption than it should, but I think that happened on both sides. Things got out of here that got all stirred up, and things got out of us that got all stirred up, and now it's just a whole big water stirred up pot.

Tricia K. Arndt

Like I said, I think there's been misunderstandings and misinformation on both sides. I think moving forward making sure that we can correct those misconceptions and work together. I I am leaning towards giving grace and allowing this funding to move forward. I know that's probably not where my colleagues are are going, but the work has already been done and I think moving forward, should you apply for any other funding from the city, unless it's settled and should funds be granted for any grant in the future, then I think you would be well aware of what those requirements are and to make sure that every I is dotted and every T is crossed.

Enid Wallace

Oh, yes. On behalf of everyone.

Tricia K. Arndt

So that's my thoughts, that's where I'm leaning. I lean.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Chair recognizes Mr. Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Yes, sir, thank you. I'd like to ask Ms. Wallace to stay put. Ms. O'Brien, you are relatively new on the job, however, I'm going to ask you a hard question. You followed the instructions that you were trained to do and the instructions that were before you to provide for reimbursement for these grants?

Tracey O'Brien

Yes.

Brian E. Lewis

The second question: did any member of council or myself influence you anyway or the other in your presentation or your decision to bring this to council?

Tracey O'Brien

No.

Brian E. Lewis

I yield, Madam Chair.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Chair recognizes Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Madam Chair. And I want to thank everyone for the explanation. I definitely support Can you can you stay, please? Because I got a couple questions. I definitely supported Ms. O'Brien's freezing the funds until she got the information that she needed that was appropriate. Now now now we've move beyond that and the decision before us. I do not support reprogramming the money because this organization quite frankly has been one of the better ones in and what it's done for the city and in the city. And if and I have just a couple questions and a lot of them my question my colleague and friend have already asked so I'm not going to repeat her because she did them probably better than I would have. Ms. Harris, my next my third question is to the best of your knowledge are you now currently compliant with city regulations?

Enid Wallace

Yes.

David L. Anderson

Next question: now this this requirement that you that were met, were they federally compliant even if they inadvertently did not meet the city purchasing, are they federally compliant and eligible under federal guidelines for reimbursement?

Tracey O'Brien

Yes.

David L. Anderson

And that ends my Thank you. I yield.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Chair recognizes Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. I just I was remiss. I I would like to clarify - Ms. O'Brien, thank you so much for your presentation, the information that you put together. We, council, are the ones who want to hear from you how it's spent and how the money will be distributed, and I think there's absolutely no question that you've got your eyes on the needle that needs to be threaded with your program and how it should be spent. So I just wanted to tell you that you did your due diligence.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Councilwoman Hall, do you have...

Donyale M. Hall

I have one more question. Before we decide, before we go into that -

Donyale M. Hall

I'm curious, there was something that was presented by Ms. O'Brien that was troubling to me, regarding the $45,000 that doesn't seem to have gone to a credible company. Can you share that?

Enid Wallace

He's fine, he was recommended to us through Downtown Dover Partnership development director. I want to make sure I call that and make sure that we have those ducks in a row. I can't imagine she's not. She usually had worked closely with her, they're always constantly working, so I would be very surprised. Maybe there's a difference in name, maybe it's something that I think it is a confusion.

Donyale M. Hall

Would you kindly, when you leave here, could you find answers to that, council? We would be interested in knowing whether...

Enid Wallace

Absolutely. We're hoping for her to be one of the girls of that...

Donyale M. Hall

I think we would be interested in hearing your findings, and if you do, please share that with us so that we can be back on what accountability we have. Okay, thank you very much.

Enid Wallace

Thank you.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Okay. Mr. Faust is here. Mr. Faust, please come to the podium. Give us your information.

William Faust

William Faust, Dover. Just a couple of thoughts on this whole thing. Correctional center was closed by the DOC because of funding, but it was also closed by my friend who worked for the program. Building was neat, upkeep, water, heating, everything. So it may not be sweet for housing homeless community. I believe Councilman Rocha took that tour, I think department of corrections too, somebody, but it was closed because it was not in compliance with standard human living. They had rodent problems, they had water leaks, and it hadn't been in use for years so who knows how long it's going to take before we get that done. My people are divided, people from church, you know, they're going to make an allowance, they're going to make mistakes. You open Pandora's box, you can't get it closed now. Another person comes down the line, made the same, you'll be obligated to give them by the hour. It's not a dig at the church, I'm saying you make an allowance, make an allowance for anybody else, does that make an allowance for anyone else to do that? Did we have patience for three? Which one had made a mistake, and didn't follow in time? So be careful what you're doing. I support the people's church for trying to take care of our our most vulnerable people. I'm not disputing that, but be careful. You represent us, and this is not private donations, this is city money, so there's always checks and balances. So it's not a dig, just saying if you're going to make an allowance, you're going to make an allowance for individual one, two, A, B, C, whatever it may be in the future. Thank you for your time.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Thank you.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Chair recognizes Councilwoman Hall.

Donyale M. Hall

Thank you, Madam Chair. I have a question for you, if you don't mind. And the question would be, the city, at that meeting that we had with the People's Church, we had a timber this evening. And the timber that I got back then is that we have an accord that we're going to adhere to, and we don't allow them in. I understand that you have hiccups, and and everybody does. And when we make, and when when there's an issue, then I am in agreement with Mr. Faust said, with, you know, when you open up Pandora's box, you also have to think about, we're being good stewards of the money that's already been spent. So if we've already spent and invested that money into People's Church and they're already servicing that house in an emergency capacity, then is it it's not going to change. That number is still going to be there whether they're open or not, and if we don't have the ability to get another facility open, I mean, we have We're talking about a month and a month and a week, maybe, you know, less than that, dependent on, you know, how early winter decides to to appear. Does it make sense to take the money that we've already invested, and that over, whether it be city or whether it be federal, you know, whoever's, because they can't get any funding anyway. So if this funding can take care of so that we're ready to get in there, and we can just like take up old cans from the year to try to clean up, to get things and maybe to get another agency to help to keep things, to help to keep to keep things together, and then next year, you know, we can follow, maybe the previous we've spent, that's already been cared for. Can we create maybe like another agency to to, you know, maybe put their foot on the gas and give that report, or be be in communication with a person? All that making of It would make sense to me not to take us when you've already put so much money into it at this point. I mean, and that's just that's just me. I mean, am I making sense?

Donyale M. Hall

I mean, no?

Tracey O'Brien

Councilwoman Hall, we have invested $283,338 in the overnight sheltering. But to be clear, this this grant is for renovations for the workforce development program, not for the overnight shelter.

Donyale M. Hall

Okay, so the money that's being claimed for is not for the shelter?

Tracey O'Brien

It's not my understanding, correct.

Donyale M. Hall

That would that mean...

Enid Wallace

I'm only representing the workforce program...

Donyale M. Hall

Okay, okay, okay.

Tracey O'Brien

The 25,000 is renovations for adult mal - men workforce development, so that has nothing to do with the overnight shelter that went in the past. It pays for the operational fees of off and on CDBG and for operations, for water, for electric, and get some supplies for the current room. So nothing that has been paid for was not services that haven't already been performed. So there are three different buckets of money: there's capital renovation money that was the first ARPA grant, the second ARPA and the third ARPA were operational money, and this 40,000 that we're discussing now is renovation money, and there's also 22,700 of that CDBG-25 money that is pending as well.

Donyale M. Hall

Yes, so with that being said, basically, what you're telling me is that and that the people that that you've and all these are all in the in the in given together right now as is they're all in the same bucket?

Enid Wallace

It's all to serve the actual homeless. Um, the homeless they have the university and the shelter was one aspect of that umbrella. So that that that doesn't all we continue to do all of those things even when we're not overnight emergency sheltering for the four months in the winter. So that is kind of a separate thing. We get money granted for that, it's for that time period only. It doesn't take care of the operations for the whole year because we've got stuff going on in there all year long. So those are two very separate things. We applied for grants separately, um, as well as the separate grants for operations, punch list, and renovations. That's two different kinds of buckets in essence under one roof.

Donyale M. Hall

Okay, so essentially the overnight sheltering, the emergency program is not - it is not going to reopen, is that correct?

Enid Wallace

Unless the city comes to us with to continue the agreement we have been doing for the past 10 years, and there is no other options available. Um, that would be the scenario I could see us doing.

Donyale M. Hall

Okay, so the city has to pay this bill, the city has to agree, because at this point we we need to be honest, as a mentor and as a as we've we've helped this community, we've engaged the community... and there is no other shelter and the city will be forced to give you the money. That is that's the bottom line. And I don't think that's fair.

Enid Wallace

That's definitely not our question. We are a walk-in, we are a walk-through shelter... but we will not jeopardize our business license, we will not jeopardize our occupancy certificate, we have four workforce living bodies that make use of our building along with a wonderful after-school program. There's nothing we will do that will jeopardize that. So shy of an agreement with the city, we will not take any chances.

Frank Paul

something coming, a shelter, hopefully. I'm hoping that the city if they're not going to find one help in any way they can do that. Guys from the church said maybe we might be able to open in the fall. There was an in. They want to know so you guys can pursue that. Um, but yeah, if there's not another option, we what are we going to do? I'm not coming to to work at a thrift store and have to step over frozen bodies next to the sidewalk. We will have to do something, and I hope that the city find something or an alternative, and if that doesn't happen, the off-ramp is an agreement the same way we've done it for the past ten years. Thank you for your time.

Robin R. Christiansen

Thank you, Mr. Paul. Frank Paul.

Tricia K. Arndt

Please state your name for the record.

Bonnie

Hi, my name is Bonnie. I live in the Dover area. I don't know nothing about the People's Church. I have been learning all the good things that the People's Church has done for the homeless people. So in my opinion, I listened to Mr. Paul behind us. If his building is that bad and they don't want to spend all this money to open another building, what in the budget can you work out to get to the People's or to keep the church open? Cause I know for a fact last year there was three people that died in the city of Dover, and it had nothing to do with drugs, they froze to death.

Bonnie

My son used to be homeless for two years. He slept on the streets, in the streets, in the woods. We finally got him out of the woods and got him straight, but the thing of it is sending these people out on the street in the middle of winter, and just to let Ms. Paul know, next week it's supposed to be down in the 20s. So when these people out here sleeping in the street, we're sleeping in a bed. There's got to be a way to keep this People's Church open. If you can come up with the funding to pay for something that we don't need, why can't you come up with the funding to keep this church open for these people? Like I said, I don't know the People's Church. I don't live on that side of the area, I live on the north side, but I will say this, it's wrong to see these people sleep out on the street and only get a sandwich and a hot bowl of cereal and send them out into the cold. That's just not fair. I believe I think you guys could come up with a better way and squeeze that budget money cause you squeezed it before to give to the People's Church. That's all I have to say.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you, Ms. Bonnie.

Bonnie

Whatever. Give them the money.

Tricia K. Arndt

Are there any other discussions?

Tricia K. Arndt

Chair will entertain a motion for the staff recommendation.

Fred A. Neil

Move to accept staff recommendations. They would deny the funds to remove or or retract the funds.

Brian E. Lewis

Lewis second.

Tricia K. Arndt

It has been properly moved and seconded. Is there any further discussion on the motion? Is this a roll call vote, Clerk?

City Clerk

Yes, ma'am.

Tricia K. Arndt

Recording clerk, please call the roll.

City Clerk

Sure. Mr. Boggerty?

Andre M. Boggerty

As previously stated, yea.

City Clerk

Mr. Anderson?

David L. Anderson

No, for reasons stated.

City Clerk

Dr. Pillsbury?

Julia M. Pillsbury

I'm terribly undecided, to be honest. I'll pass. Abstain.

City Clerk

Miss Arndt?

Tricia K. Arndt

No.

City Clerk

Mr. Rocha is gone. Mr. Lewis?

Brian E. Lewis

Yes.

City Clerk

Council President Neil?

Fred A. Neil

Yes. And the reason for it is it's just not the church. Basically, people who are in the area have come to us because of what has occurred in the area. And it's what has drawn, and I think the evidence is very clear in terms of both the police reports and the EMT reports of what has occurred. So it's not what's in the building, it's what the building basically attracts. And for that reason, I'm saying yes.

City Clerk

Miss Hall?

Donyale M. Hall

I'm terribly torn, um, with this. I I agree with Miss Arndt that there are, um, some some misgivings on both sides of this conversation. Um, I also, um, am greatly troubled by the misappropriation of the moneys. I do want to, um, understand better, um, what happened to that money. Um, but, uh, I do also agree with Ms. Paul that, um, we have invested heavily into the into the center at this point and that, um, this would be, um, a travesty for that not to be finished. And so for those reasons, I'm going to vote no.

City Clerk

Three yes, three no's, and a one abstention.

Fred A. Neil

So there's no motion, no action.

City Clerk

Motion fails.

Fred A. Neil

Nothing passes.

Tricia K. Arndt

The motion fails.

Fred A. Neil

The motion fails.