Transcript: Council Committee of the Whole Meeting
Tuesday, November 25, 2025
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Showing 1458 of 1458 statements
Fred A. Neil
I will now call to order this Council Committee of the Whole meeting of Tuesday, November 28th, 2023. I'd like to remind the public that public comments are welcome on any item that will be permitted at the appropriate time. You have before you this evening's agenda. I will entertain a motion for its adoption.
Play from 00:02Fred A. Neil
It's been moved and seconded. Any questions? If not, all in favor please say aye.
Play from 00:26Fred A. Neil
First on the agenda, we will have council reports, and we will first start with the First District, and Dr. Pillsbury and Mr. Rocha.
Play from 00:46Julia M. Pillsbury
Thank you very much. Um, the last month has been a little bit rough for me, but I did attend the Veterans Day event, which was um really lovely, and today I served lunch at the Salvation Army. Thank you, that's it.
Play from 00:56Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yeah, home resting in the house so far. I coughing up a storm, but I feel free to be back on the stretch. So uh I don't have anything to report at this...
Play from 01:26Fred A. Neil
Miss Hall is not here. Mr. Lewis? Mr. Lewis is not here. Third District: Miss Arndt.
Play from 01:55Tricia K. Arndt
Thank you, Council President. I'll be submitting my comments in writing to the clerk's office to include in the um the minutes the next time around. Thank you.
Play from 02:02David L. Anderson
Thank you, Mr. President. We've been uh pretty busy in in the Fourth District. And uh one with uh we've had several meetings with uh constituents, uh a lot of them regarding problems with crime. Uh we there was a uh Neighborhood Watch meeting. There was there were also separate meetings with different constituents, uh some of which uh I want to thank you, Council President, and and uh Councilwoman Hall for also participating in. Uh we've been uh also looking at uh some of the issues. We had a very positive uh uh uh meeting with at the National League of Cities, which uh uh you'll be seeing some good information uh from that. Uh we've already dealt with some, but you'll be seeing good information from that
Play from 02:15Brian E. Lewis
that in the next month or two, um, if uh some of that is uh developed. I yield, Mr. President.
Play from 03:16Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Council President Neil, for recognizing me and and happy birthday. Um, in the Fourth District, over there near Lincoln Street, there's been some additional dumping that we received a report recently about some additional dumping uh near where Ms. Belinda Mayne lives. Also on Conwell Street, there's still some overgrowth um where the utility um, I want to say the utility or Comcast uh wires um on Conwell Street near Ms. Heath, Mr. and Mrs. Heath um unit on Conwell Street, sits off to the back. Still needs to be um addressed. And also some speeding issues on College Road. Uh we've had some concerns about individuals like somewhat like drag racing or speeding on College Road. In addition to uh Salisbury Road, how it's so backed up on Salisbury Road between 2:00 and 6:00 or 2:00 and 5:00 uh p.m. At this present moment, that would conclude my report. Additional information is forthcoming. I yield.
Play from 03:27Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you, Council President, and I echo um happy 29th birthday to you as well. Um, I um I am in I am meeting with and I've met with the Boys and Girls Club uh regarding their their new site. I have follow-up meetings to make sure that um that we that we're making it accessible for our youth where they're building it at. So I'm going to be working with the Boys and Girls Club to make sure that um that unlike some of the other locations, that we build in a transportation piece and effective marketing to assist uh individuals for um the youth for going out. Um, I reviewed the plans. It's a beautiful building. Um, it's going to be a sports EA, like the EA gaming area, sports. It's going to have a media component to for music and focus on the arts. If anybody knows, that's one of my push to help individuals therapy through through music, et cetera. Then there additionally there's going to be of, of course, some sports um built into it. So stay tuned for more information on that. I had the distinct pleasure of representing the City of Dover on at a panel at Delaware State University with um our college students discussing the uh what what does it look like for government on a local level? I was able to serve on that panel with uh the councilwoman-at-large from Wilmington. So, we we were able to have some um dialogue about how they're addressing issues and and and um and they within their council as well. So it was good, but the young individuals, I want to say it could have been approximately 60 young individuals, they asked some very
Play from 05:17Andre M. Boggerty
great, good questions and we talked about the importance of voting in your local elections, but at the at the same time making sure they understanding issues and just not partisan. So it was a it was a good dialogue. I yield.
Play from 06:33Fred A. Neil
My report. Uh, I attended a peace pole uh uh dedication at uh Congregation Beth Sholom and the uh members of the Universalist Church. Uh, I attended the Silver Lake Commission presentation on the St. Jones River at City Hall. I attended the Habitat Charity Ball at Bally's. I attended uh a meeting at the Levy Court uh sponsored by Senator Buckson and Representative Carry Evelyn-Harris regarding manufactured homes and helps that help that could be provided to them. I met with the mayor and the police chief over certain matters. I also attended the November library uh board meeting and uh I also attended uh a meeting at um for with a group trying to bring together the Dover Ice Rink and Civic Center at Schutte Park along with Council Councilman Rocha and Councilwoman Pillsbury. I attended the Wild Meadows Homeowners Association meeting. I attended the uh dedication of a Habitat home at 145 Ann Street. I responded by email and telephone to many on the proposed of safety traffic and safety ordinance that we'll be talking about this evening. Uh, I also submitted a staff review amendment on manufactured homes for Chapter 66 requiring the titles of these homes to be shown to the city before a license for the home was brought in and into the community and license was granted. Used homes have been brought in to leased-land into leased-land communities and sold without the title as required by state law, making them impossible to sell legally by the new owner. Thanks to code inspector Kopp for his changes which have been adopted, and it will be forthcoming uh very shortly uh in a future meeting. I met with several times with Councilman Anderson and Councilwoman Hall with a group of concerned citizens over the inability to control the acts of individuals who commit acts against society, but who are not held accountable and may not be able to actually do uh help themselves. I provided a letter of congratulations to Zeta Phi Beta on their 50th anniversary. I referred Dover resident James Branch offer regarding services regarding water pollution to staff. I believe his concerns were more appropriate for state consideration. I believe we all received a petition for sidewalk repair in the heart of the Dover Historic District. Public Works uh Director Novak is seeking funds for a contractor to do that work. Uh, that is my report. I now turn this meeting to uh Chairman Andre Boggerty to conduct the business of the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee.
Play from 06:48Andre M. Boggerty
The Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee into session, who's is our citizen take uh their spots. Give them a few seconds.
Play from 09:39Roy Sudler, Jr.
All right, welcome to both of you. Um, move for the adoption of the agenda?
Play from 09:49Roy Sudler, Jr.
It's been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Play from 10:00Roy Sudler, Jr.
Um, I'm going to call, the first item on the agenda is the quarterly briefing of on Dover/Kent County Metropolitan Planning Organization, the MPO as we know it. I'm going to call the Executive Director, Marilyn Smith, Director of Dover/Kent MPO.
Play from 10:13Marilyn Smith
Thank you very much. I appreciate the opportunity to come and give you an update.
Play from 10:35Marilyn Smith
Good evening. Uh, so you all have the very tiny, tiny PDF. Uh, if anyone wants a larger copy to follow along, I can give you one.
Play from 10:40Marilyn Smith
Okay, so that makes it a little easier. And then you also have the giant-sized version if you want to follow along on the giant-sized version. Uh, so this is, you all, I've come before and I usually have slides, and I decided, um, we're going to do this in kind of a newsletter today. So that's what you have, is you have the newsletter update, and I want to just highlight a few things. So first of all, um, introductions and purpose. Um, Mayor Christiansen is not here tonight, but I think all of you know that Mayor Christiansen is the chair of the MPO Council. We appreciate him, um, and his representation of the city and his, um, never failing support of the MPO and what we do. Um, secondly, I do want to recognize Jason Lyon. Um, Jason Lyon sits on our Technical Advisory Committee, and again, um, the Technical Advisory Committee is just that, it's technical, and we really appreciate that Jason comes to the meetings, he's prepared, he absolutely gives us a lot of, um, his professional expertise, and he really represents the city well on the TAC. Um, the TAC does have a spot for someone from the planning department, and that spot is currently not being filled. Um, the last thing is that a request that came to me in preparation for this meeting is from Councilman Rocha, and you can see that he, um, asked that, uh, when we do our next plan of work, he recommended that a metropolitan traffic study for the city of Dover and the surrounding area be conducted. And if a recent study has been conducted by DelDOT or the MPO, can we have someone come and brief us as to results so our constituents can be properly informed? That's why you have me. I'm the someone to come and brief you on all of these things that have been done in the city of Dover in the last five years. Um, now, full disclosure, we don't have time, and you have a full agenda, for me to take you through every one of those things. Um, but what I will offer to you is that if you want a workshop where we go a deep dive into every single one of those things, you are more than
Play from 11:33Marilyn Smith
welcome. We will set that up and you can come to our office. We have all the boards, we have all the all the slides, all the documents, and we'd be very happy to take you through any and all of those projects if you'd like to talk about them in detail.
Play from 13:06Marilyn Smith
Um, but I'm going to just highlight a few things for you and then um certainly be available for your questions.
Play from 13:16Marilyn Smith
Um, you always ask me about Garrison, so the Garrison Oak project, um, alternatives are being drafted and a public workshop is anticipated in the summer of 2026. So that is that is the status as of November 12th.
Play from 13:20Marilyn Smith
Uh, we did complete a Kent County Comprehensive Safety Action Plan. Uh, we identified a high injury network. The bulk of that high injury network is in the city of Dover, along US 13. So there are 29 intersections and 24 corridors that are identified in Dover as high injury.
Play from 13:32Marilyn Smith
Um, what that means is a high incidence of fatalities or serious injuries that are concentrated over a short period of time. So the MPO um, applied for continuing a comprehensive study to do US 13 corridor focusing on that those uh, specific pieces in the high injury network.
Play from 13:46Marilyn Smith
Um, we're waiting, but we all know kind of the status of the federal situation at this moment. Um, I just need to tell you the city declined to be the applicant, so we, uh the MPO applied on the city's behalf. The city declined to be the applicant.
Play from 14:21Marilyn Smith
Um, we, every single month, we make uh, we have a staff person who attends the DAC, your Development Coordination Committee, and we provide advisory briefing.
Play from 14:34Marilyn Smith
Um, it's not our job to look at your site the proposed site plans, we don't do that. We look at things relative to their transportation impact. Uh, we want to look at existing studies, if there's transportation plans, city ordinances, the city's comprehensive plan, all of those kinds of things, and how they apply to any proposed development, and then we make recommendations as to what we think.
Play from 14:49Marilyn Smith
Um, nobody likes to hear our recommendations. Our recommendations are often ignored. Um, and and, I don't again, we're not regulatory, um, we're not an implementing agency, so all we can do is give you our very best expertise when it comes to transportation.
Play from 15:36Marilyn Smith
Um, the Planning Commission grants a lot of waivers. Again, that's outside of my purview. Um, but we're talking about sidewalks, bike racks, loading berths, truck parking, um, residential construction near the rail, entrances on US 13. A lot of those things get waivers. Again, that's outside of my purview.
Play from 15:50Marilyn Smith
Um, I do want to call to your attention that there was only one project statewide that got into the draft of DelDOT's rolling 6-year CTP. That's a project in Dover.
Play from 16:05Marilyn Smith
And I think that's really important. Only one, and that is the McKee Road/Salisbury Road corridor improvements. That's the
Play from 16:16Staff Presenter
Um, to Mr. - back to Councilman Rocha's request about a metropolitan traffic study,
Play from 16:29Staff Presenter
I just, for those of you who may not know, you have a comprehensive plan. It was adopted in January of 2020, and your comprehensive plan, Chapter 9, is the transportation chapter.
Play from 16:38Staff Presenter
The Dover, uh, chapter, uh, transportation is really great. I mean, you know, every every municipality has a transportation plan, or has a comprehensive plan, and some of them, their transportation plan is a page or two. The Dover the Dover chapter, transportation, is really good.
Play from 16:51Staff Presenter
Um, it has nine recommendations for policies on roadways and development. There's a list of prioritized projects in that plan, and many of them have been done.
Play from 17:08Staff Presenter
So, you already have a lot of really great comprehensive transportation studies, and again, a whole list over here on the right-hand side of the page - that is the right, right? [laughter]
Play from 17:18Staff Presenter
Um, I just want to remind you that the investment in doing - so so let me step back. If we, if anyone were to embark on some kind of gigantic metropolitan traffic study,
Play from 17:33Staff Presenter
that is a huge undertaking. That is a study that is would cost multi-million dollars and is more than the MPO budget.
Play from 17:51Staff Presenter
So that is not something that we can do, but in my professional opinion, that is not something that you need,
Play from 18:01Staff Presenter
um because you have so many great plans available to you now that have been done in the last 5 years and your comp plan. So you've got a lot of really great pieces.
Play from 18:09Staff Presenter
Um, I don't think you need a comprehensive traffic plan. You need to try to find a strategic way to work towards implementing a lot of pieces that you already have.
Play from 18:22Staff Presenter
The other thing I will say about traffic, um, it's not just about traffic. And and if I could - so imagine if I were to ask everybody in the room here, "How did you get here?"
Play from 18:35Staff Presenter
"Did you come in a car?" You don't have to raise your hand, but you can if you want to. [laughter]
Play from 18:50Staff Presenter
There's a whole lot going on besides just when we say traffic, cars and trucks on the road.
Play from 19:04Staff Presenter
And so, what our job really is is to figure out a way to have a connected and safe system for all those modes to live together
Play from 19:11Staff Presenter
Um, the last thing I'm going to say is call your attention to that box that says investment. These studies that are
Play from 19:32Marilyn Smith
on your page. These studies cost a little more than $1.4 million in the last 5 years, and that doesn't count the studies that DelDOT paid for directly because they already had an existing task order. So, let's just for round numbers say that that was a million and a half. The cost to the City of Dover was less than $10,000. DDP contributed $20,000, and KEP contributed $35,000 to that million and a half dollars worth of work. Again, I'm just going to leave you with the premise that you have a lot of really good transportation planning. You have a lot of really good ordinances, you have a lot of really good comprehensive plan, uh you have a lot of really good stuff. The step is to have a strategic approach to figuring out how to implement that stuff, how to start making the investment, and how to implement those things. Um I'm sure you've all heard that that cliche about death by a thousand cuts, right? Well, I think we have to put a more positive spin on that cuz that's not a pleasant thing, but I think we need to think about um when we're thinking say for example, the downtown, transforming downtown Dover. Um it's about walkable, dense, economic development and all those things that we want.
Play from 19:39Marilyn Smith
Okay, so if we want to get to trans to to that vision of transforming downtown Dover, it's getting there by um instead of death by a thousand cuts, it's a thousand little opportunities. It's a thousand little opportunities. It's 500 ft of sidewalk there, it's a crosswalk here, it's a better entrance there, it's no, you don't get two entrances on 13 there, it's all those tiny things. When we have the opportunity to make a transportation-related decision, that then we look back and say, 'Oh, it wasn't one gigantic silver bullet. It was a thousand little things.' And I'm going to stop there and see if you have any questions.
Play from 21:14Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. Um I understand that uh Councilman Rocha has a question, and then immediately after Councilman Rocha, I see Councilwoman Arndt has a question. So, Councilman Rocha?
Play from 22:11Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yes, um thank you, Mr. Chair. Um I I just wanted to make a statement in regards that um brought up the idea of the comprehensive plan um that that originally my first statement was in reference to DelDOT. Not necessarily to call weight on the MPO. So Marilyn, I I wondered if you think that uh that I was pointing the finger at at the MPO.
Play from 22:20Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
To, you know, being in that, you know, traffic situation that I had, and I found other municipalities, I mean DelDOT can act, and they were able to, and I think there's one moving right now
Play from 22:43Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
highways if you will, to like 301 and stuff like that. Um as we grow, how do we keep up with providing relief in traffic uh on a long-term basis? Not to knock any of the work that's already been done. Um you know within the city of course, you guys have uh done you know a lot of great studies, particularly Salisbury, you know in my area, and Kenton Road, and things of that nature, but by by no means, but just something for us as a council to think about and get educated on so that we're able to make good decisions when it comes to transportation in the future, and I'm sure the MPO will help us assist with that. And I would definitely uh like to be a participant in a workshop as well. Um you know, so, you know, I um but by no means did it did it did did I intend on putting all the weight on the MPO as much as DelDOT and our colleagues on the council when it comes to thinking about you know how we are going to as our population grows uh to that effect. And with that, I yield.
Play from 22:56Tricia K. Arndt
Thank you. I just want to thank you uh, Ms. Smith, for the work that you do and and the work that your team does. I also want to thank you for applying for the safety grant on the city's be- city's behalf. So, we'll keep our our fingers crossed that that comes in for us. Um I I like this format so we can all have it at a glance, this is great, I appreciate that. Um and I think several of us will take you up on that offer for an in-depth meeting, so thank you. I yield.
Play from 24:18Fred A. Neil
Uh, thank you, sir. Um, you shot me down on the roadway at Leipsic Road, but we still have a problem because this is a season where we have Gift of Lights traveling down that area, we have uh Wreaths Across America coming in December the 11th, uh we have a announcement that was made today that there's going to be a Country Western uh concert, two days, in September of 2026. But right now, Leipsic Road is getting very, not Leipsic, but actually uh uh Persimmon Park Place Road, percent that lane needs to be resurfaced, and I have made requests to our our members of of the legislature, but it's not potholes yet, but it's going to be potholes very soon. Do you have any influence with DelDOT of saying take a look at that road before it gets so bad that cars are going to be damaged? If you can do that, mwah.
Play from 24:47Marilyn Smith
Um, what I can tell you is that there is a rolling two-year pave and rehab, and I have the list. I just, I don't I don't commit to memory what's on it, so I am happy to look and see if that road is on the list, and I am happy to share your request with the pave and rehab people.
Play from 25:49Donyale M. Hall
Thank you for recognizing me, Mr. Chair. Um, I actually wanted to um, and I see uh, Ms. Smack has her hand up over there. I actually wanted you to um bring up what you uh told us about yesterday regarding the rails and the different paths and and and that. Would you um go ahead and um express that? Thank you.
Play from 26:12Smack
Yes, I actually I actually have two questions. One is about um, and I think I got the answer from or at the state level today, but I will ask it because uh Councilwoman Hall has asked me. So, you know how in New Castle they have the rails coming down, and I actually spoke to one of your representatives at a something where they were tabling. You know how they got the fences going down to stop pedestrians from crossing the highway? Those big black fences like near the um airport on 13?
Play from 26:41Smack
There's like black fences that go all the way down almost up to when you just get on 13 where it goes down to Lesland's so that people aren't crossing the highway and getting hit.
Play from 27:14Smack
Um, I have expressed uh for the past year and a half after speaking to somebody at MPO of the of Kent County getting that. I understand we're not as big of a you know, as many lanes as they have in New Castle, but I thought fencing would help to help with some of the pedestrian um accidents that have been reported out from the past 18 months. I didn't know if that's something that is included um into what you do. My other question is um um, I'll give you a chance to answer that and then I have another question.
Play from 27:26Marilyn Smith
So, I can tell you that part of the comprehensive safety action plan is a whole series of what's called proven safety countermeasure countermeasures. And it does include the treatments that you're talking about, yes. So, basically what the process um for us is is to look at all of those places that are on the high injury network and say, okay, what's the best proven safety countermeasure for this place? And then, what are our funding opportunities to make that happen? So, if you have a specific corridor, you can scribble that down on a piece of paper for me, or you can email me and we can start to look at those corridors, specific road sections, um yeah. That that's kind of the next step once you have a countywide safety plan, yes.
Play from 28:04Smack
Well, I do appreciate that. Thank you so much, um you know. And my other question is in your uh traffic studies, have any of those studies shown an increase in pedestrian fatalities or uh major areas where pedestrians are getting hit?
Play from 28:57Marilyn Smith
Uh so yes, that's exactly what the high injury network does. So, if we were um if if if we were to pull up the um the safety action plan and you were to look at the So, on your on your
Play from 29:14Marilyn Smith
map, this super super tiny illustration. This is the high-injury network in Dover. And so, yes, this tiny illustration that is right here that you still can't see big enough. But that's exactly what it shows, is all those lines and dots are the 29 intersections and the 24 corridors in Dover that have the highest incident of fatality or serious injuries during the period of the crash data, which I think is 6 years. I don't know it right off the top of my head, but that's exactly what the high injury network is.
Play from 29:29Marilyn Smith
You know how to reach me, and so our team is happy to walk you through that.
Play from 30:19David L. Anderson
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I uh first of all, Ms. Smith, thank you so much for coming. It's always uh good to have you here.
Play from 30:32David L. Anderson
I have a question regarding the um the Dover uh air cargo freight uh study which was a a fine study in 2021. Um, now that we have the new joint use agreement, I was just curious uh do you think it would be useful for that to get a little bit of an update?
Play from 30:43Marilyn Smith
Um, I have talked to Linda Parkowski at KEP about that. And basically, we, the MPO, we're waiting until between the city and the county you all decide which parcels are going to be kind of prioritized for development first, um because that really, yes, there needs to be a refresh, um an update, but we don't exactly know where to focus until we know where that prioritized development will be. So yeah, it's on my radar, but it's not quite ready yet.
Play from 31:09David L. Anderson
Understood. I I thank you for that. And um if you were looking at uh if and also back uh in 2022 was the uh East-West Freight Routes Phase uh 1. Um is there any update on...
Play from 31:46Marilyn Smith
Yes. Um so the very top one on your list is um we just finished a couple months ago the phase two. And so yes, the phase two is done. It includes um off the top of my head I think there are three specific routes in Dover. One is a new connection, one is a build-out of the uh the interchange at North Little Creek- South Little Creek Road. Um see, this is the deep dive we need in workshop, you're testing me. But yes, there are recommendations, and there are specific recommendations for Dover. Yes.
Play from 32:04Marilyn Smith
Yes, but remember how the process, um, little MPO 101, once we have studies finished and we have project recommendations, we put them into our short, mid, and long-term plan. And then every two years, that's how we try to get projects into the CTP. So, those recommendations will be part of our advocacy for the next round of projects.
Play from 32:50Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Chairman Boggerty, for recognizing me. Uh, just two questions. In regards to the McKee Road corridor improvements, in your view and expertise, what was so significant about the McKee Road and corridor uh improvements that made it stand out and be, you know, focused on uh the most out of outside of all the other projects in which you um brought forth?
Play from 33:27Marilyn Smith
Uh, I don't know the answer to how it compared against projects that were submitted in New Castle or Sussex. I don't know, um, because I'm not part of that process. I know that what made it important, like number one on our project list, was we knew it was a high priority for the city. We've talked about this for a long time. Um, one of the ways, when we do a prioritization process, it includes a bunch of elements. Some of it is traffic, some of it is safety, some of it is back to, you know, where where we're seeing high injury network,
Play from 34:33Marilyn Smith
some of it is economic development. There are six factors, so I'm missing a couple, and they're all weighted. And it scored really high. I mean, they it scored very high compared to other projects. Um, I will just say from our perspective, when we when DelDOT was saying, you know, it's going to be really hard to get a project in, so I we just went into wheel and deal mode, honestly. And I said, 'Okay, then we're going to go back and look at the projects that are in the CTP now, and see if there's any that we would recommend you take out, and we'll trade you.' And that's what they did.
Play from 35:07Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
mean that they're looking at possibly putting or improving um more roads next to the railroad system or can you elaborate on that to give me some clarity?
Play from 36:02Roy Sudler, Jr.
So, in other words, would it be safe to say that that area during the time it was considered was con- was deemed maybe high density in traffic and possibly a a traffic stressor, because that's what we're seeing currently right now? Um, we can say a lot of it may be contributed to the uh infrastructure improvements on Kenton Road, or just the fact that the population of the city is increasing and the road infrastructure may need to be expanded. Um, if the road infrastructure needs to be expanded, has the MPO uh thought about in what way, like maybe bypass or I noticed that we have something in regards to the rail corridor land use. So, I'm thinking, which is my which leads to my second question. So, I'm thinking the rail corridor land use, um, does that mean
Play from 36:02Presenter
Sure. So, just back to McKee, I mean, the the fact, like I said, there are about six determining factors that contribute to that overall um score of prioritization. So, all those things you talked about are included, but they're weighted. So, and again, that's a deep dive that I don't want to get into those numbers off the top of my head cause I just don't remember. Um rail corridor land use. Um the rail corridor land use study says we have a rail corridor that runs up and down the peninsula, and there are some uses that are compatible with a rail corridor that are near the rail corridor. There are some uses that are not. Um building houses 25 ft or next to the rail corridor, not a compatible use. Not a good idea. Um we encourage any municipality that has parcels zoned residential next to the rail to really rethink that, cause that's not a compatible use. So, it doesn't have to do with roads. It has to do with preserving that corridor for rail-supported industry and just supporting the rail itself as a as an economic development use, and not doing things in that corridor that impedes the use of the rail as a railroad.
Play from 36:10Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay, would a would a road system um next to the rail, would that impede? I know you said um building housing 25 ft would not be compatible, but what about a road itself leading to um some residential area that is beyond 25 ft?
Play from 37:29Presenter
Uh I would have to see the exact place, because generally speaking, um Federal Railroad and DelDOT, they don't want to add a bunch of new crossings. So, if you have to add a crossing to get to, say, a residential community, they're not going to look very favorable about that, you know. So, I think we'd have to talk about specific places, and that would be a more productive conversation.
Play from 38:09Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay, I'll I'll have that conversation with you, too. Thank you for your feedback, and thank you for your presentation. I yield, Chairman Boggerty. Thank you.
Play from 38:25Roy Sudler, Jr.
With that said, I ask if it is it possible for uh we take up take you up on that offer if if the city clerk and council president agrees that a a a workshop is planned, but could we make it hybrid um if possible if that's easier, so individuals could attend who may not who may or may not be able to get off work uh during the day and/or maybe away? And if we can do that somewhere right after the be- right at the top of the year, so January, February sometime?
Play from 38:32Presenter
just, we would do a workshop at night to accommodate all of you. We do lots of stuff at night, so that's not a problem. Um, the only thing I would say about hybrid is that we have lots of big boards like this.
Play from 39:19Presenter
that you might want to get your hands on. The hybrid environment doesn't really allow you to do that very well. We offer everything in hybrid, it's just a real limiting factor if you really want to get your hands dirty.
Play from 39:31Roy Sudler, Jr.
Well, well with that said, with that said I'll pivot and ask the city clerk and the city clerk's office to send a, like you typically do, a survey out to see when, um, um, those who would like to attend are available. And, um, something like this I believe if it's going to be in the evening could be open to to the public,
Play from 39:41Smyk
While I got you here, you know I always come with a lot of questions. I do apologize. But, um, when it comes to reducing, uh, pedestrian deaths, what kind of recommendations, um, should the city consider investing in when it comes to that?
Play from 40:23Presenter
Um, so I'm going to go off the top of my head here, but this is not comprehensive. So, again, we need to go back to the So, one of one of the things, crosswalks. We have a lot a lot of those kinds of incidents happen in mid-block crossing, right? So, crosswalks, a good thing. Lighting. Channelization, figuring out how to get people where you want them to be and how to discourage them to not So, you were mentioning fencing so that people couldn't run across a place, some things like that. Those are things, um, we're spending a lot of time looking at places for those, uh, rapid-flashing beacons. Are there places where those would be helpful?
Play from 40:33Presenter
So, say you build a building, and you we're we're looking There's one on the DAC tomorrow morning. So, build the building, and then you have parking around the building, but you just have this kind of open flow of cars. People don't know where to walk, cars don't know where to look for people walking, because there aren't designated curbs, there aren't designated channelization, there there aren't a bunch of crosswalks for people to know where they're supposed to go. So, you just get out of your car and you just, you know, free-wheeling, and so you're wandering in the path of cars, and cars are not looking for you. So, things like that, really thinking about, you know, what does it look like to be walking, and how how do I as a walker need to be seeing cars and how can cars be seeing me?
Play from 41:12Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Chairman Boggerty. In regards to pedestrians and walking, have you had any discussion in regards to individuals on the median?
Play from 42:37Female Speaker
Um, so first of all, it's not my place to speak for DelDOT. Having said that, we've had some conversations. So, the medians are there for a reason. The medians are there to channelize traffic. Sometimes the medians are there to be the placeholder for signage. Sometimes the medians are there because you're running utilities underneath them. There's a variety of reasons why medians are there. And they're not going to not be there. So, the the median, sometimes the median is there, so say you have, let's think about US 13 in places where you have three lanes in each direction or you have two lanes and you have two turning lanes, people need a refuge when they're crossing all those lanes. People need a place to be safe when they traverse all those lanes of traffic. So, there's a reason to have the median. And I'm kind of going to guess where you're going with this, um, but there's a reason to have the median. They do serve a purpose.
Play from 42:47Roy Sudler, Jr.
In your injury, um, report, do you see any cases where individuals who have been walking up and down the median have been injured?
Play from 44:21Donyale M. Hall
Thank you for recognizing me, Mr. Chairman. My question, um, deals as a spinoff from that median question. Um, when I looked in, uh, I looked it up online about, you know, those refuges that you're that you're speaking of. Um, to me, a common sense approach would be to put some signage up that says this is a clear place where that exists and it's a spot where you could have that refuge versus, you know, uh, no stopping, standing, or parking for driving. Um, is that something that is, um, in your purview to be able to look at possibly creating, um, some signage that would be clear indicators of where it's permissible for people to have that refuge? I yield.
Play from 44:37Marilyn Smith
the modern refuges that allow that space and signage that are really clear about that.
Play from 45:52Female Speaker
I'm going to say broadly, yes. Um, but it's very, so if you think about new construction, so when a road gets, um, a new alignment or if any of you have had the great opportunity to jaunt down to Camden by where our office is and the new Camden bypass is going in, um, a lot of effort is, I mean, this this bypass is being constructed under the Safe Streets, uh, guidance. So, any place where there's a pedestrian crossing, a bike ped crossing, there will be like what you're talking about, kind of that, I'll use for lack of a better word, because I'm not an engineer, modern, there will be
Play from 45:52Marilyn Smith
Now, fast- move to a different location where we're, I mean we have some older places, right? We have some older infrastructure that hasn't had a a re-do in a while, and so the median is small, it's not at the same standard. And so, do we have some work that could be done to make them better refuges? Sure. But it it some of them, I mean how long they've been on the ground, I don't I have no idea.
Play from 46:01Donyale M. Hall
I have one follow-up question, I apologize, because I did yield. Um who would be responsible for the cost of that type of signage?
Play from 46:29Marilyn Smith
Uh I would have to I would have to phone a friend on that one um because I'm just not uh very knowledgeable about which signage is the city's responsibility, which is um that's little out of my purview. I don't know.
Play from 46:41Donyale M. Hall
Could you get back with me on that if I give you my information? Thank you.
Play from 46:59Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yeah, uh is there any of Now, members of the public that Can you please approach, and you know,
Play from 47:14Speaker 4
Are you able to let us know how many um how many uh injuries are from people on foot or bicyclists? Because you said that there were an increase. So how many of those individuals were on foot, how many were bicyclists, um you know, scooters, whatever, but how we want to know you know, were there any pedestrians that made You know, and I'm just going to just say what it is, you know, do you have panhandlers, or you know, is it people that were on bikes? Can you give us that information?
Play from 47:27Marilyn Smith
Um, I can't I (cough) Pardon me, sorry. I can't off the top of my head because I just don't remember. But the data is all included in the Comprehensive Safety Action Plan. So you see that little part, that little box? Um the Comprehensive Safety Action Plan is on the Dover/Kent MPO website, and when you scroll down to the section that outlines where you see that little map, um that's where you're going to see the data analysis of all of those uh fatalities and serious injuries. I don't I I don't know them off off the top of my head.
Play from 47:58Marilyn Smith
It is in, yes. The data is listed in the Safety Action Plan, yes, ma'am.
Play from 48:40Marilyn Smith
Oh, and can I just And and the data is available at DelDOT. I mean, everybody can get the data on the DelDOT website, and DelDOT updates safety information every single week. So that data is available publicly all the time.
Play from 48:49Donyale M. Hall
that question, because I think this ordinance in itself, or what is surrounding, we need actual factual data that's dealing with the actual ordinance itself. Because we're they're concentrating on medians, panhandling, and safety. So, with that data, when we're talking about high-risk and safety, we want to know specifically how this how it, you know, how this actually, those numbers apply to this particular subject matter. That's it.
Play from 49:09MPO Representative
And that I, again, I I don't know that detail of information. I I just don't know that.
Play from 49:28Brian E. Lewis
I uh I'm looking here at the box with the map in it that you are referring to,
Play from 49:39Brian E. Lewis
and I note that it states on the um bottom um the last sentence, "City declined to apply."
Play from 49:44Brian E. Lewis
Could you explain that? Are you referring to uh or is this referring to the city of Dover?
Play from 49:50Brian E. Lewis
And if so, uh do you know why? And if that's the case, then I would assume the city of Dover would not be included. Am I correct?
Play from 50:23MPO Representative
The city of The city of Dover would not be included? I I don't understand your question.
Play from 50:32MPO Representative
So, once we did the The SS4A grant works in a in a cyclical fashion, meaning you cannot apply to complete a project, you can't apply to build something, unless you already have a Safety Action Plan that uh outlines that the project you're wanting to do is in the high-injury network. So, that's why we, the MPO, did a countywide Safety Action Plan so that any municipality that now had a location in the high-injury network could take that and apply for federal funds to implement. The city of Dover did not The city of Dover declined to apply for an implementation grant on any of those locations that were called out on the high-injury network. I'm I'm not I can't speculate as to why.
Play from 50:42Brian E. Lewis
So, I'm trying to ascertain like as far as uh safety concerns, you know, what areas in the city of Dover um has this affected, and I can't see. Is there any way you can get us a bigger map?
Play from 51:54MPO Representative
I would be happy to do that. Well, you If you have uh your phone Well, not your phone, cuz it's still pretty tiny. You can look at look at it on the on our website where the study is. You can look at that map. You can blow it up.
Play from 52:01Brian E. Lewis
And what I'm also looking And and what I'm also looking for is like a breakdown as far as safety issues when it comes to uh fatalities of, you know, people crossing the street. I mean, I'd like a breakdown of what those fatalities were. Was it that uh somebody was crossing the street and and got run over by a vehicle, or was it somebody on a bicycle, uh
Play from 52:13Brian E. Lewis
Where can I get that information? Where can I get those statistics that are specific to those fatalities? Police department don't have it.
Play from 52:25Presenter
And and that data was used to develop this map. That that is exactly the data that was used to develop this map.
Play from 52:39Presenter
But this is kind of a deep dive question that is a little better suited for a workshop. Um, but that's exactly the data that was used to develop this map.
Play from 52:50Chanda Jackson
The same subject, all right? The Kent County Comprehensive Safety Action Plan. Um, it says currently that we're awaiting for awards to be announced. Do you do you have a timeline for that?
Play from 53:17Presenter
No. All federal pretty much all federal grant funds are uh federal grant opportunities are under review. So we do not. But when we submitted the grant they said spring. So no, I don't have anything good.
Play from 53:29Chanda Jackson
Okay. I'm sorry. And so the the outcome of that is really to just do a deeper dive on this area? Is that what that is?
Play from 53:46Presenter
Yeah, the the outcome of that is if you look at, if you could see it bigger, you'll see that there's a high concentration of um high injury network on that US 13 corridor. It's a lot. And so, yes, we would do an even deeper dive almost like block by block or intersection by intersection. Mhm. That's what we would propose to do.
Play from 53:52Chanda Jackson
Okay. And then based off of that the result of the study, you would identify solutions to be able to prevent it. Okay.
Play from 54:16Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you, Dr. Jackson. Uh, the chair recognizes er Councilman Dr. Sudler.
Play from 54:25Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Chairman Boggerty, for recognizing me. Uh Chairman Boggerty, if you could uh refer this question to the city manager, um I would appreciate it. And it's basically an inquiry in regards to um why we have not uh why we decided not to apply for the grant. Um looking at the map, it appears that there are some areas near West Division Street and some areas where we where our comprehensive uh plan, I think for 2030 for DDP in in our development stage uh would be impacted, or at least have some type of impact. So, I'm just wondering um what was the reason for possibly not applying uh for grant, because I do believe that any grant money that we're eligible for that we should be uh applying for. So if if you would so kindly ask the city manager or refer the question to the city manager, I think he's here to your left.
Play from 54:31Dave Hugg
All right. Good evening, Dave Hugg, City Manager. Uh first of all, let me make a comment that if you look at where those little red dots are, the vast majority of them are on state-owned, state-maintained roads. So first of all, we would not necessarily be applying for funds to do some kind of an improvement to a state-owned, state-maintained road. Um to the extent that some of them are not um state-owned, they're city roads, we may in fact at some point wish to uh to you know uh to undertake a study. Um the second thing this these to some degree this is outside of the uh uh scope, if you will, of our ability as a city to do those kinds of studies. These are detailed engineering efforts. Uh we have a great engineering uh uh group of people, but they're back they're backed up busily doing water and wastewater and a whole bunch of other things. So uh I think I wasn't actually involved in that decision, but um I think the uh the fundamental was that that this is work that was outside of our scope and a lot of work that was to be done on on state roads which would be inappropriate for us to to be the primary uh primary initiative on. Uh and I I will check if I can if I can ask uh Jason Lyon if he know- if he remembers any- anything about that, Jay?
Play from 55:49Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. Are there any further questions for Kent MPO? That being said, thank you. Thank you for following up with us. There's no action required on this particular matter uh but the follow-up action that um that was requested regarding our training, I'll give you time to take the slides and all the things, but thank you for your your report.
Play from 57:31Kent MPO Representative
I could leave this. I could leave this with you if you want it.
Play from 58:22Roy Sudler, Jr.
Uh, item number two on the agenda is a priorita- is the prioriti- prioritization of the City of Dover State Capital Transportation Program.
Play from 58:38Dave Hugg
It's It's kind of uh uh good timing that we're that we're following the presentation from the MPO. As you know, in about this time of the year, each year, the city identifies its transportation priorities uh within a number of categories. There's economic development driven projects, there's traffic safety driven projects, there's general system operation projects. Uh and this is our opportunity to say to the MPO, you know, these are the roads, these are the segments that we really want to see uh you know, make their way through the the MPO and ultimately the DelDOT process
Play from 58:44Dave Hugg
once again this year, we have done the same process that we did every year. Uh we spent about a month, I guess, in worsh- well we spent about a month uh in discussions with the MPO, getting their input, um making sure that we referenced this list of studies that was up on the board, because many of them drive the priorities and and the recommendations we make.
Play from 59:05Dave Hugg
Um I also want to just comment that I appreciate her her uh recognition of the uh transportation plan component of our comprehensive plan. Uh we did take that very seriously a couple years ago, and we'll be looking to update the comprehensive plan in about a year and a half or two. Um and once again, we'll do the same level of deep dive into into transportation, because those things are important to us.
Play from 59:24Dave Hugg
Uh in almost every one of the studies that have been presented, somebody from the city has been involved at some point. You know, we've sat in on on the the uh air freight transportation study. We've provided information on the east-west freights freight study. We've you know, we've we've been part of all of those processes um to make sure that the City of Dover is represented.
Play from 59:44Dave Hugg
Um and and in in kind of a complex or a uh coordinated way, look at not just a study, but a group of studies. The studies that deal with freight parking and or truck parking and freight movement and all those are all an integrated part of a of a look at how do we deal with the fact that, you know, if if we're out encouraging economic development to come to Dover, we're encouraging trucks and cars and and and more things to impact on our roads. And so we need to figure out, you know, how can we pursue our economic development goals, at the same time, not end up with some of our roads looking like convoys of trucks, you know, 24/7. Um so that's a little bit of background.
Play from 1:00:32Dave Hugg
The um what you have before you is um you know, this year's version of our annual uh recommendations to the MPO. Uh with council approval, they'll go to the MPO as our official transmission of what our priorities are uh and and the rationale behind them. Um the the document uh identifies priorities by by category, so the first item in a category is the number one priority and and on down. This year, we did add a segment talking about local roads uh because they are part of of the transportation system, too. We Those are the roads that we own, we maintain, we provide the funding to fix up, we pave when they get potholes in them and and whatever. Um
Play from 1:01:36Dave Hugg
but I guess the the the point is this is this year's uh priority list. It's been vetted at least a couple of times through the MPO uh and it's uh I won't say that it's got their blessing, but it certainly reflects all of their comments and input, which which was extensive. Um and so I'm presenting it to you basically for committee and ultimately council approv-
Play from 1:02:15Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. Um I have a question. Um are some of these projects and and I know there's been a little bit of communication um regarding CTF funds, and I know Mr. Lyon was involved in that. Are some of these projects covered under the state CTF funds for the city, or is that a separate and distinct?
Play from 1:02:22David Hugg
Most of these would not be, because they're a higher level road. A lot of the CTF money that we get through our legislators are help us fix our local roads. You know, I mean we we typically, although we may have done so, but we typically don't go out and ask the state to give us CTF money to spend on a state road. That that the purpose of CTF money is to help communities maintain the hundred and some miles of road that we own in the city. Um so I guess the broad answer is yes, we spend CTF money on on a local road component. Um we use we rely on the state and the MPO to find funding for major improvements to state and and major city roads.
Play from 1:02:44Andre M. Boggerty
Okay. So, and I understand that there may be some movement on CTF funding for some of our local roads. Correct?
Play from 1:04:08David Hugg
There's uh a list of roads, I think six or so. There's a list of roads that we have submitted to um our our our council for our our legislative folks uh for the use of the CTF money in the city of Dover uh on a variety of streets that uh need rebuilding or repaving or drainage improvements, or what have you.
Play from 1:04:15Andre M. Boggerty
And once those are approved, so our constituents know that we are working and utilizing those funds, once they're approved, can we make it public that these are some of the streets and some of the areas that we work on? That's a request, I know it's separate and distinct for that, from this matter now with with the clarity.
Play from 1:04:37David Hugg
Yeah, we uh we can certainly identify those, list them in the web on the website. Uh they will also go through a public notice process when we actually, you know, go out to select either a design firm or a construction firm to work on the roads.
Play from 1:04:52Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Thank you for recognizing me. Um Mr. Hugg, um under your uh safety and capacity improvement priority, do you have any um indication as to where College Road improvements would be coming up? Because I I know we've we've had that on the list, you know, for as long as I've been on the council, and I just want to know priority-wise, do we know if DelDOT has an I know they've done some work right off of Kenton Road, but, you know, when when do you think they would incorporate the rest of the uh Right. Right. improvements on College Road on both sides with sidewalks and
Play from 1:05:14David Hugg
I don't have I don't have our document in front of me. I think I addressed some of that in the uh in the comments. College Road is one of the roads that has consistently been identified by the city as a priority. Um the priorities in that particular area is, if I remember
Play from 1:05:32Jason Lyon
remember correctly. We have Route 8, Kenton Road, then College Road. So it's should be coming, working its way through the through the process. It is in the uh the DelDOT list of projects. I don't know, off the top of my head without looking, you know, where it is in the funding cycle, but it it is a uh uh one of one of the projects that's scheduled to be done. College Road's a little bit an unusual road in that it's relatively narrow. The right-of-way is
Play from 1:05:32Jason Lyon
is not very wide uh, and there's going to be some It'll be an interesting road from a from a right-of-way and a design standpoint. It's not, you know, some of our other roads have sufficient width and alignment to, you know, to uh allow them to proceed fairly straightforwardly. College will take some extra effort.
Play from 1:05:47Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay, yeah. I I just noticed, you know, that we have pedestrians walking down College Road, particularly on Well, depending on which side Which way you're going, but on the side where there's no sidewalks,
Play from 1:05:59Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
and uh I I've been uh hoping that we would be able to get that on the, you know,
Play from 1:06:08Jason Lyon
Right, that that will be part of the College Road redevelopment or redesign. It includes sidewalks or pathways, bike lanes,
Play from 1:06:38Jason Lyon
curbs, all those things uh, as you're seeing on on Kenton Road right now, um the you know, the completion of the sidewalk network that is is along that road, the designation of bike lanes. That's all part of that uh the Safe Roads uh planning process.
Play from 1:06:43Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
So when When it When it When you have it listed like uh at the top, it says Economic Development Priorities, is that like priority number one, and then Safety
Play from 1:06:54Jason Lyon
No, they I I did not I did not prioritize the individual categories. We only prioritize the roads within the categories, um, because I think it would be that wouldn't be a wise thing to do, to say that a road that serves a particular need is more important than any other road in the city. They're important for different reasons. Um, you know, the the Garrison connector is important because it's critical for economic development. It's not necessarily critical to traffic safety and and uh bicycle
Play from 1:07:03Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay. So basically, with the exception of how you uh categorize them, the way the list is written, that that's the priorities that we're going to submit to DelDOT?
Play from 1:07:48Jason Lyon
Right, the the within each category, there's the first project is our number one priority, and then additional projects, if there are those, are generally listed as second, third, fourth uh priority. Um, but in each of the categories, traffic safety, whatever it might be.
Play from 1:07:55Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay. Yeah, okay. Yeah, that's what I thought. Okay. I thank you. Thank you for clarifying that, uh, Mr. Hugg. Uh, I yield, uh, Chairman Boggerty.
Play from 1:08:06Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman, Dr. Sudler. Anderson. The chair recognizes Councilman Dr. Anderson. Chair recognizes uh Councilman Anderson.
Play from 1:08:11David L. Anderson
Thank you. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. The I had a uh uh one
Play from 1:08:42David L. Anderson
Question about the uh, and the I see that you have on here of some issue, some updates. Uh, do you have some a little more detail on the updates with the Dover High uh, sidewalks?
Play from 1:08:48Dave Hugg
I can get you additional information on that. I mean, these are summarized based on where they are on particular funding cycles, but I know that in that particular project, a significant amount of the sidewalk on the south side from Mifflin Road has been constructed. Uh, I'm not sure where the design is on the north side. I know it's programmed, but I don't know where it is. I can find out for you, though.
Play from 1:09:00David L. Anderson
I appreciate that. Cuz we we appreciate that very much, cuz that's been a, yeah, high priority issue for years, uh, going back to when the new Dover High was constructed. And I appreciate that you're staying on it because we have to quite frankly, um, make sure that the passage is safe.
Play from 1:09:18David L. Anderson
Uh, and I see that in other areas as well. Um, thank you. I I, I yield. But if uh, unless if anybody has a question, I yield. If not, I'll make a motion. I yield to Councilman Lewis, then.
Play from 1:10:05Brian E. Lewis
Mr. Hugg, um, I have a question for you. It may be a little off topic, but it has to do with the uh, CTP projects uh, and funding. Um, the money um, that's allocated uh, for these projects, uh, is it stipulated that um, it only address road work and sidewalk work? Or could it be used for miscellaneous things? Example, cameras, signs, etc.?
Play from 1:10:16Dave Hugg
Um, generally it's limited to transportation improvements. Um, having said that, I believe some of those kinds of improvements can be included in the uh, highway safety study area, work area. Um, I know that traffic signals and those kinds of things are eligible costs. Um, I'm sure traffic cameras I think are. Um, so potentially, I don't know for sure though.
Play from 1:10:37Brian E. Lewis
Could you possibly uh, look into that and update the council uh, to include speed cameras, etc.? And um, as you're aware, I have a project in my district that's not part of the list that's currently before us, but I'm trying to address the camera issue, as we previously discussed via emails. And I know there's some issues with funding, and I was wondering if maybe we would be able to draw from one of these projects or CTF funds.
Play from 1:11:27Dave Hugg
Might be. There are a number of uh, project areas within DelDOT that are not included in this particular process. DelDOT has, as I think it was indicated, uh, you know, a kind of ongoing paving program, they have an ongoing safety program. Um, there are some things that are part of their route
Play from 1:11:51Thomas Johnson
teen. If you want, there could very well be some funding there. So I'll definitely check. I know that unfortunately there's no federal funding through Homeland Security or DEMA, that area, because we've kind of looked there, nor is there additional funding that we can put our hands on within the public safety police side.
Play from 1:12:05Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I move that we approve the staff recommendation.
Play from 1:12:34Andre M. Boggerty
It's been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye.
Play from 1:12:42Andre M. Boggerty
Now that there is no further business for the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee, I'll allow time for the committee members to move. Um, thank you for your service, and I call for the adjournment of the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee. And I yield to Council President.
Play from 1:13:02Fred A. Neil
Thank you. I now recognize Chairman Gerald Rocha to conduct the business of the Utility Committee.
Play from 1:13:16Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yeah, I can do it. I I just can't see everyone's... You know, I'm navigating through the agenda, but but I just can't see if there's questions and things. I'm just not there to see if I'm missing anybody. You want me to continue?
Play from 1:13:36Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
All the, if I if I, um, please let me know if if everyone's in the, uh, in their seats. I know that, uh, Dr. Pierio-an is on online.
Play from 1:14:01Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay, I I now call the Utility Committee to order. I will entertain a motion for the agenda... or for the adoption of the agenda.
Play from 1:14:25Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay, it's been properly moved and seconded to adopt the agenda. Are there any questions or or discussion on the motion? Hearing none, all those in favor please state by saying aye.
Play from 1:14:39Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Any opposed? The ayes have it. Motion is adopt The agenda is adopted.
Play from 1:14:54Roy Sudler, Jr.
Our first, uh, item on the agenda is evaluation of bids - Security Fence Replacement for Water Treatment Plant. Our Water and Wastewater Director, uh, Jason Lyon, if you're at the podium at this time, the floor is your, sir.
Play from 1:15:01Jason Lyon
Uh, thank you, Committee Chair. Uh, good evening to all in attendance. Uh, my name is Jason Lyon,
Play from 1:15:17Jason Lyon
and Director of Water, Wastewater, and Engineering Services for the City of Dover. Before you this evening is a evaluation of bids for a project that was budgeted in the FY26 budget to upgrade security fencing at our water treatment plant facility. The security is is not up to current current standards. We had a audit done at that location, and it was deemed that a new fence would need to be re- be installed.
Play from 1:15:21Jason Lyon
We utilized the Office of Supplier Diversity to solicit from all companies that could do this sort of work. We received five bids for this work. They were opened October 21st, and we are proposing Pierce Fence Company to receive the work.
Play from 1:15:51Jason Lyon
It should be noted on the second page of your Committee Action Form, there is some notes about two team two bids that came in that were non-responsive. They did not provide the necessary documentation that would be fair for everyone to put the bid in, so they were deemed non-responsive, so they could not be awarded the bid even though their price is lower. We are still under budget on this project. We did the research on this company, found them to be adequate, and I would be happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.
Play from 1:16:15Brian E. Lewis
Thank you. Um, my question is, Mr. Lyon, is have we utilized Pierce Fencing Company in the past for city projects?
Play from 1:16:51Jason Lyon
Um, okay, that unfortunately is not a question I can answer for every department. I can say that we have used them before with the with the water department on some repairs.
Play from 1:17:00Jason Lyon
They've also been a fence company that has done numerous projects inside the city limits for private uh fence throughout the area. Um, I can't speak to any other departments, but again, we have had some experience with them, and we feel very confident with their work.
Play from 1:17:10Brian E. Lewis
My next question is, uh, the total amount that was quoted that you have uh written down here, does that include the 3% reduction? The $210,000?
Play from 1:17:27Jason Lyon
Sure. Great point. Um, yeah, they they submitted a uh local vendor preference, so their evaluated price is lower, right?
Play from 1:17:40Jason Lyon
So, they don't We don't get a discount on it. They don't get a discount on it. It's just the evaluated price. So if if someone else came in at $211,000 but was from a different county or a different state, local vendor preference would provide them the ability to be to be funded.
Play from 1:17:49Brian E. Lewis
Okay. So the $210,000 that is including the 3% reduction or it's not? That's the question.
Play from 1:18:03Brian E. Lewis
My next question is, um, and this is a matter of policy for your department or protocol, when a bidder does not provide the appropriate paperwork as deemed necessary or does not respond in a timely fashion, do you reach out to those
Play from 1:18:16Brian E. Lewis
companies and say, "Hey, look, we didn't receive your paperwork." What has been your process in the past?
Play from 1:18:38Jason Lyon
We followed the procurement policy for the City of Dover, so it's not a department-specific situation. Our policy is if we receive maybe one bid on the project, then we might reach out to them. But if we if we receive five bids on a project, it would not be equitable or fair if we didn't hold everyone to the same standard to hold to provide the information at the right date and time.
Play from 1:18:42Brian E. Lewis
Okay, so these two other companies from Pennsylvania did not have the required documentation in on a timely manner?
Play from 1:19:02Brian E. Lewis
They didn't meet the deadline. I stand corrected. And it's your specific protocol not to reach out to the companies?
Play from 1:19:10Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Lewis. Dr. Adeyemi, you're recognized. I see you have your hand up. The floor is yours now.
Play from 1:19:52Dr. Adeyemi
Thank you, Mr. Jason. Thank you, Chairman. Mr. Jason, just a quick question here. You said you have used them before, right?
Play from 1:20:01Dr. Adeyemi
Okay. On a scale of 1 to 5, with 1 being okay to 5 being satisfactory, how will you rate them on the job you used them for?
Play from 1:20:18Jason Lyon
I would have no I have no concerns with this company, so I suppose if I had to give them a rating of 1 to 5, I would say it would be a 5.
Play from 1:21:01Dr. Adeyemi
Okay. So, their quality and durability of their job can speak volume for itself, right?
Play from 1:21:09Jason Lyon
I'm sorry. I was getting misdirect... I'm really having a tough time hearing. I'm sorry.
Play from 1:21:14Dr. Adeyemi
Okay. Their quality of job and durability of the job they do can speak for itself. Is that what you're saying?
Play from 1:21:18Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Oh, okay. I hope you all can hear me pretty good. Is there any other questions for Mr. Lyon?
Play from 1:21:33Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Chairman Rocha. It's actually not a question, but I would like to move that we award the contract to Pierce Fence Company for the security fence replacement for the water treatment plant, Bid #26-0006WW.
Play from 1:21:41Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay, it's been properly moved by Dr. Sudler, seconded by uh Miss Dr. Pillsbury uh to award the uh contract to Pearce Fence Company. Uh any any discussion on the motion?
Play from 1:22:04Roy Sudler, Jr.
Uh thank you for recognizing me. I just wanted to say that as a as a contractor, I've never used them before, but I have seen their work out in the field and so I am comfortable in the capacity in which I have a contracting uh company. I've seen their work, never used them, but I've seen their work and so the to me they've been impressive. Haven't heard anything negative, so that's why I'm supporting uh uh this motion. I yield.
Play from 1:22:25Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Thank you, Dr. Sudler. Any any further discussion? Are you ready for the question?
Play from 1:22:53David L. Anderson
Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh there is someone who wants to a member of the public who wishes to comment if you would like to allow that.
Play from 1:23:08Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Uh yeah, I'll allow it. Uh I can't see who it is, but uh if there's someone from the public that would uh like to make a comment, uh you can uh state your name and address for the record and uh speak on uh on your behalf.
Play from 1:23:18Bobby Wilson
How you doing? Bobby Wilson, 32 West Loockerman Street, Suite 101D. I am uh asking Mr. um Jason Lyons about the subcontracting on this project. You reached out to OSD in reference to a prime, and I don't know what happened to that, but what about the subcontracting for small contractors for this type of project when you have over $200,000?
Play from 1:23:34Jason Lyon
Yes, um the the City of Dover's requirement for subcontracting is is not a is not a requirement, uh unfortunately. So, um we we reached out through the Office of Supplier Diversity for fencing contractors. Through that that's a category that you can look for on the website, and then we solicited from them. Um, but as far as subcontracting goes, that's going to be up for that prime contractor to make that decision.
Play from 1:24:07Bobby Wilson
And for future contracts, the City of Dover, the small contractors are left out of these large prime contracts. So therefore, you're talking about the homeless, you're talking about workforce development. So how are we to get involved when we're giving out over 200, 300, and millions of dollars of contracts with our small contractors are not being included? Tell me how did that work?
Play from 1:24:37Jason Lyon
I'm going to answer this by saying this is a city policy for procurement. I believe that if there is needs to be a change, it needs to be done
Play from 1:25:04Public Commenter
Your opinion, being a director of a department, do we have your opinion represents this?
Play from 1:25:16Jason Lyon
Uh, I believe it's a it's a valid point to make. I think it could not hurt.
Play from 1:25:25Public Commenter
Also, in the pre-bid meeting, in the pre-bid meeting with the City of Dover, there's no mandatory pre-bid meeting. So, therefore, when a small contractor like Mr. Sutler, like Miss like Councilwoman Hall, and myself, we are not invited to meet the large contractors because they're not mandatory to be there. So, therefore, how is the small contractor supposed to connect to the prime contractor when there's no mandatory pre-bid meeting?
Play from 1:25:35Public Commenter
And the answer from Mr. Lyon's office is is that we do not get enough contractors to participate. Well, therefore, if they don't want to participate, they don't want to get this the money from our taxpayers. If they think so less of our contracts to not to participate in a pre-bid meeting. So, we need to answer these questions for the small contractors. And I'm on the front line trying to represent the small contractors so they can feed their family as well. If we are still about DEI in the City of Dover, as the Council President has stated, is that right, Council President?
Play from 1:26:49Public Commenter
If we are still about DEI, let's show DEI in our contracts, please.
Play from 1:27:30Andre M. Boggerty
So, um, Mr. Lyon, I I think that, um, at the minimum, we probably could take a look at that. Do you think that's something that we could take a look at making seeing what it would take to make the pre-bid meetings mandatory so that we can open up a door or two for some of the small uh small subcontractors?
Play from 1:27:37Jason Lyon
Uh, for the record, Jason Lyon. Um, I have no opposition to it. I have to emphasize, this is not a Department of Wastewater issue. This is a City of Dover procurement issue. So I cannot speak on behalf of the entire city on this fact. I have no problem working with it and making things better. Um, I know that our department goes above and beyond the procurement policy, I'll be happy to mention that, um, to reach out to all the um the people that are that are on the Office of Supplier Diversity that are registered through the state. We reach out to them for every project. Um, but I have no objection to being part of the team to to make a change. Uh, I will mention that with certain projects that are extremely complex, you're going to have an issue with people coming from out of state to a mandatory pre-bid meeting. Just want to mention that. Um, and if they don't come to the mandatory pre-bid meeting, then they can't bid on the project. And if they don't come to the the pre-bid meeting, then we're just kind of spinning our wheels. So just keep that in the mind, uh, as you make a decision.
Play from 1:28:03Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yeah, I, I get what you're saying. I get what you're saying. Um, but I, I do think that for the minimum, of course, there, there's a work around for everything. But I get what you're saying, because some of the work that you're probably uh putting out for bid is is, you know, basically uh there may not be a contractor within the area that, that would be able to bid on it. And we want to open it up so that we get the necessary uh experts to come in and do the work. But I think we should at least, I'll, I'll even uh if Mr. Hugg is, is listening, um maybe we should uh look into it and see how we can uh accommodate that.
Play from 1:28:30James Wilson
One thing about it, it's Dover's world. We have, you are virtual. Why can't we have a virtual meeting in the pre-bid meeting?
Play from 1:29:15Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay. All right, let's, we're going to close out this um Understood, uh Mr. Wilson. Um, but yeah, um you just heard me agree with you to some degree. So, you know, let's get the ball rolling and I don't think we should take up any more time right now. Uh, you've spoken to all of me, myself, and all my colleagues and, and we get what you're saying.
Play from 1:29:23James Wilson
There's other municipalities that we can get examples to. I can take you to Washington, D.C., Maryland. December 8th they have a procurement conference in Washington, in, in at Maryland Live Casino you can go to. Do a a retreat. City Council do a retreat to another city and find out how the procurement department works. That's all.
Play from 1:29:50David L. Anderson
Uh, thank you, uh Mr. Chairman. I just, Dr. Sudler, uh wanted to respectfully remind the citizens there's a 3-minute uh time limit. And uh, anyway, uh thank you.
Play from 1:30:17Roy Sudler, Jr.
Uh, uh thank you, uh Chairman Rocha. Uh, with the current dialogue, in which we have heard before, um that contractors have asked for a uh pre-mandatory, this is not the first time that uh Mr. Wilson has brought this to our attention. And so, I would like to, I move that um we have within 60 days, or I would say in January, we have the procurement uh department or whoever is in charge of the procurement process to come to a meeting, whether it's your committee meeting or the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee meeting. I think it would be proper to have it with the Utilities Committee, being that this issue is coming out of utilities, and brief Council on the process, what we would need to do to make the proper adjustment uh for, for the mandatory pre-bid meeting, and um
Play from 1:30:37Roy Sudler, Jr.
and have an open discussion uh so that small contractors can can come forth and participate in the in the process so that it would help to clear up any of the concerns so that moving forward, it would be a smooth transition and everyone will be on the same page.
Play from 1:31:44Roy Sudler, Jr.
It's been I moved I moved to So in a quick synopsis, I moved that we revisit this um topic with a procurement um officer or whoever's um in charge of the procurement process and within 60 days to have them come back and brief council on the policy, the process, and what we would need to do to change the process so that we'll be in compliance uh moving forward. And to and to and to offer uh that discussion to small contractors or whoever, the public to come and participate in that discussion with the Utilities Committee. So in other in other words, in 60 days, have someone from the procurement office come out and at this utility meeting uh or in your committee if if if you are in approval of that and and uh have this discussion there.
Play from 1:32:04Andre M. Boggerty
Okay, thank you. All right, it's been properly moved and seconded to uh revisit with procurement with the procurement process in 60 days. Any discussion on the motion?
Play from 1:33:08Andre M. Boggerty
The ayes have it. That motion is adopted. We also have uh another motion on the floor um to accept the staff recommendation for the award of the Pearce Fence uh Fence Company contract. Uh are we Is there any further discussion on that motion? Hearing none, all those in favor, please state by saying aye.
Play from 1:33:21Andre M. Boggerty
The ayes have it. Motion carries. Um the next item up uh if uh Mr. Jason Lyon is still here uh is the evaluation of bids for Pump Station #7 upgrades. Um Director Lyon, uh you're you're recognized.
Play from 1:34:04Jason Lyon
Good evening, Committee Chair, uh fellow committee members, and Team Dover. Jason Lyon, Director of Water and Wastewater Engineering Services. Before you this evening is another um contract that was approved in the FY 26 budget to upgrade an existing pump station that we uh operate. Um we call this Pump Station #7. General location is on Route 13 um next to Bally's. Um this pump station is a significant pump station uh due to the fact of the amount of flow that it receives as well as when Kent County bypasses through the city of Dover, it goes
Play from 1:34:15Jason Lyon
through this station. Um, and in so doing, we need to have proper equipment and uh bypassing methodologies to accept that flow. So, that's part of this project um is to increase that operational capability. Uh, additionally, the wet well in this project, which is the underground storage of the flow um, is uh concrete and it needs to be relined to provide sustainability for the future. Um, as certain gases are uh emitted through this sewage. Um, again, we utilize the Office of Supplier Diversity, had a non-mandatory pre-bid meeting for this project. Uh, bid this out, we received two bids on the project. Uh, we um found that A-Del Construction, who has been a project, you may have heard that name numerous times uh from my mouth. This company has done projects for us in this large utility realm um numerous times. Uh, we find them to be quite satisfactory. Uh, the project came in under budget um, and to answer a potential question ahead of time, this evaluated price does include the 3% local vendor preference. Um, I'll be happy to answer any questions from the team.
Play from 1:35:01Andre M. Boggerty
Mr. Lewis, had a question, anyone? Who had? Uh, uh, Councilman Lewis?
Play from 1:36:23Brian E. Lewis
Okay. Uh the next question I have is, uh does this in any way feed into the county?
Play from 1:36:34Jason Lyon
Uh yeah. All of our pump stations eventually do flow to the county. Um this is one of the larger ones that feeds directly to the county. So, we have a network of pump stations that kind of do a parallel or series effect where they kind of go into another pump station and another, and eventually discharged to the county. This one directly discharges into the county.
Play from 1:36:39Brian E. Lewis
Have you spoken with the county as far as if they would be willing to uh assist in compensating us and funding it in any way?
Play from 1:36:52Jason Lyon
Uh th- that's a great question. Um in the past, we have gone in um with certain um projects. That particular station has um a granulated activated carbon filter to decrease the odor of the pump station to the location of it with regard to the Route 13 corridor. Uh the county agreed to um assist in that cost. These costs um are more or less of ongoing maintenance and improvements to make the station function more appropriately. So, we have not asked for this specific question.
Play from 1:37:25Donyale M. Hall
I don't have a question. I wanted to move that we accept the staff recommendation to award the contract to A-Del Construction for Pump Station number 7 upgrades project.
Play from 1:38:00Andre M. Boggerty
It's been properly moved by Councilwoman Hall and seconded by Councilman Dr. Sudler to accept staff recommendation and award the contract to A-Del Construction for Pump Station number 7 upgrade. Any discussion?
Play from 1:38:08Roy Sudler, Jr.
Okay. Uh, you know, obviously I can't see, but uh if we have a comment from the audience, please state your name and address for the record.
Play from 1:38:25Bobby Wilson
Bobby Wilson, 32 West Loockerman Street, Suite 101D. My question in this project, A-Del Construction, they worked on a project on State Street, and former Councilman Ralph Taylor called A-Del office, and asked A-Del, on my behalf and the city behalf, and asked A-Del, would they, were they going to hire any local contractors or local employees? A-Del told them, told Councilman, um, Taylor that they bring in their own people and they're not hiring any subcontractors. This is what I'm talking about, how we need to have this ordinance in our codes for procurement. And another thing, too, you have a project this large, in this project there's a a great deal of subcontracting activity that can take place: plumbing, concrete. You know, we missing out on all this. A-Del is going to take our money, take it back across the bridge to New Castle, and then the taxpayers are going to be left here with, again, a workforce development program that have no employees to hire people. These projects are good paying jobs, and our citizens are left without these type of jobs, all because companies are coming in out of state, out of the county, and getting these jobs. Now A-Del, you said 3% preference, do they get their 3% preference?
Play from 1:38:33Jason Lyon
So just to clarify, Jason Lyon for the record. Um, just to clarify, the the local vendor preference is broken into three different categories: there is, if you're in the city limits, you get first priority; if you're in the county, you get second priority; if you're in the state, you get third priority. This individual this company is located in Newark, the other individual the other company is located in Maryland. So they get the local vendor preference based on the fact that the first two were not hit. Hope that clarifies things.
Play from 1:40:54Bobby Wilson
Again, a vendor preference. So therefore, why do they get the same vendor preference as a local Dover company? I mean, how do a local Dover or Kent County company get a a higher preference than a company that's coming across the bridge, or get the same preference as a local City of Dover company? That doesn't make any sense. And then another thing, too, as me being a small contractor and Teal Construction, A-Del as a prime con- a contractor, if I build bid on the same contract as a minority and as a a Delaware residents, I should get six, not three. So I'm getting the same thing as a local contractors as well as a contractor that's coming across the bridge. It's not fair.
Play from 1:41:11Mr. Wilson
This is serious. Another thing too, we talking about aspirational goals. Why not have aspirational goals in these contracts where that when that prime, like A-Del win the contract for a million dollars almost, that he has to sub is a percentage to a smaller contractor, minority contractor, small contractor, someone, without taking it all home with him. Thank you. Have a good night.
Play from 1:41:44Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay. No, I was just uh going to say, yeah, you know, the 3 minutes is up. Um, you know, I appreciate your comments though. Thank- thank you for bringing that to our attention. We're going to, you know, we did make a motion and we're going to uh follow up on on that motion.
Play from 1:42:13Andre M. Boggerty
You You have another. You have another, um, I hope the Pres- Council President doesn't mind, or Chair, Chair. Uh, that you have another, uh-
Play from 1:42:28Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Okay, yeah, they they may approach the podium and please state your name and address for the record.
Play from 1:43:23Andre M. Boggerty
All right. Um, I'm I'm going to help you, I'm going to be your eyes and ears, is that all right, Council- Committee Chair?
Play from 1:43:24Chris Holstein
Chris Holstein, I'm living at 235 or 239 Kentwood Drive, Dover, Delaware, zip code 19901. I would like to talk to the council about last year's um event that happened.
Play from 1:43:30Andre M. Boggerty
No, no, I was just saying uh the the um City Clerk wanted me to convey a message to you. I was just um that if you send that information to the City Clerk's office, um someone will follow up with you. Is that okay, Committee Chair? That's all, you couldn't see the-
Play from 1:43:32Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Oh. Wait Wait Wait a minute. Hold Hold on a second. Is Is this in reference to Pump Station Number 7 upgrade?
Play from 1:43:44Andre M. Boggerty
Yeah. So if you send that if you meet with the City Clerk and get that information and send it to her. Thank you uh um and I apologize. I just was trying to be your eyes and ears. Committee Chair, it's yours.
Play from 1:43:49Chris Holstein
No, sir, but it's in reference to Troop 9 and Walter Nelson, Senior trying to reprogram me with along with a couple other things, falsifying medical documents and things like that. I would like my-
Play from 1:43:52Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
No, no, I I appreciate that, uh Councilman Boggerty. Thanks thanks for uh stepping in on my behalf. Um, so we have a motion on the floor. Is there any other uh discussion on the motion?
Play from 1:43:58Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Oh, yeah, no, that that's not on this committee. This is a Utility Committee business.
Play from 1:44:03Chris Holstein
I understand that. I'm just asking can I have my retrial? That's all I want. I got all my evidence, I got the legal codes, and Family Court. Again, this is going to be quick.
Play from 1:44:12Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
The ayes have it. Motion is is Motion carries. Um, thank you, uh Mr. Lyon, for for for the two items on the agenda. And if there's no fur-
Play from 1:44:21Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
further business for the Utility Committee, I now call the Utility Committee meeting to adjournment and I turn it back over to Council President Neil. Thank you.
Play from 1:44:51Fred A. Neil
Thank you, Mr. Rocha. I now recognize Chairman David Anderson to conduct the business of the Legislative, Finance, and Administrative Committee. The floor is yours, sir.
Play from 1:45:01David L. Anderson
Thank you, Mr. President. The Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee is called to order. We'll give a minute um for everyone to take their space here. Please take your time, sir. Don't don't rush. We have plenty We're going to be here a minute. Thank you very much. Now, at this time, I'd like to entertain a motion to adopt the agenda.
Play from 1:45:12David L. Anderson
Mr. Shevock and uh second by Dr. Pillsbury to adopt the agenda. Is there discussion? Seeing none, all in favor?
Play from 1:45:46David L. Anderson
Any opposed? The agenda is adopted. The first item is the evaluation of bids for fiscal year 2026 street and alley program. Um Mr. Lyon, uh Director of Water and Wastewater, uh you're recognized.
Play from 1:46:39Jason Lyon
Uh, good evening, committee chair, uh fellow committee members, and Team Dover. Jason Lyon, City of Dover, Director of Water and Wastewater and Engineering Services. Uh, before you this evening is the um the bid evaluation for our FY26 street program. Um these roads have been uh chosen um through an objective software package to um find out the roads and the conditions that they're in. Um, we chose a variety of different roads in different parts of the city uh this year to um to rehabilitate, utilize the Supplier of Office State, Office of uh, Office of Supplier Diversity through the state to uh solicit from uh companies that can do this work. Um, we received eight bids for this project. Um, you will see there's a uh quite a uh a swath of cost um on these projects. Um, it is good that we did have um the competitive bid to to see the prices um be competitively fought over. Um, we evaluated all the submissions, found that Grassbusters um is a company that we have used uh numerous times in the past on these similar projects of similar scope. Um, and their price came in uh just shy of $875,000, which is under the budget that we submitted for the uh for the fiscal year capital plan. Happy to answer any questions that anyone may have.
Play from 1:47:01City Staff
As far as the the software package that we use to to utilize the categories? I'm not sure what you're...
Play from 1:48:13City Staff
Yes, there is. Um so the project is called, um, we use the term rehabilitation because some of the projects are doing some things, some are not. Um they're not necessarily equating to the category that's in the software package.
Play from 1:48:21City Staff
But yes, there is a reconstruct, there's a rehabilitate category, um there are two or three more, there's like a maintenance category. There are multiple categories based upon the the software program.
Play from 1:48:33Brian E. Lewis
Well, I noticed that you have, uh, Bicentennial Boulevard in your package.
Play from 1:48:40Brian E. Lewis
And I was just what does it have to why does that have to be rehabilitated? It's almost in pristine condition.
Play from 1:48:45City Staff
The category, uh, you know our team members went out and evaluated this some years ago and it is found to be of a condition that needs to be rehabilitated. I I don't have a better answer for you at this point.
Play from 1:48:50Brian E. Lewis
Well, I noticed that you Freedom Drive is uh is in a reconstruct category?
Play from 1:49:22City Staff
And again, Bicentennial's not in I'm using the word rehabilitate as a general term. Not These these uh roads are not in that category. I I hope I'm not feel like I'm confusing.
Play from 1:49:34Brian E. Lewis
No, I I I I just don't understand when you have a Freedom, Liberty, and Freedom Court haven't been looked at in 25 years. You have seams that are inches wide. You have divots in there that the the blacktop is so thin, you can actually see the dirt underneath it.
Play from 1:49:42Brian E. Lewis
And and then I see you want to fix a road that doesn't need fixing. I I'm confused. How how does your your system...
Play from 1:50:23City Staff
The software takes into account the vehicle traffic as well, based on the type of road it is. That also changes the scoring. So, you're saying Freedom Court, that's a cul-de-sac, yeah?
Play from 1:50:28Brian E. Lewis
No, I'm saying Freedom, Liberty, and Freedom Court haven't been done in 25 year. The last time it was redone was 25 years ago.
Play from 1:50:35Brian E. Lewis
And it's it's deplorable condition, and it's going to get worse. Now, you you have it in a reconstruct, which makes sense, but I don't understand why reconstruct doesn't take a higher priority over rehabilitate.
Play from 1:50:43City Staff
Okay, so are you saying do you think that Bicentennial's in the rehabilitate category in the software program?
Play from 1:51:17Jason Lyon
It is, yeah. We would not choose There's 156 streets in that reconstruct category. Or something around that number.
Play from 1:51:27Committee Member
I've I've seen I I just think that your system needs to be looked at.
Play from 1:51:40Committee Member
And you don't You don't have You're an engineer, graduate engineer, right?
Play from 1:51:52Committee Member
Well, you don't You don't need to be, you know, an engineer to go to these streets and look at them, and see seams that are this far apart, and you look down and you can see a roadbed, and and then say something else is more priority.
Play from 1:51:57Committee Member
And I don't understand why we need to spend millions of dollars to fix something that isn't broken when there's things that are broke seriously broken that need to be fixed.
Play from 1:52:20Committee Chair
Thank you. Any other comments or questions? Questions? All right. Uh is uh members of the committee? Any members of the public have a question or comment?
Play from 1:53:21Bobby Wilson
Bobby Wilson, 32 West Loockerman Street, Suite 101D. As we stated with the last committee, you're going to look into the pre-bid meeting. Okay, with this committee, can you look into the aspirational goals?
Play from 1:53:48Bobby Wilson
Now Mr. Jason Lyon would tell you himself, if there was government money, state I mean federal government money in these projects, what would the project look like? They would have minority goals in them.
Play from 1:54:01Jason Lyon
For the record, Jason Lyon. Certain certain projects that receive federal funding do require a percentage based of the project be solicited to MBE/WBE/DBE contractors. Thank you.
Play from 1:54:07Bobby Wilson
So why reinvent the wheel? Why not take the state, DelDOT civil rights agenda and apply it to the City of Dover? And there you have it.
Play from 1:54:16Jason Lyon
I I'm sorry. I used an abbreviation. Minority Business Enterprise, Disadvantaged Business Enterprise, and Women Business Enterprise.
Play from 1:54:28Bobby Wilson
And Mr. Lyon would tell you Mr. Lyon, when there's government federal government money involved, isn't there aspirational goals?
Play from 1:54:30Public Commenter
And I want to say, that's the goals that we should set, the same goals as DelDOT on these projects. You would not have to reinvent the wheel. It's been approved, it's been working, and let's continue to follow that type of pattern, and then we'd be good. Thank you.
Play from 1:54:41Roy Sudler, Jr.
Um, can we, uh, get a microphone over to Ms. Paul for the recording?
Play from 1:55:01Ms. Paul
Okay, I just have one question. I know in 2021, and maybe I'm confused, if y'all can enlighten me. I know in 2021 Ralph Taylor, who used to sit there, he stated at one time that the, all these, the city projects were supposed to be put under a bid and minority contractors were supposed to have the opportunity to bid on these, these actual projects. Now, I do understand that with regards to some of these projects, and I just want to go through because I understand the process. With some of the projects, there were, when they did put the bid process out, there were no bids. So is this something that is—was this something that was just a trial basis or was it something that was actually a policy that the city actually started to
Play from 1:55:14Ms. Paul
follow? Is it something that was put in place as a, as a rule? Because if it's not a policy, then y'all, it has to be made a policy. We're not just talking about coming together to meet with it to say, "Yeah, let's have a," you know, "we're going to do it." We need to actually put it in, in writing and where it's actually a policy and procedure so we don't have to keep going through the same thing over and over again. Because I mean we've been going back and forth hearing this for like since 2021. You guys said that it was supposed to be done. And if it's not done, I mean I'm confused, I thought it was already a policy.
Play from 1:56:11Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. There, there is, um, the city does, uh, in fact solicit from the, basically the State of Delaware supplier diversity list, and to make sure that minority contractors, uh, do have a role. That's, uh, do you have anything to add, Mr. Lyon?
Play from 1:57:00Jason Lyon
Uh, Jason Lyon. Uh, the only thing I would add is that the only policy that I'm aware of right now would be the fact that minorities, uh, disadvantaged, and women-owned businesses receive a 3% evaluation reduction, very similar to what we've talked about with local vendor preference.
Play from 1:57:15Roy Sudler, Jr.
You don't get any benefit, basically, if there's another local business. Is that correct?
Play from 1:57:57City Staff
Um so if two two companies bid on the same project and they both were in the city of Dover limits, they would they would have the they would both get the reduction, but there wouldn't be a differential, if that makes sense.
Play from 1:58:03Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. Is that at one point it was um 1 and 1/2 % was added to it at one point. When did that change?
Play from 1:58:11Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. I appreciate that. All right, is now did we have a motion to on the contract? Mr. Boggerty, recognized?
Play from 1:58:21Andre M. Boggerty
Yeah. I make a motion that we accept staff recommendation uh to um give the project to Grasshoppers Landscaping in the amount of $874,256.
Play from 1:58:30Roy Sudler, Jr.
Moved and seconded to award Grasshopper Landscaping the the contract in the amount of
Play from 1:59:15Roy Sudler, Jr.
Grassbusters. Sorry. Who you going to call? $874,256. Is there a discussion? All those in favor?
Play from 1:59:22Roy Sudler, Jr.
One abstention and one opposed. All right, and with that, the motion is adopted. Is there any other motion on the floor regarding these items? All right, thank you.
Play from 1:59:39Roy Sudler, Jr.
And we'll just refer those concerns in with the to procurement, and they can look at it all in the 60 days. Um next item is the consideration of reclassification, regrading of senior land analyst position, Mr. Hugg? While he's coming up, Mr. Garfinkel?
Play from 2:00:23Michael Garfinkel
I'm I'm I'm sorry I'm late. I I should just uh should've been quicker on the draw. I just would like to make a motion that I believe it would be the Utility Committee of jurisdiction to review whatever process Mr. Lyon used to evaluate the properties,
Play from 2:00:41Michael Garfinkel
because there's something terribly wrong when you want to fix a street that isn't broken. And and and there's other streets that need it, the priorities. I don't know I don't know what's going on, but I think it it's time that we review it. And I like I said, I think it's the Utility Committee would be jurisdictional. So I make a motion to have that
Play from 2:00:59Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
It's been moved to refer a re-evaluation uh uh it to the Utility Committee of the software and of the uh of the what?
Play from 2:01:18Tricia K. Arndt
Thank you. Just to clarify, that that would not precede or would not affect the decision that we just made. This was This would be moving forward evaluate the process in the software.
Play from 2:01:40Dave Hugg
Um, thank you. Dave Hugg, City Manager. Uh, I want to kind of set the stage here if I can for this discussion. Uh, but I I believe Council Committee should hear from both the HR Director, the Police Chief, and the IT Director, uh, because these these issues are are inter- interrelated in a way that that, um, I think Council needs to understand. Um, and on your desk, you have a slightly revised version of an earlier memo that I sent to you, uh, mainly because I should have proofread it before I sent it. It had a couple of grammatical errors, but it- essentially, what's what's happening is, um, the police department has a vacant Senior LAN Analyst position. Uh, the individual that had been in that position uh has resigned. Uh, the Chief wishes to fill that position. Uh, he has an in-house candidate who has uh qualifications and and uh is interested in the position, has been an employee in the police department for about eight years as as a LAN Analyst, um, and and the Chief would like to consider him for that position. Uh, because we've made some other changes particularly in the IT Department to convert a Senior LAN Analyst to a Network Administrator title, which is a much more much more uh consistent and appropriate title for us to be using, uh, the Chief would also like to reclassify or re-title that position so that the two positions are essentially equivalent. I mean, they they have somewhat different fields of of involvement, but they're both performing work at at a similar level. Um, the- I'm going to avoid trying to introducing some salary numbers because I don't think that's fair to the to the people involved, but you'll understand I think what what's um occurring here. Um, the existing position um was posted in-house uh only. The uh uh employee incumbent in the police department uh has has applied. Um, the that individual has indicated that he rec- would like to have a much higher level of compensation than
Play from 2:02:07Dave Hugg
is provided currently, uh, through the network administrator title. Um, if we were to consider that, we would also need to look back at the other network administrator, who's a recent employee, uh, who was hired under the current, uh, salary scale. In the current salary scale for, um, the, um, Senior LAN Analyst has a range from 70.6 to a little over 100, uh, at max. Um, the request is is within that range, but at the higher end. Um,
Play from 2:04:31Dave Hugg
Chief has provided to to us to the HR department job descriptions for similar positions in Milford, uh, and an assistant manager position in Newark, both of which are substantially higher compensated than, uh, our current level of compensation. Uh, and the Chief has has indicated that, uh, he supports additional compensation for this position, uh, and a reclassification, in part because it's very difficult, uh, to get to find people, uh, in some of these technical areas.
Play from 2:05:10Dave Hugg
He's concerned that he would lose his resource, uh, if we don't make some kind of concession, um, and that, um, uh, should that happen, the Police Department IT department would be decimated. There would be no one, no one present to perform any services for the Police Department and its IT operations. I think you can imagine how how, uh, much of an impact that that would be.
Play from 2:05:48Dave Hugg
Um, the HR department, and then Naomi can speak more to this in a few minutes, the HR department has objected to the increase, in part because, um, they are concerned that we're continually singling out individuals for selective raises rather than taking a compre a more comprehensive look, um, and that, um, we set a a dangerous precedent when we make decisions based on the potential of somebody leaving or their threat to leave.
Play from 2:06:17Dave Hugg
Um, I want to make a couple of comments kind of from our perspective. We did a market study, as you know, back in 2023. Uh, Council supported us in raising a lot of our position salaries and job titles and what have you, uh, but I would I would say to you even in 2 years, 2025, 2026, in many areas is a new environment. It's a new a new market. Um, there there are jobs that are very hard to fill in engineering, in technology, skilled trades, planning, etc. Uh, and our our existing scales, uh,
Play from 2:06:45Dave Hugg
in some respects, don't provide sufficient funding, sufficient incentive for someone to apply, uh, for an in-house promotion or in-house reclassification. We have a 5% rule that that limits the amount of additional compensation a person can get to either 5% or the lowest, the starting grade of the of the new position. Uh, in many cases, that's not sufficient for, uh,
Play from 2:07:23Dave Hugg
someone with strong technical skills who who may be at risk of leaving. Um, the reason this is coming to council is for two reasons. One, council needs to this is a but a chee- a significant budget adjustment if we were to make it to honor this individual's request, uh and the change at the title also requires uh council approval. Um, what I'd and just a couple of points that that for your thinking, are we indicated many high-skill jobs are hard to fill. Uh our wage study may be outdated in some areas. There are a number of units in this in the city government that are relatively small, two or three people, where, you know, the the loss of a key employee can can raise major havoc on on on their operations. Uh in the key In this particular case, it would be nobody left in the IT department if the incumbent were to leave. Um, obviously incumbents have a corporate history. This individual has been a city employee for eight years, knows the operations of the police department, uh can step into that job with very little learning curve uh that somebody else might not be able to bring. The converse is anytime we we look at somebody's compensation, there are budgetary and benefit implications, and money's got to come from someplace, uh and that becomes a sort of a trade-off, if you will, that some area other areas of spending may have to get reduced in order to make this work. Um, there's a whole host of other issues, you know, affecting staff morale, affecting employee perception of favoritism, what have you. But the message before you tonight is that uh we have a significant issue in the police department. We have an incumbent who would like to stay in the police department uh who has asked for compensation at a considerably higher level than this position would otherwise provide, um who has eight years of experience, and um whose loss would be a significant impact on the department, also recognizing that HR has some very legitimate concerns uh about the implications of these kind of one-off decisions. So with that, I'd like to let you call in whatever order you want Naomi, the Chief, and Joe Simmons um because all of them have information relating to this action.
Play from 2:07:47David L. Anderson
All right. Any questions for Mr. Hugg? Then, uh, which one of you wants to, uh Uh-oh, Dr. Sudler.
Play from 2:10:21Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, uh, Chairman Anderson for recognizing me. Um, one of the questions I had was in regards to the in-house hiring process. Um, was the criteria made available, um, amongst the employees of the City of Dover overall or just in the department of of of the police department?
Play from 2:10:31Dave Hugg
Everyone who could have who would, yeah, who presumably was qualified could have applied.
Play from 2:11:06Dave Hugg
But they but they if they were a City of Dover employee. It's an in-house in-house first. It was not posted outside the city.
Play from 2:11:09Roy Sudler, Jr.
Um, my question also my question to you, um, do you foresee any um, can you see where this could be perceived as, um, being perceived as being a little bias? Um, I we're talking about a $25,000 to a $30,000 pay increase, um, for one person. And and I'm wondering if any of our IT, um, individuals that we have working like Mr. Simmons, uh, if there's anyone underneath his, um, leadership or department that could help fill in and until we found someone with a little less than than a $25 to $30,000 pay increase. Because my concern, my concern is that
Play from 2:11:15Roy Sudler, Jr.
we have raised, you know, we have hiked the electric bills, and we've done a lot of hiking of things. And I'm looking at our budget, and because we don't, we currently do not, um, meet quarterly, we only meet annually to review our budget, I'm not quite sure how this will impact our budget and whether or not this is going to come specifically out of the the, um, the police department's budget only, or is it coming out of the general funds? Uh, see I'm not quite sure how that how that works and what kind of precedence does that send. So I'm just, you know, things are just coming to my mind. I'm just...
Play from 2:12:15Dave Hugg
Yeah, I I think some some of these questions can be addressed by, you know, by by the other individuals. Um, to answer parts of your question, it's at least my position that should we go forward with this for this particular position, the other network administrator uh in in that works for the city should be treated equally. Not necessarily the same amounts of money, but you know, if we're going to upgrade and reclassify, then that person who has the title at the moment, um, should not be disadvantaged, if you will, or or unfairly uh treated. That's kind of one.
Play from 2:12:40Dave Hugg
Um, you know, clearly the money has to come from somewhere. Uh there are salary savings in the police department as a result of vacancies. Uh it would be my position that, you know, their budget has to eat the difference. Um they're not going to come we're not going to amend the city's budget and take money from someplace else. Um so that would and that obviously has implications for next year's budget. It has implications for whether the chief can staff some of the positions that would then otherwise not be funded. Those are management decisions that he that he necessarily has to make. Um I'm trying to think of what some of your other points were, I'm sorry. I forgot.
Play from 2:13:28Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. Uh we're we uh want to hear from our uh employees uh first and then members of the committee get to ask questions, and then we would allow members of the public to uh comment and ask questions. Um uh Mr. Boggerty, Councilman Boggerty.
Play from 2:14:22Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. Uh a few questions. I was kind of doing this. I was um doing what doing as Google and um going on Indeed and ZipRecruiter and and various sites to ascertain some information, somewhat reliable, not always completely accurate, but a relatively good source.
Play from 2:14:35Andre M. Boggerty
The the um my question is, and I and I'm going somewhere, what outside the Milford, which I don't know what those job duties are, but the what resource uh what what what global resource did was relied Are you right? was relied
Play from 2:14:52Roy Sudler, Jr.
Let's bring uh since Chief Johnson did a lot of that research, I want to invite him forward.
Play from 2:15:29Andre M. Boggerty
Oh, okay. Right. No, okay. was relied upon versus in comparison to their to their to the resource that HR, Human Resources, relied upon?
Play from 2:15:31Dave Hugg
Yeah, the, you know, obviously the Chief can answer that more so than I can. I know that in the materials that he submitted, the two positions that seem on the surface to be essentially the same are the one in Milford and the one in Newark. Now, I know there is a federal website that you can go on to confirm, and our current salary is somewhere below, but not anywhere, not quite as uh I'm trying to say that right. The the average federal salary falls kind of in the middle of
Play from 2:15:38Andre M. Boggerty
Mhm, right, that's kind I was I was I was getting to that, but you sped up my process. But I don't like to answer individuals' questions, so that's why I asked the questions: what what resources was relied upon, because the median income that I'm seeing specifically for for that, and, you know, I don't I don't want to call it individuals' like entry-level, because they if they have some experience, but was roughly in the $80,000s. Um, so so uh uh uh and then and then again, which now we open a a can of worms, and and I and I you know me, I don't count other people's money, but if it's owed to them, it's owed to them. If the current network individuals looks like they're they're they're under they're they may be underpaid, because they're making 67, where
Play from 2:16:00Andre M. Boggerty
whereas that the income seems to be in the 80s. So, could you could you tell me, again, I just want to I don't want to answer other people's, uh especially professionals', questions, cuz my resource and research may differ from theirs.
Play from 2:16:58Dave Hugg
Right. Um, I'm looking at some of the materials I looked at. The the Milford and and Newark
Play from 2:17:34Robin R. Christiansen
similar positions are are much closer to the high 90s and and above. Um the federal positions that I looked at um fall somewhere in the mid 70s to the mid 90s. And that's kind of a range. Um again, there was no no formal market study done uh at the level we did it back in 2023, but the I know the chief has looked into some of this some of those kinds of things, so I'd rather him answer that question.
Play from 2:17:37Andre M. Boggerty
Because um my my my my chief concern, and no not no pun intended, my chief concern is now we have individuals, we have two individuals who are significantly impacted. Again, if you know me, I don't have an issue with individuals making what they earn and making what they earn as it relates to the their uh skill set, um, but I I I must say um to the chief and others as well, and again I value when I see individuals within our city working and if they're I I wave at individuals picking up the leaves, I speak to everybody, but we cannot constantly be under the threat that they're going to leave. I I value, and I pray that that our our city our city employees stay. I I um from the individual who picks up the who who are environmental service individuals all the way up to the highest ranks, I value that I value each of you, and I get it. Trust me, I work nine to five on the clock, but I work probably eight to seven throughout the day in in my role. But we can't If if every If every move we make is going to be under a threat that we're going to leave, then the whole city's going to use that. And, you know what I mean? That that's going to be an ongoing uh um position. And unfortunately, we can't afford to live under that threat. That does not mean I don't value the individuals that hold positions. I'm sorry for bantering. I just want to make sure and make it clear. So so my my position is my position is what's realistic? Um if it were me, I would ask I would ask that there go back and be another consensus to come up with with with with with reasoning and also to base it just more, you know, God bless Newark, God bless Milford, maybe they've got money that we don't have, but to go back and and re-evaluate what's realistic. I wish I can get a 30% raise. I Pay me, right? And I, again, if it was in the scope of career and if it's deserved, so be it. But um I I I'm just not I just consciously can't can't do it this way unless it's more justification. Tell you.
Play from 2:18:10Robin R. Christiansen
Now, in that regard, I If you will, I'd like to ask the chief to come forward, or you can decide which one of them, but you know at least he can answer the question about the research he did and and uh relative value of this of this position to the police department.
Play from 2:20:38David L. Anderson
If that's okay. Chief, if you could come forward, please, to answer that question. We'll let you make your presentation in a minute. And then I do know that Council President Neil and Councilwoman Dr. Pillsbury also have questions. Chief, please.
Play from 2:20:54Thomas Johnson
Certainly. For the record, Tom Johnson, Chief of Police. Mr. Anderson, if you would do me the courtesy, just what question am I answering? Because there was a lot of different things that were talked about.
Play from 2:21:06David L. Anderson
The question was dealing with what is it based upon? What do you base the recommendation upon?
Play from 2:21:14Thomas Johnson
I base the recommendation, at its core, with the comparable positions that are available in the immediate proximity to the city of Dover, Delaware economics, other police departments that utilize IT resources in a tiered system such not unlike our own. We don't have a need for an IT director-level position such as Mr. Simms's. We don't need that in the police department because I have an administrative captain that handles that particular function. I have a middle management role and a frontline technical role that has been traditionally in the organization. So I researched the middle manager role, spoke directly to Chief Ashe in Milford, spoke directly to Chief Farrell in Newark, and with Newark also being our PERB comparable for things related to economics related to similar sized communities, that was one of the places that I knew I was going to reach out to. After looking at job descriptions and getting their scales and getting all their information, it was the most relevant information in geographical proximity to this labor market. That was my methodology.
Play from 2:21:21David L. Anderson
Thank you. Could you please just give a quick explanation of PERB comparable and why that matters?
Play from 2:22:42Thomas Johnson
I am not an expert on that topic, but I have come to know through labor negotiations and the various contract negotiations that I've been attached to, whenever there is anything that the two sides can't agree upon and you have to bring a third party in to assess what's fair, what's equitable, historically in the state of Delaware they've identified the city of Newark as the comparable for labor relations issues to the city of Dover. I believe that's based on population data, size of the workforce, demographic information that shows that they're kind of on the same par, and that's what's used to try and, I guess for lack of a better term, set the market, set the standard, set the value of whatever the issue is that might be in dispute.
Play from 2:23:17Fred A. Neil
Thank you. Chief, again, I sent a memo out to every member of the council with my thinking, so I don't want to dwell on all of those details. But if this position is missing, if you don't have this individual there, is there a big pull of
Play from 2:23:55Fred A. Neil
of line operators that you can pick up and use. If you have a vaca- a vacancy for 6 months, how will it affect the the workings of your department? Are you going to be hurt badly or is- can you hold up? So, one of those those questions include with uh the or the or or HR director, does she have somebody ready to for you that you can take a look at and put her in? If you don't have it, is this a difficult position to to to find? And of course, uh we'll have Joe Simmons also talking about it from the IT department. If If you are Are you going to be hurt if you don't have this individual or someone who has the same type of qualities uh within a very reasonable period of time?
Play from 2:24:10Thomas Johnson
All right. I'll I'll try and address them um as best I can, and I'm going to try and go backwards a little bit, sir, if you'll indulge me. First, I don't think it would be fair to the HR director to expect that she would have somebody um shovel-ready. Advertising for a position and a selection process, whether it's for a union position or a non-bargaining position, there are steps that need to be taken. So, I don't think there's, and unless she knows something that I don't, I don't think it would be fair to say that there could be anybody shovel-ready. There would have to be uh a little bit of a delay, but um in perfect conditions, it wouldn't take that long to find somebody. I think my um assertion to Council would be that we're not in in perfect conditions right now. Um when you're talking about IT function, and when you're talking about a supervisory-level um position that requires a certain amount of training, a certain amount of experience, and then when you put that in probably one of the most um highly-vetted positions because that person's going to be embedded in a police department. Um while most um IT professionals have to have a certain amount of uh security um commitment uh, if you will, there's no higher level than um government and particularly public safety. Uh so to find someone that is going to be able to function with the technologies that we use, um and in the environment that we work in, particularly the secure environment, for the rate that is currently offered under our um salary structure, which has not been looked at in years. And um I have more to offer as far as the process that I took before we arrived at this date. This was not something that that was done off-handedly, or in just just a minute with uh only a half a minute's thought. Um but I don't want to start doing that until the chair's pleasure that I do that I do that, but I did want to try and answer your questions as best as I could. I've already la- lost half of my IT staff when the director left suddenly uh in July, so um we are almost 6 months into um that lack of that resource because before he left, he was on administrative leave, and right now the only thing that the current IT professional in my building is doing is core functions.
Play from 2:25:03Thomas Johnson
He's keeping the the lights on and the water running. All the other maintenance, all the other uh associated duties that is part of the justification for having two individuals in that department, and um you haven't seen it yet, but when you see the budget profile, I'll be putting in the personnel line uh a request for a third because our technology has gotten to that point. The number of devices that we have to maintain ha has gotten to that point, and it's more work now for even two people. Um, but first things first. I'm trying to get back to two. I'm trying to maintain the institutional knowledge that I have. So, I took a hit when I lost half of my institutional knowledge. I'm going to take a much bigger hit if I lose the other half of my institutional knowledge and I have someone that has no pedigree with our systems and processes over the last x number of years that you would like to identify. And um I'm very careful with language, so uh I'm I'm going to stop short of using the word devastating or crumble, [laughter] um but I will say that we will be significantly challenged and our risk for something bad happening will go up exponentially for a significant amount of time before we can identify the two people that we're going to need to fill the two open positions and get them oriented and trained up and familiarized with our challenges till we can get that sense of security back. It would be quite a significant amount of time, probably in excess of a year.
Play from 2:27:27Thomas Johnson
Yes, but I don't want the record to reflect that I'm predicting catastrophic doom and gloom. We do have a great working relationship with the city's IT department. We have a great working relationship with the state level IT department that helps with some of our our security functions that are managed at the state level. Um, we would figure it out somehow, but it would be very challenging and we would be at significant risk until we got um our team back in place um and to the point where they were comfortable and functional.
Play from 2:29:04Julia M. Pillsbury
Thank you. I'd like to know if these, [cough] two employees have comparable experience. Um the chief's employee has eight years of experience in that department, and the um the analyst that is in the IT department, I don't know how much experience he has. So, he's at a level of 129-1, but the gentleman that the police department wants to promote was currently at 126-6. His experience needs to count for something, and I don't know if they're comparable. So, that's my first question. Um do they have comparable experience?
Play from 2:29:42Roy Sudler, Jr.
uh we are in open session, and then we with with personnel, we're looking at position reclassification, not necessarily the individual. So, but please.
Play from 2:30:43Joseph Simmons
Yeah, Joseph Simmons, the IT Director for the City of Dover. Um, and back in September, we hired um William Vidal um as our network administrator. Um he came to us with um Children's First as a network administrator. Um, and I will say that his experiences is definitely comparable um as far as his his tasks. Um he's he's a supervisor over two of LAN analysts um now that we uh onboarded. So he, you know, he's has a supervisory role, and also he has um with working with uh, you know, Dave before we brought him on here, and and Naomi to kind of stress that he has the the responsibility of our network. So it is a comparable position for what um the chief has at um Dover Police or what we have here. Um so like you said, there's some law enforcement um differences, slight differences, because you that's unique to law enforcement that we don't have at the city. Um, but outside of that, um those positions are very very, very compatible.
Play from 2:30:53Julia M. Pillsbury
So can you explain to me with his diverse experience why he's at a Level 1? Um, is that something that we do with all employees?
Play from 2:32:05Roy Sudler, Jr.
Um uh that uh I apologize, but to explain why that is, we'd start getting into uh personnel specifics, which uh is beyond um a reclassification, which is about the position. Uh we have limitations on what we can say on the floor um because it involves people, personnel issues, which it has some restrictions to it. But I I apologize, but we'll have to leave that uh off of the table. Can discuss stuff from offline.
Play from 2:32:14Tricia K. Arndt
Thank you for recognizing me. Um, so the market study was just done in 2023, right? And that included the police department positions as well, or was that just
Play from 2:33:17Tricia K. Arndt
So the so this position would have been covered under the market study that was done 2 years ago? 3 years ago?
Play from 2:33:33Tricia K. Arndt
I find it hard to believe that the market has changed so significantly in that short amount of time. But I'm not in IT, but just based on all the other jobs in the salaries, um I don't see um increases
Play from 2:33:40Tricia K. Arndt
to that extent. And and to Councilman Boggerty's point, I'm not discounting anyone's experience, but for someone to be working so far above their class, if we're talking about a reclassification for this amount of of salary increase, I I don't
Play from 2:33:48Tricia K. Arndt
understand how someone would be working at that level for so long and be so out of whack with with the market analysis. Um, and I'm I'm uncomfortable with these one-off decisions, and I think these significant budget changes should be requested during the time frame where we're reviewing the budget. And with that, I yield.
Play from 2:34:00Andre M. Boggerty
I'd like to invite, it's just so everybody can get their piece and patience in, um, Dr. Sudler, I believe...
Play from 2:34:25Andre M. Boggerty
I plea I plea I would yield to I would yield to um to Councilman Lewis since he hasn't had too much to say. Well, he's had a lot to say, but he...
Play from 2:34:34Brian E. Lewis
Um, my question is um to the Chief. Uh, I have concerns with this. And and by the way, uh, to my colleague Ms. Arndt, I I wholeheartedly uh agree with your comments. Um, but I I I look at this as this could become a potential morale issue with staff. I mean, how do you feel, Chief, about um giving a $30,000 increase to one person when we have other positions in the city that are hard to fill and need increases?
Play from 2:34:48Thomas Johnson
Um, I'm going to answer your question. I'm just going to refer to the chairperson. I think I can answer Councilman Lewis's question a little bit better if you would allow me to provide a little history as as to how I got to the point of making this request because there's um I feel like we're kind of hitting different things along the way, if that's okay, sir.
Play from 2:36:01Thomas Johnson
And then, and then Mr. Lewis, if or Councilman Lewis, if if uh I haven't answered your question in the middle of that, I'll I'll be looking right back to you to get offer any clarity that uh that you feel like you need. Is that Is that okay?
Play from 2:36:21Thomas Johnson
Okay. Chief Um, the position as it was currently constructed had not been evaluated in more than a decade. The individual that occupied the position for reasons that I think you probably already articulated, Mr. Anderson, I could not say openly without us going into an executive session and then council would understand a little bit better as to why that didn't occur. His separation was abrupt and part of and let's just say an off-schedule unusual process that I didn't expect and I didn't see coming. The characterization that the employee is holding either me, the department, or the city hostage as far as the threat to leave, that is not accurate from the standpoint of there was discussion about his departure as a LAN analyst when there appeared to be no prospect for him to do anything other than be a LAN analyst for the foreseeable future. He started making plans to move on to the next thing because he couldn't evolve with his degree, with his experience, etc. When we ran into that unusual circumstance that I am not at liberty to expand upon anymore, I suddenly had an IT director on administrative leave for a significant amount of time while we
Play from 2:36:33City Staff
had to figure things out, and then there was a resignation that happened rather abruptly. So unfortunately, that happened on the second day of the budget year, which left me no opportunity to bring this before Council prior to the time that takes to do this properly and through what I believed was the lens that would allow everybody to evaluate the decision in the best possible light.
Play from 2:37:17City Staff
As soon as I knew I had a super um a middle manager vacancy and I saw that the job description was not even reflective of the job that was being done, we had to go about the business of updating the job description, because you can't advertise for a position without an accurate reflection of what the work is going to be. That involved research of what what additional things we were doing in that role and perhaps a thing or two that we weren't doing anymore that needed to come out.
Play from 2:37:40City Staff
And in the aggregate, I took that revised job description with a working title, because we weren't sure what the title was going to be, and I did research when the employee came to me and said, "Here's what my peers in Delaware are making, and this is what I would like now that I've won the job through the competition that was done."
Play from 2:38:05City Staff
The the job was advertised in-house. I have that option to keep it in-house because I'm trying to hang on to the institutional knowledge. If I had another person with institutional knowledge, I might have considered a more broad um call for candidates to try and fill that secondary role to see how that would work out. But now he was the only institutional knowledge I have left, so I had the option to, and I exercised the option to advertise the position in-house.
Play from 2:39:07City Staff
Once we got the job description squared away, once we did the process the way the by the book, the way the book is supposed to be said, and HR offered the candidate the salary figure that I knew they had to, because there's a city policy that governs what the HR director is allowed to offer—no no shade on that whatsoever.
Play from 2:39:37City Staff
But when it was pointed out to me that the market reflected different numbers for almost the identical position in comparator agencies just to the south of us and just to the north of us, I took it and then I verified. And I started making phone calls to make to make sure that we were really talking about apples and apples here, because that's apparently where the market is right now. Um and so that that's when when you're asking me about how we can have the numbers where we are, some of this is related to the person that occupied the seat being complacent and not being concerned or interested in drawing attention to themselves to discuss this issue. So where there was no problem, there was no problem. But now that we are in transition, and that individual stayed at my suggestion, because now there was opportunity for him, we've gone through the process. It was clear that this was going to have to come to Council at some point because the market had shifted, and clearly we needed a new title because once I was made aware of Joe's situation, I did not know that he had hired somebody to a similar job description
Play from 2:39:57Thomas Johnson
in a similar classification. And Mr. Anderson's email, and I think this would speak to Councilwoman Arndt's concern about doing a one-off for a particular individual, I agreed wholeheartedly that this should be an assessment of the position and not necessarily an individual. So if I've done nothing over the last couple of minutes, I want to make sure you know that the individual is not doing a strong-arm tactic here. This is someone who, at my request, hung in there, took care of the department for me, did not execute his plan to seek other employment, and now we're looking to see if he can continue with his career in some semblance of what I will call market equity. And then once I became aware of his counterpart in the city IT department, now I'm talking about position equity. I wholeheartedly endorse that anybody that has the training, and the credentials, and the background to be a manager in IT, which is what this role is, not a director's role, but it's also not an entry-level employee's role, this is where I found the market to be. And this is why I felt, with a straight face, that I could stand before you tonight and talk about it. I would like to point out, before I finish, and I think this might swing back Mr. Lewis to one of your concerns as to why I feel this is justified: the two other positions that we're talking about with eight years experience are going to still be thousands of dollars ahead of what the Dover position will be. So when he countered at the number that he countered, I said, "I can't go with you there, because I'm aware, just like every other department head's aware, that there are financial concerns for city administration, about the budget, and about the real dollars." I said, "I'll advocate to get you in the ballpark, but I can't advocate for you to be the best-paid IT manager in public safety in Delaware. I'm not even going to make the argument for the mid-line." But if the other ones are already six figures, I can endorse something in the low 90s, and that's what I brought to the city manager, was something that got him in the ballpark, which would allow me to retain my institutional knowledge. And I'm not going to speak too much for Director Simmons, but I think probably the one thing that we both agree is that it's very hard to put a price tag on institutional knowledge, and starting from scratch with nobody, and then you have to fill both the supervisor and the frontline person at the same time.
Play from 2:40:33Thomas Johnson
And Councilman Lewis, did I fill in all the gaps for you with that, or was there more that you—
Play from 2:43:08Brian E. Lewis
Not really, but I'm going to move on. I got a question for Mr. Simmons. Uh Mr. Simmons, uh the IT person that works for you, does he not cover the whole city?
Play from 2:43:08Larry Simmons
Uh, again, he covers the whole city, um except for the uh police department and certain sections of the library.
Play from 2:43:18Larry Simmons
Um, the police, law enforcement has uh uh certain parameters that does not constitute, far as IT person from the city to take all aspects of that over. And, I was—
Play from 2:43:31Larry Cole
speaking from IT director on some of the stuff. And I know chief will agree with me, any kind of evidential data, law enforcement data, that's more controlled by CJIS and the state of Delaware. So, there's a little cross-section there. Obviously, there are some things that we can do in a in a pinch to help out. But then again, for example, nobody in the city, on the city side, has body-worn camera. So, we're not familiar with that system. That's something that that's really kind of like unique and specialized as far as, you know, video capture and things like that because that's law enforcement. So, yes. There's some things are city-wide, but there's certain niches of IT that are that are more specific.
Play from 2:43:50Brian E. Lewis
Wouldn't it behoove you to get your man trained so if in fact in the future, um, something goes down in the police department, he could fill in on the emergency basis?
Play from 2:44:16Larry Cole
Uh, we can do that. Both of my All of my LAN analysts are DELJIS certified. They have to be because we support the fire marshals and code inspectors who uses DELJIS equipment. So, they do have the background check. They can do it. I think historically, there was kind of like, you know, kind of if you want to say, you know, segment of duties as far as what the police had to deal with. Because like I said, they deal a lot more on the state network with DTI than as far as city services other than HR and some administrative tasks.
Play from 2:44:24Brian E. Lewis
Okay. I just have one more question, but it's going to be for our HR director, if she don't mind coming up.
Play from 2:45:13Brian E. Lewis
Um, I just have a couple questions for you. Uh, I like your viewpoint on this matter. Um, I don't know if you'd be able to answer from a fiscal point of view, but uh if you don't mind providing that on this particular uh subject matter?
Play from 2:45:24Kim Hawkins
Well, I think we need to start with how much this is going to cost. Right. The impact of this is about $60,000, a little bit more than $60,000. Um, so, that's including the retitling or, excuse me, the regrading, not the retitling. Um, so, the financial impact is a little bit over $60,000. That's including ancillary costs, like benefits, um, uh, insurance, all of those things. Um, because we're not just talking about one position, we're talking about two positions.
Play from 2:45:59Brian E. Lewis
Okay. So, um, what's listed here is probably not accurate, because it's going to increase.
Play from 2:46:21Brian E. Lewis
Gotcha. Thank you very much. Um, in your opinion, uh uh and I understand, um, the chief has the right to post in-house first, uh but uh could he have or can he still uh put it out there, um, publicly? And I know you would work with him on that.
Play from 2:46:26Brian E. Lewis
also, um, it it could be suggested that maybe some the retirees would be interested in that position. So, uh, from it being posted in-house and, let's say, nobody applies for it, then it would move on to being posted publicly, correct?
Play from 2:47:06Kim Hawkins
Um, he did choose to post it internally, um, which only one person applied, the person who was interested in the role. Obviously, you have to meet the credentials to even, you know, to apply. Um, but yes, he could have there was an option of him doing it external as well, um, that would have garnered some competition, some more candidates, um, and a pool of candidates for him to choose from in case things don't work out.
Play from 2:47:21Brian E. Lewis
Ex- exactly. I was going to say, and I wrote it down in my notes here, that, um, you know, maybe it should have been posted outside, um, and by doing that you would, uh, possibly get more of an array of candidates, uh, that would meet the qualifications, but then you would be able to weed through them.
Play from 2:47:42Kim Hawkins
Yeah, and I'll give you some stat- some statistics as well, um, just so that you can know what it looks like. Um, we posted for Joe's positions, so his network administrator position, um, his, uh, LAN analyst position. So, let me start with the, uh, network administrator position. We posted in May. We had 11 applicants. Um, the interviews began in June, and then we made an offer in July. It was pretty quick. Out of the 11, um, they fit the credentials necessary for the position. Um, the LAN analyst, we got more applicants from that one. We posted that in May as well. We got, uh, 29, uh, uh, applicants, uh, interviewed in August, and then we hired in September.
Play from 2:48:24Kim Hawkins
So, um, I just want to put that out there because the theory of, you know, possibly being hard to fill the position, that's just the theory. These are the facts. It's not hard to fill the position.
Play from 2:48:56Brian E. Lewis
And I wholly- heartily agree with you on that because, you know, uh, these computer positions, um, they're they're out there. I mean, that's an up-and-coming field, and and I talk to people everyday that are going into that field. So, uh, I don't believe that those jobs are hard to fill.
Play from 2:49:33Brian E. Lewis
I I agree. Uh, and then when you posted that, um, for the position, uh, that, um, Joe Simmons requested, uh, our IT director, there was an array of candidates that applied. You said roughly about 11 plus?
Play from 2:49:46Kim Hawkins
And they met the qualifications for the position which was, um, which gave him an array of people to look through and interview. So, um, so I think that was helpful.
Play from 2:49:56Kim Hawkins
Um, and again, posting these positions, we're going to have people apply, especially at the rate in which we're paying. Um, is it low? No.
Play from 2:50:03Kim Hawkins
Um, the when I looked it up, um, it the median rate was about $80,000, um, and I think that's what you had looked at as well.
Play from 2:50:10Kim Hawkins
Um, I think what need to be acknowledged as well is is that we have a new non-bargaining
Play from 2:50:20Irene Poole
scale, where these these rates are going to go up. Um and so that needs to be taken into consideration with this person as well.
Play from 2:50:23Brian E. Lewis
Uh Understood. Um and I have one more question, and if you feel uncomfortable answering it, then you can let me know, and uh I would have no problem with that. Um do you feel that um by giving one person a $30,000 increase uh when we have other positions in the city that are hard to fill or need increases could possibly cause some morale issues? And I'm asking you that because you're our HR director.
Play from 2:50:31Irene Poole
Certainly. Um I don't think the the could, it it will. Um I think it's uh absolutely unfair. I think it sets a precedence of preferential treatment. Um I believe picking out employees because you are uh I don't want to use the word scared, but you're concerned that they will leave is not a it's not a good reason. Um there should be more in retention and retaining your employees. Um I think cross-training is is really important in this specific situation because not one person holds the key to everything. Um and that should never ever be the case. Um and and to me, that's a failure in management. Management should make sure that all employees are able to pick up and um to do pieces of jobs. Um again, no one person holds a position. Everybody can be um we can find somebody to fill a position, is pretty much what I'm saying. So, no, I don't think that it's fair at all. Um I think the reason why we implemented the non-bargaining scale was the for equity. And since I started here over three years ago, I've been speaking about equity. Equity is important for all, not just for two employees.
Play from 2:50:52Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. Thank you for yielding, Councilman Sudler. I just have one question um based on um what what with uh with uh Mr. Simmons said and the Chief said, giving the unique niche and the CJIS, the body cams, does that sway probably not 30,000, but does that does that sway the applicant pool at all or or no? Given the the certain
Play from 2:52:57Andre M. Boggerty
The quals. The certain be- be- and according to from what I understand, that um the they're the network administrator in Dover has the has a has the quals to do body-worn cams, um do CJIS work, and other spe- specific work as it relates to to police work outside
Play from 2:53:23Andre M. Boggerty
out of the, you know, outside of Mr. Semans's role. So, I just wanted to know, did those little nu- Now, I don't want to call them little. Did those nuances sway or justify any additional movement at all?
Play from 2:53:40Kim Hawkins
Not really because when you look at the job descriptions, they're pretty much the same. There's certain pieces that the City of Dover IT department will do that maybe Police IT will not do, so it kind of 10- It works out, yeah, exactly.
Play from 2:53:52Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Uh thank you for recognizing me, uh Chairman Anderson, and if it's- I have two questions. Um one for Ms. Poole and also one for Ms. Marley. Um so I'll start with Ms. Poole since she's there. Um
Play from 2:54:18Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
how do you feel in regards to the no-market study was done versus comps only? Is there- How do you weigh that?
Play from 2:54:35Kim Hawkins
Well, see, now, now we're going somewhere, okay? Market study was done in 2023, which was a great thing I think for the city, great thing for the employees.
Play from 2:54:44Kim Hawkins
Um, what should have happened was the non-bargaining scale should have been implemented in or around that time um in 2024.
Play from 2:55:29Kim Hawkins
And why I say that is, is that the increases would have come, which would have kept everyone at a comparable rate to our surrounding comps in the area.
Play from 2:55:46Kim Hawkins
Um, that would have helped with compression, and that would have solved a lot of the issues that we're encountering from a salary standpoint.
Play from 2:55:59Kim Hawkins
Um that didn't happen until most recently, and so now we're trying to play catch up with unions who are receiving 7+%, um and you have your non-bargaining employees that are making less than their subordinates. So, that presents an an issue regarding um, um just fairness and market, market equity. Um, so comps uh to answer your other question, um is a little difficult. Um in comparison, the Chief talked about Newark, that we use Newark as a comp. We use Newark as a comp for police, not just for all positions. So, I think that there's a distinction in that. Um, but in comps of the area, we do look for like um uh- munici- municipalities that are like the City of Dover to make a um somewhat of an equal comparison.
Play from 2:56:11Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Thank you, and leading to um another question about fair, competitive pay structure and policies. How would this impact that initiative?
Play from 2:56:33Kim Hawkins
It will impact that because we have a policy in place. Anyone who receives uh any sort of a promotion gets a 5% increase or the start of the new grade, whichever one is highest.
Play from 2:56:43Irene Poole
Um, implementing this $30,000 increase bypasses the internal policies that we have here, and how fair is that? That creates liability. Um, that's that's not sustainable. So, um, so I you know, HR, we're about compliance and we're about following policy and procedure, and when you start going left from that, I'm I'm not going to be in agreement with that at all.
Play from 2:56:56Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you for your feedback. I would now if the Chair if you can, um, ask Ms. Marney. And thank you, Ms. Poole, for being here this evening and providing us with the expert knowledge in which you have.
Play from 2:57:26Roy Sudler, Jr.
Just what is your viewpoint in regards to the budget? The um, you know...
Play from 2:57:44Patricia Marney
So, uh, obviously it's going to impact the budget. I did take some time uh this afternoon to take a look at both the police and IT budget and where they stand percentagewise for salary thus far this year. Um, and again, I have bad eyes, so bear with me. Uh, it it I'll give you some comparators. At the end of fiscal year 25, which we are still working through audit process, the uh the budget line item for the police department where this position will fall was over budget by five nearly 5%, it was 4.8%. Where we are today for this budget line item, uh for salaries for the police department, they have used nearly 40% of their budget. Now, to Chief's point, he uh has not filled the director's position, it is a possibility that they could use some salary savings from that position to fund this increase. So keep that in mind, aside from everything else that has been mentioned tonight. But there is a possibility, depending on what uh the individual decides for benefits and things of that nature, that it will impact the budget further. Okay? And that's not just this year, that's going into the future, too. All right? Now as far as IT is concerned for their salary line budget, they were over budget last year about 1%. Fiscal year 25, and again, those are unaudited numbers, we're working through the audit process right now. Thus far this year, they've used 33% of their budget. So, they will have some salary savings from positions that were open and not filled up until this point, but not to a to the degree that would need to qualify. Okay?
Play from 2:57:49Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you for accommodating, I yield. Thank you Chairman Anderson for recognizing me, I yield.
Play from 3:00:01David L. Anderson
if I I think you have a um compromise position. I I want to hear that as well in a little bit. Uh, but I wanted to yield to Councilman Rocha right now. Councilman Rocha?
Play from 3:00:14Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Uh yeah. Thank you um Councilman Anderson. Um, and most of my questions were were answered, uh in particularly uh when uh Councilman Boggerty pointed out the uniqueness of the position. But uh in listening to Ms. Poole's answer, um it sounded to me like the job description really I don't know if it did or did not point out the uniqueness cuz, you know, if we're was that even considered in the writing of the job description? I guess I want to ask the chief, when it comes to this position, and then do the other municipalities that have the same position under the police department, is their positions equal to or comparable to an IT position for the rest, you know, for their other IT for that municipality, if that makes sense?
Play from 3:00:33Tom Johnson
Uh, for the record, Tom Johnson uh again, uh from the Police Department. Uh, Councilman Rocha, are um are you are you asking me if um the other positions are comparable job descriptions and comparable locations under the umbrella of their municipal governments? Did Did I understand that to be the question?
Play from 3:02:14Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Well, I'm trying I'm trying to determine whether or not the position that you're referring to, under the uh police department, because of the uniqueness of, you know, working with body cam software, stuff like that, excuse me, um would justify a different job description.
Play from 3:02:35Tom Johnson
I I guess the best way, sir, that I could answer that to you is we reviewed the job description um when the position became vacant and found that it did not reflect the current duties and responsibilities of the position, and we went about the business and and working with HR to try and make sure that it was in the proper format and was reflective of the position that we were trying to fill. Once the um drastic difference in salary came to my attention and I looked at the other nearby municipalities that had similar positions. Not every municipality has an IT structure that really lends itself to a direct comparison because they might only have one person, or they might have two people and there's no middle management position, some places it's a co-responsibility of an existing officer, some places use a contracted service. So depending on where you go to try and compare um what the correct value is. Um so when it was suggested to
Play from 3:03:29Thomas Johnson
to me that similar positions and that it ended up being Milford and Newark when we put those job descriptions which I um submitted to um City Administration in my um memo of September 30th. Um It was felt that those were comparable job descriptions as far as the things that they were responsible for. The hard part about being spot-on exact is neither Milford or No, I take that back. Um One of the two had a 911 center, the other one didn't. Uh so we have a public safety answering uh point here and our IT folks, in addition to servicing the the police department operations, they facilitate 911 operations, and that has its own uh separate set of technologies. I don't believe um either other municipality, there was no comparable as far as the city-wide camera system and us being the liaison technology resource for 300-plus city-wide cameras um that are in operation uh around town that we utilize uh for public safety purposes. So there was enough cross-over I guess to uh speak um I'm not sure who mentioned it before, none of them are identical, but on weight, if you subtract one thing that's unique to one place and you add something in that's unique to the other, on balance we felt that those positions were on balance the same way we felt that the um when Director Simmons and I spoke, we felt internally our two network administrator roles um were on balance. So that's where um w- when it comes to um the idea of this being equitable and this being in line with market conditions, I only know what I know from doing the research that I did when the position became available after I went around went about the housekeeping business of making sure that we were going to be comparing apples to apples and not dissimilar um fruit, if you will.
Play from 3:03:29Andre M. Boggerty
And how many are in the department? I think you said you were at two, or is there more than that uh as far as the uh you know, those that are pitching in and doing the work?
Play from 3:05:34Thomas Johnson
My par level is two. I have an AFSCME LAN analyst that has been the acting senior LAN analyst in a non-bargaining role um with a 5% um temporary adjustment to his pay, and to keep us in good working order, uh I believe the last time uh I checked, uh he's somewhere around 15 to 18 hours of overtime each pay period uh to make sure that we don't suffer a a setback in a critical function or a critical piece of equipment.
Play from 3:05:49Andre M. Boggerty
All right. Thank Thank you, Chief. Uh I I yield uh Councilman Anderson.
Play from 3:06:22David L. Anderson
Thank you. And um all right. Let's Let's get the uh staff. Is anyone What are your fi- final thoughts? Chief, you're there if you
Play from 3:06:28Thomas Johnson
Sure. Um, Mr. Chair, Council, I I did not bring this um issue to you lightly, and the only other context that I would give you is over the last four years, every time a situation came across my desk um that was related to um equity and value related to a position, and I could and they all took different paths depending on when they happened, how they had them, and what and how they happened, and what they were. But we've been able to get this accomplished with my 911 Center Director, my executive assistant, the social services clinician who's our licensed clinical social worker and her professional pedigree, my resource manager and him being hired in from the outside and making sure that we could find our way to an offer that recognized hit you know, his particular skill set that was very specific to policing, so we could make it an equitable hire at an equitable salary. I championed for all those employees because after evaluation, it was the right thing to do. The thing that I maybe on balance I don't get credit for is the number of times that I look sat at someone and said, "No. This doesn't fit the criteria, and I'm not taking this any further because that's out of balance. You're You're asking me to make a move on something that's not a direct comparable. If you're upset about this particular issue with this particular employee, then go to their school, join their profession, and when the market for that profession moves, then you would absolutely be entitled to equal consideration. But if you're practicing a different profession, if you're practicing in a different in a different place or in a different zone of your choice, when that's not fair anymore, you come see me and I'll go and fight for that." In this particular case, I did the research independent of my subordinate. I felt that he had a point. I'm not ready to endorse the ask that he made, but I am ready to endorse the number that I arrived at that would get him in the ballpark with his peers in Delaware in similar job descriptions. And I'm not going to do for the other five or six over the last four years and not come to you. I know it's inconvenient. I know there's a lot of pressure on Council as it relates to dollars and cents, but as it goes to 400 Queen Street, if I don't fight for everybody the same way, I have a morale problem inside my building. And I'm just coming to you in similar fashion and making sure that you know that I did my due diligence, and I have the capacity to say no, and I have said no. In this particular case, I felt this was justified with every last respect to the other individuals, uh particularly when uh one of my positions hasn't drawn a dollar in salary all budget year so far because he hasn't been there to do it. And if I switch this staff member from his frontline position to his management position, I'm going to be saving salary in his zone until I can replace him. And that's going to take longer than a couple of weeks because our background investigation is much deeper and our processes are much longer than hiring an employee in any other city department. And that doesn't make us special, that just makes us different because of the nature of the work that we do. And I appreciate everybody's time and
Play from 3:06:49Thomas Johnson
in consideration. I know this is not an easy topic for you to absorb tonight because this position hadn't been looked at it so in so long, it makes the dollars look more dramatic. And I feel bad because that's probably a little unfair to the candidate that's caught in the middle. And I also feel that the parity that might be available to Mr. Simmons' employee is probably just as justified, but to explain how he got where he got in the circumstance that he did might cross those lines that Mr. Anderson pointed out that we can't touch in open session as to a particular why for a particular employee. So I'm going to stop short of crossing that boundary. Um I just wanted I'm leaving you with the idea that I don't take this lightly and I'm not trying to insult your intelligence and I'm not trying to disrespect the community that's in the room, um because sometimes we just don't tend to business. Uh and some of that's my fault, cuz I did not proactively ask the existing Senior LAN Analyst where where where's your position at? Why haven't you been bugging me um for for the things that you probably should have been bugging me for? I I would have to try and figure out how to get in his mind and why he never raised the issue to me beforehand. But the issue was discovered while I'm trying to address an unplanned vacancy. It's not because I'm trying to give you a headache in the middle of November.
Play from 3:10:03Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. And it's not a a question or anything that you uh need to answer. Uh it's more like say a statement, and I do have a motion to make, and before I make my motion, I do want to say that, um, you know, I appreciate you bringing this forth. Um, and I appreciate the fact that, you know, you said, well maybe it's some accountability because we all have accountabilities that we have to take in life, period. So I appreciate that. Um, before I make my motion, I'm I'm going to tell you where it's coming from. I think that, um, maybe it'd be more beneficial, uh, all the way around that maybe we have you to link up with the, um, HR director and maybe repost it externally, uh, to see what we, you know, what type of pool we get, and then go from there and and and revisit, you know, um, what we have then. Cuz I think, like you said, it's a little unfair that you're here at this point, for not only the candidate, but also for us, looking at budgetary issues and hikes in taxes, I mean not taxes, but you know, electric bills, and just trying to be good stewards, period. Um, but also trying to get the job done, right? Trying to make sure we have what we need to do as proficient job. So I would offer, I'm I'm going to make a motion that that uh we have, you know, the Chief of Police to um coordinate with or work with HR department to externally um post the job and and and see where we are with a pool of people. Maybe post it maybe for 30 to 60 days, um and see where
Play from 3:12:04Andre M. Boggerty
we are, and then have this revisited and brought back to this committee uh for further discussion or consideration. I think that would be a little fair.
Play from 3:13:19Roy Sudler, Jr.
Moved and seconded to uh work with HR to repost the position and uh do we uh, did did I do I just have a question about that, Mr. Mayor, you're recognized.
Play from 3:13:34Robin R. Christiansen
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chief uh, if we do not approve this, what would the consequences be realistically? And you don't have to sugarcoat it.
Play from 3:14:09Thomas Johnson
Well, um, Mr. Mayor, it's a very difficult question to answer because as much as I'm advocating for what I put in front of council, I do not make it a habit of being an alarmist. And I also don't make it a habit of deciding what I think other people would do, and I'm also worried that my words might influence. Um, just to to make council aware the employee is in the room and if I was to somehow be interpreted as over exaggerating the consequences, we're going to be in a bad way. But being in a bad way is the presumption because I haven't had a chance to talk to him about how he feels about continuing his role while we sample other options and parade them in front of him for the job that he's already earned. And how he would look at that as an existing tenured eight-year Dover employee as to how he's valued at. Well we value you, but we want to comparison shop one more time, and no disrespect to Dr. Sudler's motion, I'm thinking about the my individual employee right now and what message that that sends him. And I'm saying that because I think it might contribute to the answer to the mayor's question of what do I feel the impact is going to be? Um, it would be only conjecture, but I just know that the employee had original plans to move on. I asked him to stay and participate in the process for the best interest of the police department. By default he had some interest in that. But it's the best interest of the police department would be to retain some institutional knowledge, somebody to train the next person coming along, because there's no guarantee that in two years he doesn't get a phenomenal offer from the private sector and then even though he got the promotion, he still might decide to go. I can't predict into the future, and I can't predict how he'll react to tonight's council action, and that's what makes it hard for me, Mr. Mayor, to answer your question about what I think is going to happen next. Because I don't even want to look at him. Because I don't want to precipitate um any ki- any kind of signal that I might misinterpret.
Play from 3:15:05City Staff
Uh, as I mentioned in the earlier, um, I have state-level resources, and if I called the state and said, look, all the stuff that's state-centric that you have to approve who touches that, I need you to send me somebody, and I'm going to conduct a fire drill and try and and find somebody to come in and and handle business. Um, in addition, I have no doubt to the degree workstation management, um, and other basic computer functions, I have no doubt that, um, somebody from Mr. Simmons's office could come over, but they would have to be escorted throughout the entire building, um, and someone would have to sit with them while they were there. And just as another note, we have volume demands right now that compelled me to put in for a third position in the FY27 budget. That's how many devices, that's how many daily tasks. I would be monopolizing one of Mr. Simmons's uh employees for a considerable amount of time. But I don't want to say anything more than that cuz I don't want to come across as alarmist, but it would be a significant lift.
Play from 3:16:42Brian E. Lewis
I didn't mean to put you on the spot, but I appreciate your candor. I yield, uh, Mr. President.
Play from 3:18:26Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you, com- uh, chair. Has the job been offered and accepted already, and are we just discussing salary?
Play from 3:18:34City Staff
The job was offered, the employee countered at a range beyond what any of us can do without council's approval,
Play from 3:18:42City Staff
and we've been waiting to get on a council agenda, so we can figure out what the reply to the employee's counter would be.
Play from 3:18:51Andre M. Boggerty
Okay, and I- that's what I thought, I just wanted to get it for record. I I wanted I and I dare not speak in for the entire council even in amongst our challenges, we've all said I'll speak for myself cuz I don't want to speak for everybody else, but I don't think it would be a stretch that years ago and um a few years ago that we all championed the internal movement of our staff when possible. I I I I don't think that's a far stretch that we want to reward the loyalty of the employees who stayed with us through some crazy, crazy times, right? Through the times when we had to do salary analysis and adjustments and any other thing. My the issue is not retaining the the employee, the issue is proper- properly compensating the employee within a reason and within the scope that that's kind of realistic. I I don't know and I I just don't know where a 30% increase happens in in in this sector, especially government. Again, I'm not opposed, I me- myself Councilman Boggerty, I'm not opposed to going back and revisit um a salary within range. Again,
Play from 3:18:58Andre M. Boggerty
And we've heard the numbers. And we've heard the numbers of what's kind of realistic. I'm not opposed to making it a realistic, competitive salary within that space. In fact, if you saw me communicating, I have a friend who's a master IT person and the numbers they gave me was private and pub- and private and state depending on and that that it depends if if this individual has a CCNA or Cisco certs, etc. So just to let you know, I was making an inquiry, and I'm not saying they don't- they don't have to answer that now. But- but even within that scope and he's a- I won't say what agency where he works, but he's pretty significant. You know, it is around the 80,000 start range in that's private with Cisco certs, and 65. Again, I'm not- I'm not saying we shouldn't do something.
Play from 3:19:53Andre M. Boggerty
I'm just saying that I would ask that you go back to the- to the employee and um and- and look at the range and see if that satisfied. Who- I don't know who the employee is. I value your work. I have an ideal. But at the same time, we got to- we've heard the numbers, and we cannot that $60,000 plus two, plus new staff, that this thing is a snowball and kind of going uh going away. I yield. I see the HR Director is trying to get your attention, so I'll definitely yield to our resident expert.
Play from 3:21:16Naomi Poole
Naomi Poole, HR Director. I just wanted to give my recommendation if that could help with things. Um because to um to Councilman Boggerty's point, um we did make an offer um, and he did counter. So I I would- I think it is appropriate to to respond to this person um so that they know what what steps were taken at this point. I think that's fair. Um so my recommendation is is to have this person go to the current grade of the position of where it stands right now as a network administrator, which would be grade 129. Um, following policy, um this person would get um, well, let me back up. Um with the newly implemented scale, this person is set to receive about $9,500 uh within January and July um of 2026. So understanding that point, um the thought is is that we would give this person um the start of grade 129. Which is-
Play from 3:21:56Andre M. Boggerty
40- Uh if I may, according to this document there's a minimum of 70 to 110? Is that what I'm looking at, FY27 salary range, or no?
Play from 3:22:58Andre M. Boggerty
Look at the issues first paragraph, Dr. Sudler. It says issues first paragraph. Right the last sentence.
Play from 3:23:10Ms. Murney
So there's there's some nuances that are employee-specific that we may not be able to discuss tonight. So to answer your question, Grade 129, Step 1 is 32.65. That's for the scale that goes into effect January 1.
Play from 3:23:17Ms. Murney
So very good point. Annually, give me a second, I'll get my calculator out. I had it written here too, but 32 -- for employee-specific I have it notated, but again we can't go over that in public forum. 32.65 and annually is $67,912.
Play from 3:23:35Ms. Murney
So it goes to... just a moment... I think Mr. Hugg had that in... actually it did go to Step 16... Mr. Hugg had that in his report, but to Step 16 it's $50.87 per hour, which is annually $105,810 on rounding.
Play from 3:24:18Andre M. Boggerty
Can I ask a question? Is that two employees at that rate? So you're talking about $200,000 plus?
Play from 3:25:23Roy Sudler, Jr.
You are. We have two employees that, and they're currently paid, yes.
Play from 3:25:28Roy Sudler, Jr.
Oh, we do, we... She was sick last time so we have it on schedule for December. At least, so we won't call it quarterly, we'll call it triennial...
Play from 3:25:34Lori Peddicord
so I recognize everybody's position in this, and this isn't typically an area where finance would interject. However, I see it come up more more so than I care to admit, and I see the overall impact throughout the city. My recommendation is updating the policy that has been in in effect since the early 2000s to give city management the ability to work within policy, you know, just like you you've all heard me say before, compassion through policy, right?
Play from 3:26:31Lori Peddicord
So, making these decisions, if we had some leeway where we could evaluate the policies with a potential increase, instead of 5%, up to 15% that may impact the internal candidates. You know, there's some nuances that you'd have to work out within within that plan, whereas it would have to maintain within budget. If that increase was not budgeted for, then, no, we can't do that. Um how does it impact going from one bargaining unit to another? There There's some nuances that we'd have to evaluate between HR, City Manager's Office, and myself, but that would be something that could be considered, or I'd recommend to be considered, to come back at a later date. And that would solve the problem citywide, not just on a position level.
Play from 3:26:54Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, uh, Chairman Anderson, and I appreciate um your feedback and suggestion in regards to citywide versus not just one person.
Play from 3:27:56Roy Sudler, Jr.
But my question is, will we be right what any type of tax hike, any type of hike period would have to be How would the constituents, would the constituents have to consume us doing that?
Play from 3:28:03Lori Peddicord
That's why it would have to be eva- evaluated upon application. Okay, I was asked this question last week as well.
Play from 3:28:36Roy Sudler, Jr.
Well, most likely at to some point, the constituents will have to bear some type of
Play from 3:28:41Lori Peddicord
You need to make sure it works within the approved budget that you already have in place. That's That's my caveat there.
Play from 3:28:45Roy Sudler, Jr.
A lot of times the caveat is is is not adhered to, and then we're right back to where we are right now today, right? And trying to reinvent the wheel, trying to put a Band-Aid on something that is obviously broken.
Play from 3:28:54Roy Sudler, Jr.
I think I'd rather go back to this let's deal with this isolated situation here, and then um work together to see how we can get to where we need to be for our employees, and I'm all about employee well-being, health, and, you know, all of that. But also we have a fiduciary duty to our constituents
Play from 3:29:03Roy Sudler, Jr.
not going, I'm not for that. Everyone's feeling it, you know, not just our constituents, I'm feeling it. I'm sure everyone else in the room is feeling it.
Play from 3:29:44Roy Sudler, Jr.
we that need funding to help with, so that we can have economic, uh, development and vitality for downtown Dover and Delaware pe- period.
Play from 3:29:53Roy Sudler, Jr.
So I would like to see us zoom in on some of the needs of our constituents, bringing some relief,
Play from 3:29:59Roy Sudler, Jr.
than constantly I don't want to say it wrong, [laughter] but I'm going to use the word of Councilman Boggerty. If if if if, you know, if the work is there, you're doing the work, I don't mind either paying you what you're worth, but timing is everything.
Play from 3:30:03Roy Sudler, Jr.
And it has to be an equal balance of what we're doing not only for our organization, for the municipalities, but also for what we're doing for our constituents. And I only see our constituents bearing the burden and the blunt of of what we're doing for our for the municipalities. So
Play from 3:30:14Roy Sudler, Jr.
we have to find uh uh uh uh we have to balance that out. You know, they say workplace balance, now we need to go to constituent and policy municipal balance. How are we going to balance that? So, um, you know,
Play from 3:30:50Roy Sudler, Jr.
I love that idea, but I think right now what we're dealing with right now the urgency, I think the only thing that we really may want to really zoom in on right now is getting that back to HR, getting another, cuz cuz our HR expert says most likely will find someone and and I'm and that's not to discredit what we have, but you know business means to compete. And we got to make sure that we're not being unfair or showing favoritism
Play from 3:30:58Roy Sudler, Jr.
and we have to make sure that you know we're doing things in in the right way. Not just for now and employees now,
Play from 3:31:17Roy Sudler, Jr.
but for future employees. Those who want to come and work for our organization. So I think that looking at the future and looking at now, I think that is the best thing to do at my point at this present moment, from my perspective. I yield, thank you.
Play from 3:31:20Off David L Anderson
Then, I have uh an important question because I have a question uh about the motion that may We may need it, even if we did it, we may even need a legal review because um there could be a charter issue um with with this because the position is not technically open. Right. It is pending and an offer's been made and to uh, and now you're starting that this is not a council-appointed position, so now we you'd be interfering with the hiring process as the charter gives to the city manager, and I'm I'm just a little concerned about the particular motion. Do you have any insight on that, um, uh, Ms. Poole?
Play from 3:31:55Kimberly Poole
I mean, I don't. I mean, I think at this time, uh a decision does need to be made, but I think that the decision needs to follow city policy. Um, and then I can leave it up to Dave to respond uh to to your
Play from 3:32:50Brian E. Lewis
Uh Miss uh Poole, I have a quick question for you for clarification. Uh when we talk about um uh following uh the correct policy and bringing it to a grade 129, are we still following the guidelines of the 2023 wage equity study that you had mentioned a couple of minutes ago?
Play from 3:33:22Irene Poole
Um no, we'll be following the actual handbook policy, which states that if a promotion happens, the recipient will receive a 5% increase or the start of the next pay grade, whichever one is highest.
Play from 3:33:47Brian E. Lewis
Okay, understood. I I just needed clarification on that. Uh that's all I have. Uh no questions.
Play from 3:34:02Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. Um just for clarity on my motion, I do believe my motion was um to have the chief um sort of work with HR to try and repost it and and and and and get some more candidates. Um my my uh motion was not to say that HR would take over it or supersede any of the rights of or charter rights, but just more or less as a help, a guide or a tool used, cuz I do I am aware of the charter and I'm aware of, you know, the jurisdictional um restrictions. So, just for clarity, it was it was an offer to say, hey, but truth be told, I believe that our HR department should be um the focal point of any hiring process for the entire city of Dover, because I don't believe that, I mean, if you're dealing with um regardless if you're going to get sued or you're dealing with a workplace issue, it's still going to come back to HR in some form or fashion, and they're the experts. So I don't know if the I notice there's a jurisdictional uh uh distinction, but I don't know does does the police department have their own HR department?
Play from 3:34:14Andre M. Boggerty
And since they don't have their own HR, who's the expert then when it comes to hiring and firing and making sure that all the i's are dotted and all the t's are crossed when it comes to workplace um conditions and workplace um grievances? Who who is the focal point? So in my view, um there seems when we're talking about Team Dover, we're talking about working in unison, I think that we need to demonstrate that, rather than say Team Dover, we need to be Team Dover, and I think part of being Team Dover is we have experts here, we don't want to get jammed up. So I believe that--
Play from 3:35:37Andre M. Boggerty
that it's within the scope of what we need to to do, but I'm not here to say what's what's right, what's wrong. I'm just speaking on on on my behalf and my opinion. So the motion was just to basically have our HR to work with the chief um and and and repost it. But, you know, they could I don't That's that's the motion.
Play from 3:36:16David L. Anderson
Thank you. Uh now uh everybody looks like they've spoken. Uh now let's uh get to uh we have a member of the public who's been patiently waiting. And Well, like I said, members of the committee with uh staff, members of the committee, and then we can go to the public. So, Ms. Paul, you're recognized.
Play from 3:36:33Ms. Paul
Ms. Poole, I have a question for you. So with regards to the way the policy is written, now when and and see and this is where we have a problem. This is why community has a problem with the way y'all are governing their funds. When the policy is written, it says five per- no more than a 5% increase, correct? So when there was the position that came open, so there was a My first question is Chief, you've had these body cameras since about what? 2021, 2022? So this position has been paid at the dollar amount that it's been paid for getting an increase by 5%
Play from 3:36:49Ms. Paul
since you've had these body cameras, and you didn't just get them a year ago. You cannot go through and continue on price-gouging the the public, and you want to go to $30,000 and then it's going to cost $60,000? I'm sorry, but you can give him $30,000 of your 165, matter of fact 170, cuz we can't afford it. When you have a 5% increase and that's your policy, if you go over 5% and and you and you give an increase more than that, does that set us as constituents, the city, up for lawsuits across the board across the board with all employees in the city?
Play from 3:37:44Ms. Paul
The and If they don't Does it or does it not? I'm talking legality here cuz, remember, that's what I that's
Play from 3:38:42David L. Anderson
And And the legal- legality is not her uh purview, so she she will not be able to answer that question.
Play from 3:38:46Andre M. Boggerty
Point of order, Councilman Anderson. The The public is speaking. I think it's this is their time to speak.
Play from 3:38:56Andre M. Boggerty
And if you if you can excuse me, if you can instruct them, if you don't want Ms. Poole to to speak to the matter, just say, "Ms. Poole, please do not answer or refrain," but I don't think getting into a a a
Play from 3:39:02Ms. Paul
You don't ever want people to ask the question and you give the answer straight up on the record. Tonight's the night you can speak, so if she can't speak, answer the question.
Play from 3:39:16David L. Anderson
I would allow I would say I would say a legal question should remain
Play from 3:39:27Ms. Paul
No, because, see, y'all sit here, y'all got money. Y'all Y'all taking taxpayers' dollars and you're playing a
Play from 3:39:28Public Commenter
gain. And you know what? That's not what we doing. That's why I said you're being poor stewards of the taxpayers' dollars. The chief does not have the ability to just come up and say, "We I want to pay this one $30,000." And then you got one applicant? No, sir. You have all kinds of of of resources out there that can fill that position. Go through and get hire people by the day until you get someone to fill the position. You're a You're wrong with this. Don't do this. I don't care what the excuse is. You don't let people strong-arm taxpayers to keep taking their money. That's wrong. So don't come out with no no BS talking about why you need to do it and why it's such an urgency. It wasn't an urgency 2, 3 years ago, so it's not an urgency now. Y'all better go go get Run-A-Job people and go and put them in that position cuz guess what? This ain't what we doing.
Play from 3:39:32Linda Mane
Hello, I'm Linda Mane from the City of Dover. I do have to give credit to the the crew over here that are saying that this is a little ridiculous. My job, every year we only get a 2% raise, okay? $30,000? Sorry, that's a little much. And for me, I actually have to earn and work overtime in order to pay the City of Dover that money just so one person or two people can do a job that I can do or my 2-year-old can do on a cell phone. So, in in in in a manner of speaking, taxpayers don't have it. And you guys taking it away from us in order to pay bills and everything else. Listen to the ones right here that have the knowledge: Ms. Arndt, Mr. Sudler, Mr. Lewis. They're the only ones that are speaking common sense. And I think you need to take that into consideration before you go and, yeah, sorry for the person in the in the in the crowd that's going to be crying their little way home. But guess what? I'm going to be crying my way home if you guys say,
Play from 3:40:15Linda Mane
"Oh, we're going to give this one person $30,000 of a raise." I don't even have that. I have to work my hardest and do the same thing and learn the skills of everyone else in my company so if they go they go home sick, I have to take their place. I don't just take one position in my company. I take many positions in my company and get small paid for it. But I still have to work overtime to learn the skills of everyone else within my company so that I can be a benefit, not you know, a debt. Thank you.
Play from 3:41:22Jesse Riggen
Jesse Riggen, 40 Maple Lane. Um, so I just want to clarify a couple things. It it it sounded to me as we were going through everything that that we we have a position that we are we are now looking at changing based based on the on the uh on the on the job description. Mr. Sudler, you asked if if we could get some clarification from the HR. HR came up and said, "Hey, we should just bump them up to the 129, that seems fair." That's
Play from 3:42:28Unknown Speaker
seems really that seemed like a really fair motion to make. You asked them to get to get feedback from HR. HR gave you feedback, just act on the feedback. That's all I got.
Play from 3:42:49Stefan Kursh
Uh, Stefan Kursh, 437 Barrister Place. Um, hearing the motion that the Chief came down and made, I do wholeheartedly believe that we should pay pay people what they deserve, but looking Do we know where the money is coming from?
Play from 3:43:12Roy Sudler, Jr.
It would come from the department personnel budget, unfulfilled, basically unspent moneys in personnel, their personnel budget.
Play from 3:43:25Stefan Kursh
Right, but if the city is already crying and complaining, and we know that we're in this deficit that we're in, and we're trying to take money that we don't really have, especially if we're trying to, like, be like a person with a 280 credit score to our homeless people out here and use them as, you know, like retention, then how the heck are we going to actually pay them? Like, it doesn't make sense to me. 90,000 a year, right? How much money is in their budget? Do you know?
Play from 3:43:39Stefan Kursh
Higher? So do they have the money to do it? And will they continue to have the money?
Play from 3:44:30Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. That that's been answered, I mean that's—but thank you.
Play from 3:45:09Stefan Kursh
Well, no, I'm asking you specifically. You didn't answer my question. But don't do that with me. I asked you a question. Please be nice, let's be nice.
Play from 3:45:13Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. Um, if you want a specific answer again, I'll ask the staff to present it. Thank you.
Play from 3:45:18Roy Sudler, Jr.
Uh-huh. I'll I'll ask the staff to, once again, give that answer. So,
Play from 3:45:26Stefan Kursh
So, why, cuz I do believe in giving people what they've earned, will we be able to actually continue to pay this officer what he's earned after he come comes out of his frontline position, and make sure that we're actually meeting a correct budget and not having to come through this whole debacle again? Cuz the people are worried about what's going on in their community, and they know that this money is—
Play from 3:45:39Staff Member
The short-term answer is there's probably enough money left in my personnel line in the already approved budget to get us through the rest of this budget year, but it would be incorrect not to say that in subsequent budget years, the personnel budget would have to be adjusted to reflect the change that I'm requesting tonight.
Play from 3:46:10Committee Member
And that's what I thought. And to my knowledge, the City of Dover is in a huge deficit, I mean—
Play from 3:46:24David L. Anderson
But money is tight, but we but we do have a balanced budget and always do. Thank you. All right.
Play from 3:46:37David L. Anderson
Uh you need discussion? All those in favor? Uh on discussion, Councilwoman Arndt?
Play from 3:46:52Tricia K. Arndt
Uh can we restate the motion, and then my question, if I'm understanding the motion correctly, is that the position would be reposted? I'm not so sure that we can do that if we've already interviewed and provided um the job to an applicant.
Play from 3:47:32David L. Anderson
That that is that is the concern, but that is but that's the motion we have, is that correct?
Play from 3:47:44Recording Secretary
The motion was to coordinate with HR to externally post the job, gather a candidate pool for 30 to 60 days, and then revisit the item and bring it back to the committee.
Play from 3:47:49Roy Sudler, Jr.
Okay, thank you. Um thank you for recognizing me, Chairman Anderson.
Play from 3:48:11Roy Sudler, Jr.
Uh would it be permissible for us to make uh we can vote on it, and then we can have the city solicitor, since he's not here tonight, to review whether or not um
Play from 3:48:14Roy Sudler, Jr.
it was permissible for us to do that? If not, then then and then, you know, we couldn't do it, but, you know.
Play from 3:48:24David L. Anderson
Well let's see if it let's see if it passes, but it would be uh—
Play from 3:48:31Roy Sudler, Jr.
That's just fine. I'm okay I'm okay with that. The spirit of it is just to work together as a team to resolve the matter and and and and to stay within the policy and reason. Uh that's that's the that's the objective of the of the motion, the spirit of the motion.
Play from 3:48:38Brian E. Lewis
Um my question is uh would we still be voting on the a original proposal?
Play from 3:48:55David L. Anderson
The nor will we be voting on the recommendation of the HR director if this passed.
Play from 3:49:04Tricia K. Arndt
Just one last point, and I appreciate the spirit of it. Could we have Ms. Poole give us a determination as to whether or not this is a a correct path forward?
Play from 3:49:14Naomi Poole
Oh, okay. Um, Naomi Poole, HR Director. Um, so as it stands, um, he has to So, at this point, for us to post the position, he's going to have to decline the role. Um, there is an outstanding offer on the table right now, and we do have to honor that.
Play from 3:49:22Andre M. Boggerty
All right. Uh, all You've heard the information. All in favor of the motion...
Play from 3:49:44Roy Sudler, Jr.
Hold on, hold on, hold on, hold on. I have another ques- I have further discussion.
Play from 3:49:48Roy Sudler, Jr.
Right, so, so why would we vote on that if we just heard if we just heard if we just heard
Play from 3:49:52Roy Sudler, Jr.
And we just and we just heard that there's an offer on the table, which we were not privileged to prior to, and now knowing that, why would we vote on this when that wouldn't make any sense? So I'm going to...
Play from 3:50:01Andre M. Boggerty
Because because if you withdraw it, that'd be fine. Otherwise, we have to vote it down to clear it.
Play from 3:50:40Roy Sudler, Jr.
That's why I raised my hand. If you give me a moment, I'm going to say I'm going to withdraw it. Um, you know, I thought that Well, I would have appreciated and I would have been receptive if you had said, you know, knowing that do you want to withdraw rather than trying to vote on something knowing that it wouldn't make sense. So anyway, I withdraw if the second...
Play from 3:50:44Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. Is there, uh What is the pleasure of the committee? We can defer this, we can we can vote on How about either of the two recommendations? What is the pleasure of the committee? Dr. Sudler?
Play from 3:51:03Roy Sudler, Jr.
I I move that, um, we defer that back to, um, the committee for another within 30 to 60 days to see where we are with whether the applicant has or the candidate has accepted, uh, the position, and then revisit what we want to do at a later date. And I think our HR, um, expert would would be in agreement with that. I got the thumbs up, so.
Play from 3:51:16Andre M. Boggerty
All right. It's been moved, uh, to defer this by Dr. Sudler for 30 to 60 days, uh, and, uh, it's been properly seconded by Councilwoman Hall. Discussion? Councilman Rocha?
Play from 3:52:11Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Uh, can I, can I make a friendly amendment to, uh, the motion that the, uh, HR Director, uh, keeps Council abreast of what's transpiring?
Play from 3:52:20Fred A. Neil
Thank you. Uh, this is a- is going down to a uh uh Alice in the in the in uh in the Wonderland, going down the rabbit hole, because if unless we do the reconsideration, if he's accepting it, does that mean that we are going to automatically regrade and reclassify...
Play from 3:52:39Fred A. Neil
justify. We don't know that yet. So if he accepts it, does that mean that's automatic that we're regrading based on what was negotiated? So that's an unknown as far as I'm concerned, we don't know that. I yield.
Play from 3:52:39David L. Anderson
Thank you, sir. It would be uh based upon the offer or the counter offer all made, not one that hasn't been approved. If I'm wrong, then Miss Poole, I misspoke, and uh Miss Poole, would you like to... I saw you shaking your head no like...
Play from 3:52:50Ms. Poole
Yeah, so as of now, we're going to follow the policy, um and it's going to be so the network administrative position is a grade 129, that's what the offer will be. It would be at 5% or the start of that grade 129, whichever one is highest. That's what the rate would be. So it's not going to be a regrading, and the retitling has already happened. We've moved it from a senior LAN analyst position to a network administrator. That's already been done. There's no regrading at this point.
Play from 3:53:09David L. Anderson
We don't need one for deferral unless we can't determine it. Uh all those, any opposed? To deferring? Uh motion passes.
Play from 3:54:06David L. Anderson
That brings us to the last item on the agenda. Uh we got, that brings us to uh item 4, uh Proposed Ordinance 2025-17 next next to last, which is uh stay which is the pro item 3, which is the Proposed Ordinance Changes to Strengthen the Current Stormwater Ordinance by Amending Chapter 38, Streets, Sidewalks, Storm Sewers, and Other Public uh Places, Article I, In General, Appendix F, Mr. Mark Nowak. Thank you.
Play from 3:54:16Fred A. Neil
Point of order. Point of order, excuse me, point of order. The uh Deputy City Clerk needs to speak with you on an urgent basis.
Play from 3:55:08David L. Anderson
We don't ever do a roll call on deferring an item. Okay, please go ahead.
Play from 3:55:16Roy Sudler, Jr.
Chair Chairman Anderson, I would just, I would request a roll call just just to make sure we, you know, I know you have a lot of knowledge, but also um our our head clerk our clerk's department is the...
Play from 3:55:45Roy Sudler, Jr.
the focal point for FOIA violations and all kind of violations and making sure that we're not in I defer to the clerk's office. Madam Clerk? If that's I'm sorry.
Play from 3:55:55Mark Nowak
Mark Nowak, Public Works Director. I have with me with me this evening Brynn Wambaugh, the city's stormwater coordinator, and Eddie Kopp in code enforcement. They're both instrumental in the changes and additions to this ordinance. They'll be able to speak on different parts of the ordinance, and if there's any questions about our environmental permitting, Miss Wambaugh can speak on that. Um, the uh city's MS4 permit, which is housed within the NPDES permit-
Play from 3:56:11Mark Nowak
The MS4 the city's MS4 permit, which is housed within the city's NPDES permit, states that the city must maintain an ordinance or other regulato- regulatory means to imple- implement and enforce a program that includes the prohibit- prohibition of unauthorized non-stormwater discharges to the MS4, which is our stormwater system. The state can fine the City of Dover no less than $1,000 and no more than $10,000 a day for an illegal discharge into that system. That includes if the city does it, if a resident does it, or a commercial entity does it. This draft ordinance reorganizes sections to make it more clear for the citizens to understand and just put things in a in a better order.
Play from 3:57:07Mark Nowak
Play from 3:58:34Mark Nowak
The draft also provides a detailed list of unauthorized non-stormwater discharges. It also would create a separate section within Chapter 98 to address sump pumps. The draft ordinance shortens the period to remedy the violation from 10 days to 24 hours. Based upon the above, the staff recommends that City Council approve the recommendations for the ordinance. Are there any questions?
Play from 3:58:35Jason Lyon
water's not contaminated. You can discharge your sump pump into your grass or into an area of that nature and it and if it naturally then, you know, filters through the grass and goes, you know, into the road and into the catch basin, that's fine. But basically we didn't have much, we didn't have, I don't think anything. Did we have anything in the ordinance that addressed sump pumps?
Play from 3:59:12Jason Lyon
No, we had nothing, and it is a issue that code enforcement goes out to a lot, and I think Eddie was probably, kind of instrumental on getting that put in there.
Play from 3:59:27Roy Sudler, Jr.
I'm set. Fine. Thank you. Okay, is there question, discussion, or Yeah, Councilman Rocha.
Play from 3:59:35Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Uh yes. Um the the sump pump, let's say someone is discharging directly in, how long It says you get evidence from the accredited laboratory, we know how much that costs and how often does that have to be? Like it says it expires. I couldn't find out how long. Is it for a year, or you know, what's...
Play from 3:59:42Eddie Kopp
Eddie Kopp, Chief Code Enforcement Officer. Um, so that would be for an initial finding of a sump pump going into um a storm water structure. Um, in my experience, it's not always um water from a sump pump that goes into the storm water structure. We've seen washing machines, dishwashers, RVs, um several other items that should not be discharged into directly into storm water. So it's to tackle that.
Play from 4:00:28Eddie Kopp
So if we if we find it, we suspect it's anything other than storm water discharge, we would require the testing of it, uh, just to make sure we're in compliance with the MS4 permit.
Play from 4:00:45Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Oh okay. I I I thought I I thought I was taking it as if you know your sump pump is going in that, um, that you would have to go get it tested now, and it would be good for a certain amount of time or something like that. But that that Thank you for the clarity. I yield.
Play from 4:01:17Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Councilman. Anyone else? All right, is there a motion, then?
Play from 4:01:29Fred A. Neil
Neil moves for staff recommendations proposed uh forward proposed Ordinance 2025-17 to the City Council for approval.
Play from 4:01:35Roy Sudler, Jr.
Properly moved by Council President Neil, second by uh Councilwoman Arndt to uh approve this and send it to City Council. All those in favor?
Play from 4:01:42David L. Anderson
staff substitute proposed ordinance 2025-21, amending Chapter 106, Traffic, Vehicles, Article 3, Stopping, Standing, and Parking, by adding section
Play from 4:02:28David L. Anderson
Thank you. By adding what? Staff, item 4: staff substitute proposed ordinance 2025-21, amending Chapter 106, Traffic, Vehicles, Article 3, Stopping, Standing, and Parking, by adding Section 106-139, Pedestrian Safety. Councilman Anderson, Mr. Hugg, and Chief Johnson. Now, thank you, Mr. Hugg. Please come forward. Thank you. And Chief, if you'd like to come forward as well. First of all, you've all read the staff substitute, and then there are a couple of clarifying amendments. An amendment that was clarifying amendment that was basically submitted by Dr. Sudler, which are considered friendly amendments by the author.
Play from 4:02:39David L. Anderson
And those amendments are to ensure that just to ensure that what is implied is is spelled out: that sidewalks, private property, and and other pedestrian walkways are not are are not to be construed as covered by this. And also the fines and fees that the of course, we'd already had that the officer has discretion and that stays, but it says that the first time it is a it is now mandatory that the first time be a written warning, $15 for the second, and then the staff recommended 50 would only kick in at the third. Thank you. All right. Mr. Hugg?
Play from 4:03:49Dave Hugg
Thank you, Councilman Anderson. This is basically a redrafting of the ordinance that was originally presented to Council. It incorporates the amendments that were recommended from that last consideration and clarifies a couple of couple of points. And then there are, as you indicated, a couple of I guess they're Council amendments. One removing sidewalks, property, private property, and other pedestrian walkways, and let me see the other one. I think they had the change in the penalty section.
Play from 4:04:39Dave Hugg
I don't know what else I can say about the ordinance. I mean, we've presented it to you. It hasn't changed substantially from what we did what you originally looked at, except that it cleans up a little bit of the language, and, you know, flopped a couple of the—
Play from 4:05:33Unknown Speaker
paragraphs to get better order and and and I don't know what else I would what else
Play from 4:05:45Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. Sounds good. Um, Chief, did you have anything you wanted to add?
Play from 4:05:48Tom Johnson
Again, for the record, Tom Johnson, Chief of Police. As as far as the police department's position on this is, our concern is the traffic safety component. And for I guess to respect Dr. Sudler's let alteration that happened in the last version, we're very comfortable with the with the warning. We just need the mechanism to get people out of harm's way. There's really no interest in trying to see how many people we can cite, and I would probably venture to suggest to council that you'd have to be unlucky enough to have the same cop see you two times in very short order, but you might get nine warnings because each cop is going to be encountering you for the first time. So there's it's probably going to be a long time before you see any significant amount of enforcement action on this, just having the mechanism to direct the person out of harm's way is really the tool that the working officer needs.
Play from 4:05:54Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you. That's, that's definitely fair. I appreciate that, and uh I would also uh like members to uh look at uh that they have uh literally um a couple hundred people, mostly from Dover, not from Wilmington, etc. That's that's uh that are there. So we have this right there, and there's um more coming. So, thank you. Uh now at this time, we're going to uh recognize members for questions. Councilman Lewis, and then Council President Neil.
Play from 4:06:57Brian E. Lewis
I've been asked uh by uh some of my constituents in the Second District to bring this up this evening. Um some of them have concerns uh with regard to the uh issuing of tickets uh to individuals uh standing in the median, uh whatever they may be doing. And uh one of the things they wanted me to bring up, and I don't know if it could be maybe uh uh implemented um in the ordinance or such, but uh they had asked me to uh question the Chief on what his position would be on having warning signs there instead of issuing tickets. For instance, uh a sign in the median uh saying no panhandling. Uh could you give me uh your opinion on that? Because my constituents have contacted me, many of them, and uh wanted me to ask that question this evening.
Play from 4:07:51Tom Johnson
Again, for the record, Tom Johnson, Chief of Police. Um a sign that says no panhandling, and uh this would be a moment where I wished Mr. Griffith was here, but my understanding and knowledge that
Play from 4:08:53Thomas Johnson
Panhandling is a protected right, so to put a sign up that says no panhandling, I think there could be a First Amendment challenge to that.
Play from 4:09:02Brian E. Lewis
Let me interrupt you for a minute there. Let me correct that. Instead of panhandling, no standing. No standing on the median. Let me let me correct that, and withdraw the word panhandling, my mistake.
Play from 4:09:12Thomas Johnson
Oh, right, okay. Yeah, if if you were to put a no stopping or standing sign, which is not an unusual sign to see in in traffic safety, as long as there was an ordinance to back that up, um we would just enforce that.
Play from 4:09:23Brian E. Lewis
Well, the question that they wanted me to ask was, uh, what would your opinion be on putting a no standing, um no stopping on the median right there in the center where some have been accused of of standing and such, opposed to issuing them tickets?
Play from 4:09:40Thomas Johnson
Well, for, um for a sign to have any ability, uh you- when when you're interacting with the public and there's a local rule or a state law or whatever the standard is that we're trying to enforce, you have to have a mechanism to gain compliance. So if we had signs, but the only thing that we could do was would be give warnings
Play from 4:10:02Thomas Johnson
for those that don't comply, my question back to Council would be is, okay Council, what do you want me to do now? Because they're not they're not respecting your ordinance or your request that nobody stops or stands there. So I would I would come back to Council looking for direction once I was able to assess that people were like, 'No, I don't hear your- yeah, I hear your warning, but you can't make me.' And, you know, we're not going to go to war over that, um so then I'm just- they're going to come to me and say, 'What do I do now, boss?' And I would have to come back to Council and say until you put the ability to cite and do an enforcement action, you probably don't want to waste your time with the sign and and something that only involves a warning.
Play from 4:11:01Brian E. Lewis
Well, what makes you think that's not going to happen now if this uh so-called proposed ordinance is passed? Uh you're going to issue a $10 ticket, but uh it's not an arrestable offense. So are the police going to be physically able to remove that person on a city ordinance from the median?
Play from 4:11:40Thomas Johnson
When you start out with any ordinance violation to gain compliance, not only does the enforcement action have to occur, but you also have to abate whatever the condition is. So you can literally physically arrest someone on a local ordinance violation if they fail to comply with the ordinance after you speak to them. Whether you're giving a warning, whether you're going to charge them, they still have to comply. The charging document is to start the um process in motion for them to have their day in court uh if they'd like to have it, but you still have to comply with the officer, and the officer would be authorized to do whatever is necessary to gain compliance, which is always my concern whenever we talk about taking a strong posture with low-level offenses, because sometimes you get that confrontation with someone says, 'Hey, you know what? Today's the day I'm going to take this on, and I'm going to use everything at my disposal.' And then that compels the officer to do what they have to do to do their due diligence-
Play from 4:11:57Thomas Johnson
to do their duty. Now please understand that that's the exception, that's not the norm, but it's not outside the realm of of possibility. So, I I My answer to you is would be roughly the same answer to any low level ordinance that this council has already adopted and put into offense uh effect in any of the offenses section of the city code. We're just going to take the same tact that we would in enforcing any other ordinance, and I will tell you that in most cases, we get compliance. People might not be happy, but most people don't want to physically take on a working police officer, so they follow our advice and say, "Hey, if you don't If you think I'm wrong, let's go to court, and we'll let the judge decide."
Play from 4:12:18Brian E. Lewis
But technically, don't your officers currently have that power under Title 21?
Play from 4:12:45Thomas Johnson
It depends. It depends on exactly what they're doing and, by technical definition of the law, on the median strip you have to be either crossing the street or temporarily stopping while there's a light cycle going on so you can finish crossing the street. There is no um piece about pitching a a tent, setting up your wheelchair, whatever it is that you're doing in the middle of the median because now you want to start soliciting for money. It's a first first amendment protected conduct right. But the idea of being in there it's on the books that we could enforce something, but it's not the inclination of the attorney general or the courts to stand behind that particular statute that everybody keeps bringing up. So, it's a It's It's a It's a dichotomy there because, yeah, it's on the books, but we're not enforcing it because it's not being supported.
Play from 4:12:48Brian E. Lewis
No, I I read all that, and I'm aware of it, but your officers do have that authority right now under Title 21 to do that if they wanted to, correct?
Play from 4:13:49Thomas Johnson
If it was being prosecuted and if the judges would be allowing it, yes. But right now politically that's not reality.
Play from 4:13:54Brian E. Lewis
Okay. So, what makes you think, in your personal opinion, that this ordinance is going to have an impact or make a difference?
Play from 4:14:25Thomas Johnson
Because you are the local authority giving us the authority to exercise this. This is a local law, not a state law. So, I am now empowered to follow through at the at the local level with an ordinance rather than using a state citation or citing the state code.
Play from 4:14:31Brian E. Lewis
But you are aware, as we previously discussed, that it's worth a traffic ticket. It's a $10 fine, and if they don't pay it, you can accumulate 50 of them and nothing's going to happen. The person can go out there everyday for 50, 30, 60 days, whatever the case may be, and the police officers can issue a ticket everyday,
Play from 4:14:42Brian E. Lewis
but nothing's going to happen of it because you can't issue a capias, it's not a criminal offense, and uh the worst uh you can hand it over to the finance department, and they could give it to collections, which is going to cost us money. So,
Play from 4:14:57Thomas Johnson
Well collections typically they only get paid when they find money, and
Play from 4:15:33Thomas Johnson
and if we if we can't get it, if anything that they find is actually kind of a bonus. But I to speak to your larger point, sir, you're 100% right. This is This is like the chronic, um, for years someone that's that's got an alcohol problem, and they're publicly intoxicated. And we cite them to get them off the street and get them protected, put them on an intoxe hold. Rarely, if ever, do they ultimately ever pay that fine, but it's a mechanism to address the situation in the moment. So really in essence, that's what this is, is it gives us the ability to address the situation in the moment. And then for the the repeat offenders, yes, the fines go up and things of that nature, but you're 100% right. This is, um, uh a situation where this will be a little bit of a of a hamster wheel, but at least we have the authority to act in the moment, particularly if somebody calls 911 and they're expecting us to do something about the the hazard that they identify.
Play from 4:15:35Brian E. Lewis
Okay. I have no further questions at this time. I may resurface back to you, uh, but eventually I'd like to hear from the people out in the public.
Play from 4:16:31Fred A. Neil
Um, I want to clarify a lot of comments that we have received, uh a lot of the uh the material that has been presented to us uh by uh the people who have come tonight and some who have not. Now, I want to make sure this is clear, that I understand it. You have indicated that panhandling is not uh an a an offense where a person can be addressed for for panhandling. Is that correct?
Play from 4:16:50Thomas Johnson
That's correct. Um, I I forget the name of the decision, but there's a Supreme Court of the United States uh position that panhandling, as long as it's not intimidating, harassing, if as long as it doesn't address another area of criminality, simply asking somebody for money is a is a First Amendment protected activity.
Play from 4:17:19Fred A. Neil
Okay. So that is only if they're aggressive, is that correct? And that would be a complaint?
Play from 4:17:44Thomas Johnson
Right, typically you'd have a cooperating complainant that would swear out a statement as to what the conduct was. We'd have to make a judgment call if it if it crossed the line to become aggressive, and then we would address it, but it's a very rare occurrence.
Play from 4:17:49Fred A. Neil
Is this uh ordinance against panhandling? Can Does this stop, so or or have you Can you start arresting persons if they're in an intersection for panhandling?
Play from 4:18:01Thomas Johnson
Um, I'm I'm not sure uh I'll go back to my my original statement, Mr. Neil, and I think this will help answer I think the question that you're answering. Where We cannot arrest anybody for panhandling no matter where they are. If someone is in the median in proximity to an intersection, which I believe are the essential elements of this ordinance, that would allow us, not about the activity, just the mere fact that they're there and the idea that there's an inherent traffic hazard and a safety risk, and that's all that we're addressing, and that's
Play from 4:18:17Thomas Johnson
all I or the police department are standing up for as it relates to this ordinance. The other issues are issues that exist in in other places because it's part of the larger issue of people in at-risk conditions. Folks are going if they want to ask for money from the sidewalk on any property where the property owner doesn't complain about it, um I mean I've been solicited in front of stores, you know, it it it's not just traffic, it's other places. All I'm saying on behalf of the police department is one, we're not arresting anybody for panhandling. We're only trying to clear the high-risk areas of major traffic intersections of people that have no chance if there's a crash.
Play from 4:18:51Fred A. Neil
Now, I in reading the the document and the penalties, the first penalty is just a warning, is that correct?
Play from 4:19:18Thomas Johnson
And even if it wasn't in the uh in the ordinance, sir, uh that's just basically our MO. We always start out on low-level offenses with some type of a warning.
Play from 4:19:25Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yes, thank you uh, Chairman Anderson. Uh Chief, uh I'm looking here at Section 106-139, dash, C-E, Section A uh where it says limitation of occupancy-
Play from 4:19:59Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
of medians or the adjacent roadway at intersections serves to prevent driver distraction, traffic congestion, congestion, uh delay of traffic, and accidents, especially on median strips um or the in the roadway itself.
Play from 4:20:11Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
My I need a definition or if you could explain what the adjacent roadway at intersections, what that means.
Play from 4:20:23Thomas Johnson
Yeah, that would be the con- the connecting street to to the intersection, sir.
Play from 4:20:30Thomas Johnson
So if um if you were to talk about DuPont Highway, um MLK would be the connecting street or any of the other streets that intersect with that main roadway, or that main artery.
Play from 4:20:59Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
So um so I understand where it says limited limit- limiting the occupancy of medians. How do we limit occupancy of the adjacent roadway? Would that be Would that be including the sidewalk?
Play from 4:21:09Thomas Johnson
No, sidewalk is um absolutely a um a pedestrian traffic way that's free to everybody to transverse.
Play from 4:21:20Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
I just don't understand I mean, I understand from the road aspect of it, but I don't understand why that's there.
Play from 4:21:26Thomas Johnson
Okay. Um I just gave it a second read-through from the beginning: "Limitation of occupancy of medians or the adjacent roadway." Um I'm going to double check and get back to you
Play from 4:22:01Thomas Johnson
but I'm going to I'm going to stick my neck out a little bit and say that there is roadway directly adjacent to the median which is the space between where the physical median stops and the lane of traffic begins, and it's usually marked with a painted line. So that's a pretty narrow strip of earth that's adjacent to the um you know, occupied median or the adjacent roadway. So that's the road surface right next to the median that might not necessarily be in the lane of traffic depending on how DelDOT painted the lines.
Play from 4:22:08Roy Sudler, Jr.
Got it. Got it. Understood now. Okay. Um And then, my next question would be uh and I I I couldn't really determine whether or not that this ordinance um fines the the the folks that are driving and giving money to the panhandler. Uh could somebody, you know, could you share some uh information on that? Because I I tried looking for it. I didn't see where the um the the operator of the car, if they were giving money to the panhandler, where they would be fined as well. What section would that be in?
Play from 4:22:29Thomas Johnson
That's down in um I think you're referring to Section D, sir. Uh, "No operator of a vehicle shall park, stop, or leave a standing vehicle or permit a passenger to leave it on any city street where prohibited or suddenly decrease the speed of said vehicle or deviate from a traffic lane uh for the purpose of responding to persons violating this ordinance." Um that is a reference and and this is um a section that's modeled after another community in Delaware's uh similar ordinance. It's a recognition of the idea that when someone spontaneously decides that they want to address activity that they're seeing on the median, and clearly
Play from 4:23:24Thomas Johnson
uh I think in the vast majority of cases that does bring us back to the idea that when people are requesting money uh or holding a sign and someone's inclined to do that, that suddenly stopping vehicle in and of itself for the motorists behind them that aren't expecting it, that in and of itself becomes the traffic hazard that we're that we're trying to prevent. So if someone wanted to go and do that in order to not be in a violation of this ordinance, their correct behavior would be to go park
Play from 4:23:58Thomas Johnson
in someplace safe, and then they could they could meet that person. And if they want to give them something, that's fine. But the idea is don't just suddenly stop in the middle of a traffic flow where nobody would be anticipating a vehicle to stop. That way, you don't get a chain reaction uh accident somebody hits you from behind. Um that's generally what that section is designed to address.
Play from 4:24:36Thomas Johnson
Right, yeah, certainly like with the other sections, it's a warning, but I I think there's a fine schedule for that.
Play from 4:25:20Brian E. Lewis
happen anyway. I mean, if there was a green light or whatever, I don't think anybody's going to like stop in the turning lane or whatever to try to you know. I I've never seen that.
Play from 4:25:25David L. Anderson
Um, for the record, the for the record, the Chief of Police is not inventing observed behavior that he has seen himself in the presence of Council.
Play from 4:25:38Brian E. Lewis
All right. Uh, okay, those are my questions. Thanks, Chief. I I yield.
Play from 4:25:44Tricia K. Arndt
Thank you for recognizing me. Um, so I I don't have any questions at this point. Um, I've spoken to a lot of folks in my district, um, which I'm sure we we all have, and we've all heard a lot of testimony here on various evenings. I've spoken to a lot of people in my neighborhood. Um, I live downtown. Um, not that we're solicited often, but we're in that environment, um, where we do see folks who who need uh certainly, assistance. Um, I'm going to give my thoughts tonight, and then I'm going to sit back and see if anyone changes my mind. Um, so I've I've I've written it down just to keep myself straight. Uh, so while I share the very real safety concern about pedestrians standing in narrow medians in heavy traffic areas, this ordinance has the potential to create more problems than it solves. I'm uncomfortable moving it forward. I understand that the intent is safety, not punishment. Unfortunately, in practice, issuing fines to individuals who have no means to pay is neither effective, nor does it effect change. It also exposes the city to potential litigation without delivering meaningful improvements to public safety. This was a huge concern of mine of putting the city at risk.
Play from 4:25:52Tricia K. Arndt
I appreciate and value the Chief's insights and operational on operational challenges. I want to acknowledge my colleague's sincere effort in bringing this issue forward, and his grace and professionalism through the public criticism. The safety risks he identified are real. Thank you, Councilman Anderson. At the same time, I call on those who oppose this ordinance on moral grounds to stay engaged in ways that genuinely help, by regularly visiting the areas where people are standing in medians, and entice them to safer locations, offer resources or services to address root causes. We all share the same goal: a safer community. I believe we can pursue that goal more effectively through collaboration and compassion than through this ordinance. I yield.
Play from 4:27:23Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you, Councilwoman. Uh, Councilman Boggerty, you're recognized.
Play from 4:28:20Andre M. Boggerty
Thank you, Council. I mean thank you, uh Chair. I said on the onset of my tenure on Council, and I said on the onset on this ordinance, that I agree with the safety aspect, but in no way uh I am supportive of fining anyone, um uh uh fining anyone, especially individual
Play from 4:28:24Andre M. Boggerty
duals, we find ourselves in conditions such as having to panhandle. I'm not the judge and jury of who's legit legitimately in need versus those who may be panhandling for other needs. That's not that's not my moral ground to stand on. My my primary concern is safety. I was last night driving home from Council, there was an individual panhandling in all black, and uh I was able to see him and and it does cause a concern. My my challenge is, again, while I want what uh I I echo I didn't know she was uh Councilwoman Arndt was going to say that, I echo the the intent for safety. The other [laughter] banter, I I don't I don't want to get involved in that. So with the fine and knowing that it's kind of moot at best, I I I can't support. What I will do is ask that the community does its best to, no pun intended, police each other. Um it is dangerous. Um it's not safe. And I just hope, as I said, that I or you are not the ones who have to be a part of or witness an unfortunate incident involving someone standing in a median. I don't have an issue and can't have an issue with the with panhandling. I just pray that it's done in a safe place. For those who find themselves in unfortunate sister- situations, I'm praying for you.
Play from 4:28:41Andre M. Boggerty
But on the grounds of me not believing that everything should be subjected to a fine, with the reality is that fine is not really going to be enforced and bog down our already challenged-staff police department um who essentially would have to park their car and impede traffic to enforce the issue, [laughter] I I just I just hope we can find another way. Unfortunately, Councilman Anderson, I applaud what your intent is, but I we we I am in agreement that we may not this this is probably not the path for for for me. I yield.
Play from 4:30:15William Shevock
I've heard a lot of both ways and I feel for these people, but the question that I really have: who are these people working for? I've observed twice uh that a vehicle pulls up in close proximity where these people are almost falling off the center median because it's not even flat. They run over to the curb. They've got a bag. They dump all their money in a bag, and that individual goes back and gets in the car and leaves. Now, to me, that's a job that they're doing, and they're causing a safety concern. If I were to come down there and they fall off of there and I run across them, who's going to be fined or whatever? I'm going to be sued because I hit them. If they want to panhandle, let them do it
Play from 4:31:10Mr. Shevock
off of the center of the road. They don't belong there. Um, and if you watch some of them, they can't even hardly stand up, upright as they're trying to walk down that center the in the road. So I'm in full support of to get these people off the street, or off the road. I don't care if they're on the street, on the curb, over on the sidewalk. That's fine, but they have no business to be standing and trying to walk in the center of the road. Thank you.
Play from 4:31:58Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yeah, it's not I I just wanted to put on the record, um, you know,
Play from 4:32:53Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Oh, okay. Um, I just wanted to put on the record, um, you know, my thoughts. Um, and believe it, believe it or not, you know, panhandling, you know, living with that all my life, I I have no problem with with the panhandling, um, and never really gave it a second thought, you know, when they when when it was around Del Tech and areas where it was a lot flatter. Um, but when I saw the individual with the wheelchair down by Walgreens and CVS, that that individual was about to get hit by a car, and we don't we don't need to wait for that situation to happen. We've got to make sure that we protect those individuals. They may not be thinking clearly or whatever it is, but they just have to pick a different area or a spot away from the median to do what they do. You know, and and um I I don't think it would I think there's people that still would support them, but not in the in the median area. Safety is first. And and and it doesn't matter to me whether or not we have statistics, because statistics means we acted too late. Um, let's be proactive. Um, maybe this is not the way it's written perfect or whatever, you know, we'll have to think about that while we're making our decisions, but as far as the safety of the individuals um standing in the middle of the road, particularly if they want to take a a wheelchair or a person in a wheelchair is trying to do it, not necessarily uh I think we have to protect that individual. And with that said, I yield.
Play from 4:33:46Donyale M. Hall
Thank you for recognizing me. Um, last night I stated that, um, when we were talking about, um, the signs, ironically, about, uh, the strictly enforced, that, um, I didn't think that that was going to bring about the changes that we need to see happen.
Play from 4:35:14Donyale M. Hall
And, uh, we've had a lot of conversation around, um, possible strategies. And I'm not really comfortable that, um, what's been put forward here has, um, the potential to, um, do what its intention is and, um, to see, to Councilwoman Arndt's point, um, things not being able to be fineable and enforced and all of that.
Play from 4:35:39Donyale M. Hall
Um, I think there's a, there's a, a better solution to this, and we talked a little bit when I asked the question earlier about, uh, the MPO and, um, who could pay for those signs, and I think that's a very good, uh, solution to this, um, that we could post something that says, "Don't stand here," and identify the spots where it is safe to stand. And, um, that way it, um, gives a, a level of appreciation for those who are asking for compassion and, uh, someone to give charity. It gives them, uh, a clear indicator where it's safe to stand and do that.
Play from 4:36:12Donyale M. Hall
And I, I just, I don't think that, um, while I'm concerned about the safety in the medians, I don't think that we've explored some other options. And one of the things that I would really like to see, I know that, uh, when officers are called out and, um, there's, um, an indication, I, I have a mentally ill brother, and anytime he's had, um, an infraction with the law, I indicate that, um, if there's an officer that needs to be brought out, that, um, he has a, a mental health issue. And they, and they put that person, that's a support person, inside of the vehicle and brings them along.
Play from 4:36:52Donyale M. Hall
And so if we have individuals, and, um, I, I had a, a conversation here recently, um, with someone who, uh, stopped and, and went over to someone who was, you know, in that state in the median, and just said a few kind words, and that person moved on. I think, you know, there, there has to be some level of compassion that's put into this. And the thoughtful solution to a lot of this could be, you know, how about we have some folks that are willing to go along with an officer that responds to a call where someone is in a condition like that, to offer them some services or, you know, something
Play from 4:37:31Donyale M. Hall
so when they do respond and they can respond under Title 21, they could at least have a, a, a means to say, "Hey, you know, here, here's some things that could help you. But please, for your safety, can we move to the other side of the road?" And I believe that people are amenable to that. I've stopped myself.
Play from 4:38:11Donyale M. Hall
And, um, I've been concerned, and I've been very acutely aware of the fact that this thing exists, and until we, as people in our community, band together and come out and say there's an act of human kindness that's involved here, that if we are not in a position to feel afraid, that we could start making some of these changes, just by being able to say, hey, um, it's not safe to stand here. And those little signs that, you know, we said would be beneficial inside of a strictly enforced with a, uh, residential area, why not put those signs up that say it's not safe to stand or or, uh, dwell here. This is a point where we can move on, and we can start doing some things that, um, create boundaries where people can't readily access those those median strips. So that's my two cents, um, for what it's worth. I yield.
Play from 4:38:31Michael Garfinkel
I I just want to say bravo, kudos, and laurels to you, Mr. Chairman, for bringing this forth. We have to protect people. This is a safety issue. And And every time I see people on those median strips, look like they came out of a seed pod from Night of the Living Dead, cuz they're on drugs and everything else, they're going to fall over. I've seen that actually happen. A person just falls over. They're going to get hit by a car. They're creating a problem. I don't think this goes strong enough, but this is a great start. Safety is job one of this council. And so this this is a good start, and thank you for putting it forward.
Play from 4:39:40Roy Sudler, Jr.
Uh, thank you, Chairman Anderson, for right- for recognizing me. When I first brought this to your attention, and we were to work on it together, um, our my first initial in- impression was that we were just solely, we're going to focus on getting them off the median and getting them the help that they needed. Um, exploring other cities like New Jerseys and what New Jersey and what they're doing, Newark, New Jersey, and what they're doing as far as ticketing individuals and for those who are giving people money because they were it could be proceed as delay of of traffic. Now, when you have senior citizens, which one day we all will be if we're if we're lucky enough to to live long enough, um, it's hard to see at night. What happens if you hit them? Who's going to be responsible? Would the city be responsible, or would you be responsible? And if you kill them, that's something you have to live with on your mind for the rest of your life. So safety is top priority, although I can see how you can see that this could be disguised as
Play from 4:40:34Andre M. Boggerty
as um trying to go after panhandlers. But really, when I brought this to Councilman Anderson, I brought it as this is a safety issue. Everyone has their challenges in life that they're dealing with. Okay? So let's get them the resources, let's usher them off the median and get them the resources. I didn't know that an ordinance would be drafted so quickly, um, and the reason why I offered the friendly amendment was because it was vague initially, but I concur with the spirit, the initial spirit, because the initial spirit derived from me as well as as Councilman Anderson, in conjunction with um conversations from the community and concerns from Michelle Paul as well. People have to be safe. This is about safety. I can I'm always 100, safety for me. Um however, ticketing uh you know, we have to have some kind of enforcement. So, I think that we need to work on how would we properly enforce this whereas you know I think the sign is a great idea. Maybe we can start off with the signage, seeing if the sign is will help deter them. And then with um grassroots initiative like support, like our Opioid Use Disorder Task Force is going to um have an outreach and we're going to go to the median as we're talking about, and we're going to say, "Hey, this is not a safe space. But let's usher you to a safe space and get you the resources that you need so that we can help you become a more productive citizen, or help you with whatever you're dealing with." I think everyone can resonate with the fact of safety first. You have to That that that is right there. And when And when you're driving, no matter if you're in a F-350 or or or or a Porsche, when someone is in the median, that 1 second that they've obstruct your view, you can get in an accident. So let's put some signs there. Let's even put a QR code that for those who want to donate money, you can pull out your phone, hit the little QR code and later donate money to the organization which whether it's for whether it's the food bank, whether it's mental health, whether it's physical health, and you'll know that the money is going to go there, right? And it's safe. But this is about safety and I concur that we need to do something about getting these individuals off the median. I don't care if you're if you're asking for money or just walking up and down the median cuz that's what you want to do. But it's not safe. And I'm going to take a stand on this as well. It's not safe. I don't agree with everything uh about the finding, but I do agree with the fact that it's not safe to be walking up and down the median, you are obstructing the view of traffic, and not only obstructing the view of traffic, but when individuals go to manually go into their pock-
Play from 4:41:48Andre M. Boggerty
to retrieve money is a potential to delay traffic in conjunction with create road rage. Cuz you know people want to go beep, beep, beep, you know, light's already turned. I've been guilty of it myself, you know, I count my little six seconds, "Okay, you took too long, let's go." Right? So, bottom line is we had to we had to take safety um a little bit more serious when it comes to medians and we have to and we have to be good stewards for the pedestrians. So, the ticketing may not be the way, but the core root of the issue is correct. People have cannot be on the median. It's unsafe not only for them, but it's unsafe for the driver. And I don't want to hit someone and have that on my mind. You know, it's enough stuff that was on my mind, I don't want that on my mind. And I don't think anyone else, I don't think your grandma wants to or your grandfather. I mean come on, I mean when is when is enough enough? There's a time and place for every everything, and there's a time to give, just like there's a time to receive, and there's also a time where you know things are done properly. So, I I don't agree with allowing people being on the median. I do agree with the signs. Let's start maybe with the signs and see where that takes us. And then and then go from there. But I'm not going to support, even though I made the amendment, cuz I made the amendment cuz it was too vague, I'm not going to support the ordinance, but I do support what Councilwoman Arndt, I mean Councilwoman um Hall has brought forth and and with that said, I like to make a motion that we start with putting a a sign that no stopping, no standing on the median and start there cuz that's low cost.
Play from 4:45:04Andre M. Boggerty
Let's see let's see what kind of response we get, and at the same time we as the community who's out here saying that, you know, um you know, ticketed the poor, or you you know, all that, let's let's see y'all out there helping us when we start to do these uh um provide resources and and usher them off the median. I need y'all there helping us as well helping us well, which I know a lot of people are. So, I'm just letting people know. I think that's the way to go. So, with that said, I I move that we provide a no stopping, no standing um with no penalty at this time like a pilot program, right? We have pilot programs all the time, and then uh and and and that's it.
Play from 4:46:39Roy Sudler, Jr.
Okay. It's been moved and seconded that we are going to uh start a pilot program of no
Play from 4:47:34Julia M. Pillsbury
So that at least if the police come by and they see someone, they can remind
Play from 4:48:17Andre M. Boggerty
Is the second amenable to that? I mean, cause cause I'm going to do these in order.
Play from 4:48:31Roy Sudler, Jr.
I think if you do that, we base it upon uh, and we don't need this, we base it upon Title 21 um for the signage. Uh and then if we don't get compliance, we have to have something enforceable, which which will which will bring this right back.
Play from 4:48:35Andre M. Boggerty
A later date. Let's let's see how this works and see how the community can help us rally to, so we don't need it to be enforceable with with with um you know penalties. There's other ways, I think, to get to change behavior and get compliance.
Play from 4:48:49Daniel Shevock
A lot of these intersections already have signs there that the state has put there. Some of them are already knocked down. Uh it's either left turn only or whatever. I don't know where you can put these signs through the concrete. You'd have to have the state probably do that because these intersections are in state intersections.
Play from 4:49:33Roy Sudler, Jr.
Councilman Hare. Personally, it's like the chief said, we need to pass something that gives him the authority to move people, which this would do. This was, I'd like to remind you, this was written ordinance was written by a Supreme Court bar attorney. He's he's done this successfully, and uh, and by the way, Denver's had a lot of success with this, as well as some other places.
Play from 4:49:51Andre M. Boggerty
We have the community, I don't mean to drop you, but we do have the community that want to be heard.
Play from 4:50:14Roy Sudler, Jr.
Yes, and we're going to hear from council, then we're going to alternate um between um peo- between people here and between peop- where we got a lot of people online. And we're going to alternate between people here and people online, and we're going to do uh one each. That way everyone can get through fairly, and we'll get out of here by midnight. All right. Uh, Councilwoman Arndt.
Play from 4:50:45Tricia K. Arndt
Thank you for recognizing me. Just uh for discussion on that motion, I think um taking a look at what signs are permissible, um there are signs standards, and whether or not we can put a a no stopping, standing sign in a median when if a median is designed to be that refuge for someone crossing the street may not be appropriate um to put a sign there saying that someone can't stand there when the median was designed for someone to stand there until the light changes. So just putting that out there that we may want to consider the the technical aspects uh and the regulations on signs before moving that forward. I yield.
Play from 4:51:05Roy Sudler, Jr.
Yeah. Agree. It can be done, but we may have to, like, if you if you go that way, it's
Play from 4:51:33Roy Sudler, Jr.
Okay, hold on. We're going to go by the list. Madam Clerk, please read.
Play from 4:51:52Miss Mack
Why do Well, I still have an opportunity to say something? It's it's based on what they were saying about the median.
Play from 4:51:58Miss Mack
I want us to keep in mind what the lady from MPO said. I I mean, she said some great stuff. Thank you, Councilwoman Arndt, for bringing that up. You cannot put that sign there. I think about the ladies that and the elderly people that live
Play from 4:52:06Miss Mack
Luther Towers. They don't make it through through a cycle due to you know, they're our elders. They have to wait two light cycles sometimes to get across. So I don't think you should put that sign, because then, you know, with your fines and everything, you want to charge people. I also want to say that I am dedicated, cuz I'm doing it now,
Play from 4:52:20Miss Mack
is I met a lot of the medians, especially where Everybody in the median, whoever said it, is not on drugs.
Play from 4:53:03Miss Mack
And I'm going to say that again. Everybody on the median is not on drugs. But those that are leaning, that appear to me to be on drugs, I'm out there asking them, "Can you get off the median, please? You're the reason why I'm losing my voice and my back is going out, because I'm advocating for you, but you're leaning. Can you please get out?" And I want to say big shout-out to those officers. I don't know who you are, but we do have
Play from 4:53:08Miss Mack
Dover PD officers, actually without your ordinance, moving people off the median. So my question to you today is, why do we need an ordinance if they're already doing their job? Throw the ordinance out. If it's about safety, everyone do their jobs.
Play from 4:53:26Roy Sudler, Jr.
All right, thank you. And now um let's hear from online. And then we'll go back to the next person on your list. Or the first person on your list.
Play from 4:54:07City Clerk
Give me a second. Go to a second person, and let me try to He's tried twice and couldn't unmute, so
Play from 4:54:20Miss Shelfo
All right. The first thing is, yes, Dr. Sudler, when we started having this discussion, we did start having this discussion um with regards to safety in the meeting medians for individuals. But when we started having this discuss-
Play from 4:54:44Ms. Paul
session. We did not start having this discussion for an ordinance. Now, with that being said, we have we have, um, titles under 21, under title 21, where we have where it can address public intoxication. So those ones that are knee- kneeling and kneeling out into the, um, into the roads and the streets, they have already have a state ti- a state code, a state law, already on the books that can be enforced right now. We have other laws that are on the books under title 21 that can be enforced that are outside of loitering. Those, you know, if you're dealing with obstruction of view, you know, um, disorderly conduct, all of those titles are under 21. The same way people can stack laws, it does not have to be loitering. You have about 10 different laws for one infraction that you can cite someone for, and they are legal laws that are on the books. For those particular laws that are out there, when we're talking about, "Oh, we need," we do not need an ordinance for something that's already there. And then what does an ordinance do? An ordinance is a lower level of a state law. So, therefore, you are making the actual penalty less than what it would be if you use enforced the state law. And the state law, you don't have to go through and wonder if you're violating someone's rights. Now, we're talking about a loitering law. There are 50 million other laws that the police department can utilize. And with regards to police officers right now, they have been doing their job with regards to having people get out of the medians. They just did it the other day on Route 8. Why? Because there was an accident there right between the CVS and the Food Lion shopping center. And guess what? Those officers were already out there with the with the cars that were actually in the accident, and you had another officer in the median saying, "You know, you shouldn't be out here," or, "You know, why don't you go stand over there and do that because it's dangerous here?" And you know what? They weren't rude, they weren't ignorant, they just redirected them. It's happening already. You have officers that are doing their job. So, if you want to enforce it, stop trying to make it seem like this is something that you have no control over. Chief Johnson, you have control over this, and you know that there is no ordinance that is needed to enforce the law. And an ordinance does nothing but minimize. It makes it a lower offense where you don't where it's not enforceable. It's not going to go in front of a judge. Some of these, some of the individuals that you need that are all leaning over and need help, they need to be redirected, and some of them have to be forced into treatment. You can't do that with an ordinance.
Play from 4:54:54City Staff
I can't. I I've asked every single person to put their hand up and unmute. They were asking early on, but now we haven't I haven't seen anyone, so I'm
Play from 4:57:55Roy Sudler, Jr.
Some to those online, uh, if you, uh, would you please, um All right, would you please get unmute?
Play from 4:58:11City Staff
I've clicked their unmute buttons to request unmute. I've sent messages, direct messages, to each of them. So I don't know what to say.
Play from 4:58:23Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. We'll come back to them, because what they have to say is, uh, just as important, uh, with because everybody's opinion is just as important. So next, please, on the, uh, list.
Play from 4:58:38Adam Windett
Good evening. My name is Adam Windett. I'm a resident of downtown Dover. I also own a business here, and I'm asking the council to vote no on this ordinance. There's a lot of points to be made in opposition to this ordinance, and there's a lot of people here to make them. So I'll focus on just one, and it's a principle of democratic government. When the government wants to restrict rights or expand police authority, the government must prove it's necessary. If the city claims there's a public safety problem, it must show real evidence and data. If the city proposes a new ordinance, it must show the ordinance will actually work. And if the city is going to um The city must show that the ordinance won't violate people's rights or make things worse. The city must also prove that the stated objective of this ordinance cannot be achieved through less restrictive means. And so far, the city hasn't met that burden, and for that reason and many more that others will present tonight, I'd urge you to vote no. And in my remaining time, I would just like to make two points. Um there's a mention of signage, um and also an expressed concern that drivers um would be unaware of people in the median. You can put up a sign warning drivers as they approach median: people in the median. Uh so I put that out to to your consideration. And then also, I just want to address You see this at Leg Hall. Um you see it in local government. Um it's 11:00 at night. People have been here for for 5 hours, and it can't be a coincidence. It can't be a coincidence that every time that there's a bill or an ordinance that's going to draw public scrutiny, that's going to have all these people who come out here for comment, that it's always last on the agenda. And and I think it's a tactic to discourage people from coming out, because if you keep people here for 5 hours, away from their family, on a week night when everybody has to get up and work tomorrow, it's it's a tactic to avoid scrutiny, to discourage people from coming back. And I think if you have courage and you know that you're going to have a controversial bill or a controversial ordinance, um that's going to be presented, put it first. Have some courage. Thank you.
Play from 4:58:57City Staff
I have Mr. Steve L. Okay. his hand up, and I told him to unmute, and he hasn't.
Play from 5:01:07Belinda Mayne
Belinda Mayne, City of Dover. Um, before this meeting, on my way home, I approached a panhandler on the middle of street, and of course it was raining. I asked the guy,
Play from 5:01:39Belinda Mayne
I said, "Show up at the meeting tonight." I said, "It'll benefit you in the end."
Play from 5:01:48Belinda Mayne
I said, "Because right now, people are being crucified for doing good work, helping people that need it."
Play from 5:01:51Belinda Mayne
I said, "If you don't show up, guess what? You're going to be punishing yourself, cuz there isn't going to be anybody donating money to you, because they're going to be charged $10 every time."
Play from 5:01:56Belinda Mayne
So if that this passes, then that means every single thing that you guys put out there, with your churches giving food to the homeless, to the helpless, guess what? You should be fined for every single person that shows up.
Play from 5:02:03Belinda Mayne
For everyone on this council that doesn't panhandle, or help a panhandler, sorry, you should be fined.
Play from 5:02:36Belinda Mayne
Not only $10, but $20. You want to know why? Because you guys are the ones that are going to vote something in that shouldn't be there to begin with.
Play from 5:02:41Belinda Mayne
People are out here for help. If we don't offer them help, and we penalize them for it, what what kind of person are you?
Play from 5:02:47Belinda Mayne
You're supposed to be pastors and people of God and, "Oh, God is great" and everything else. Yes, He is. But He also said, "Help those that can't help themselves."
Play from 5:02:52Belinda Mayne
And you want to know what? You're not helping them by penalizing them, and then penalizing the people that are trying to help them.
Play from 5:02:58Belinda Mayne
If I want to give McDonald's to a homeless guy on the street, guess what? Fine me $10. Fine me $50. You want to know why? Cuz that gives me the option to go help five additional people,
Play from 5:03:03Belinda Mayne
But you're not going to penalize every single person who's going to go against this.
Play from 5:03:39Belinda Mayne
Because we're all going to stick together, and the group is only going to get bigger. And it's going to get bigger, and it's going to get bigger, and you're going to be the one left behind.
Play from 5:03:43Belinda Mayne
As they say, when you run a race, try not to lose, but if you do, be a good sport.
Play from 5:03:48Belinda Mayne
Because we're helping people. We're out here doing what we should be doing as human beings. Not crucifying people, but helping people, offering help.
Play from 5:03:52Belinda Mayne
And you obviously don't want to do that. So fining people, fining homeless people for popping tents into in the forest, guess what? Please let them do it. You want to know why? Because that's what they know.
Play from 5:04:00Belinda Mayne
But then go out and help them and go, "Look, we don't find this appropriate. Let's help find you get you a place to live, get you food in your stomachs."
Play from 5:04:06Belinda Mayne
"Let's see what we can do for you, so that you can do stuff for us without any cost, but making your life better."
Play from 5:04:37Fred A. Neil
was was originally ideas that you had to add your two cents that made it worse. Thank you.
Play from 5:04:44Andre M. Boggerty
And by the way, it does not fine people for helping people, nor for people for asking for money. That's a myth.
Play from 5:04:50Shaniqua Miles
I just wanted to come Shaniqua Miles, Dover, Delaware. I just wanted to come and just say something very, very simple. Okay? Just my own personal feelings. Compassion isn't a crime. Survival isn't a crime. Compassionate people aren't criminals and people facing poverty aren't criminals. Our community needs support, not fines. That's it. Have a good evening.
Play from 5:05:10David Green
I'm David Green from Dover, Delaware. I'm going to be honest, I really think that this ordinance is a bunch of bull. I'm part of the homeless community for Dover. Part of the problem that we have is that a lot of people out here, like Miss Smaka made a point earlier, that not everybody out here on these corners are on drugs or alcohol. I'm one of those. The problem that we also run into is that people that are out here doing the right thing are trying to get into hotel rooms because it's cold. Feed themselves or their families, me, my fiance is 15 weeks pregnant as of today. I've been sitting here trying to find housing, shelter, and a job. I've even been trying to go to school. The other problem we have is, and I've made, I've talked to a couple of people about, and they've all agreed. We have so many different intake programs here in Dover. There is nowhere near enough outreach. And I feel like part of solving this problem is making sure that there is more outreach programs to help those that want to help themselves and do the right thing.
Play from 5:06:01David Green
So penalizing people for being out here on these corners trying to get money to feed themselves, their families, their kids, or to even better themselves or do what they need to get the basic necessities that are required to live, they shouldn't be penalized for that. Thank you.
Play from 5:07:10Robin R. Christiansen
Do you remember that I asked you to get in call my office so we could find your DD 214 that you said you are a military veteran and you have yet to do so? You have yet to do so. So I'm making that offer to you again that we will help you find your DD 214 so that we can connect you with some services.
Play from 5:07:28Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
I I would uh, thank you, Mr. Mayor. I'd also, there are also other services available um regardless of that or to help with that, so uh, even if veterans isn't the way you go, so don't leave um before the meetings, don't leave when the meeting's over. We can talk about this. Thank you. Uh, next on the list.
Play from 5:08:03Eve Derman
You said my name the first time, right. And Mayor, I agree with that. Um, I also agree with my fiancé that because I am currently 15 weeks pregnant and he's trying to house it. I can't currently get my birth certificate or a state ID because of this problem. One thing I need from everybody is to help find us or help get us into housing. We have a baby on the way. I've asked people around town, not just a man here, but a friend of ours to get us into a hotel room. He declined. And my DO2 and everything from the military, I can't get back because I lost it in a fire. I have asked people in Minnesota, Wisconsin, and a couple of other states that I have family in who are also in the military to help me get it back. Nothing. He can even tell you, I have had multiple family members, even from not biological, try to help me to get my shit back. Ain't going to happen. Because it's all burnt of me trying to save a child from a burning fire. Step into our shoes and please help us, that's all I ask. Thank you.
Play from 5:08:26Robin R. Christiansen
Well, that's certainly why I reached out to you, and I have some connections that we might be able to get the the the appropriate paperwork that that you need. So, I would ask you again to reach out to me so that we can try to give you a hand.
Play from 5:09:44Eve Derman
And the other thing is, and I will say this, I lost your number because of one of our windy nights, it flew out of my pocket, and I cannot find it.
Play from 5:10:24Andre M. Boggerty
302-465-6975. And that's for whoever is listening, they need it, can contact me.
Play from 5:10:37Andre M. Boggerty
The Veterans Multi-Service Center, which is, right over here, you know um that, yes, the Treadway Tower, just like, you have the library here, and then the next building right here that goes to, right there, VMC. They will they will also help you find your um your form because they can search your name and and they can help you out, okay?
Play from 5:10:41Andre M. Boggerty
And they do and they can also help you with a job and housing. Because I deal with them all the time. I'm in housing, as well, so that's a that's a that's a uh source you should utilize and it's right here, okay?
Play from 5:11:01Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
And we we also have others as well, and that's why I asked that you both uh stick around because we do have other resource-
Play from 5:11:10Roy Sudler, Jr.
including uh their organizations that we've put a fair amount of money into as well. So, so thank you.
Play from 5:11:17Public Commenter
And I will say this to panhandling. We don't panhandle ourselves, me, my fiance, and a friend of ours. People in Lewes have given us money, not we've asked for it. Out of random. I know some people even in this room don't ask for just money. People are kind enough and have hearts like what we do and what our families do, or even generations before us did. What I think is give back to the community, not what the community can do for you.
Play from 5:11:26City Staff
I checked it a few minutes ago. Not much. Um a few people said they changed their mind and there's still a reporter on there and a couple other people, but I've sent direct messages and no response.
Play from 5:12:00Ronald Eates
Hi, I'm Ronald Eates from Dover, Delaware. Um I've been on the streets now for shoot, 2 years. Um me and my future wife, well, we've been, well we panhandle. That's the only way I can survive. I'm on disability, but I haven't had a disability check since last January. Yeah, due to my ex. Thank God for her, right? She, I was working at Hershey's. She didn't send my check stubs into Social Security. That put me $30,000 in the hole. I didn't get a partial check. I didn't get shit.
Play from 5:13:04Ronald Eates
I didn't get no checks at all, not even partial. So, I'm out here, I got to panhandle. Otherwise, I might as well just crawl in a hole and die. But by the grace of God, my dad let me borrow his truck. So, I'm using that. But we got a room from uh Williams Building gave us a voucher. Well, by the grace of God, I've been able to keep us there. I'm paying 70 bucks a night, or a day. I can't do it or rely on the government or y'all to help me out with the rent, gas, or food, or whatever. So, I got to go out there and bust my butt. Reason why I'm on disability's cuz that's my bike.
Play from 5:13:54Public Commenter
All right, where's it at? That's the car I hit. Going 65 mph. Not wearing a helmet. Doctor said if I was wearing a helmet, the way I took the impact, I wouldn't be here. So, I got more wires in my face than what you got in your car. I got two tiny titanium rods in my back. I got one in my left femur. I got more screws in my ankle than what you got in your in your desk. The two small toe bones in my left foot are out of out of a cadaver. I got screws in my right foot. I got across both my wrists, wasn't in the accident. I got carpal tunnel. I got arthritis out the out the gazoo. For me to go panhandle, I got to take four Ibuprofens, 800 mg, just to walk and do what I got to do. People say, you know, it's against it's a crime to help those panhandling. Why? I don't get it. Now,
Play from 5:14:36Public Commenter
is people doing this at night time. That's one thing I don't agree with.
Play from 5:15:57Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Agreed. Uh it's it's sensible. Uh can we uh make the same offer to you as well, sir, uh talk with us afterwards? Okay. Next on the list.
Play from 5:16:01Cheyenne Miller
Hmm. I've been to a lot of city council meetings, but never at 12:00 at night. Cheyenne Miller. Um I'm from Wilmington. Uh I'm a co-coordinator with the Homeless Campaign, and um come in opposition to this ordinance. Whew. Um I do think it's important to recognize that section D in the ordinance does point out that individuals who stop or slow their car to respond for the purpose of responding to someone are going to get fined for that. And I think it's really important that we're clear on that, that section D does fine people who stop their car. And it's important that we're being honest about the fact that the bill does do that. The other thing I think that we should be clear about is the fact that the Dover Police Chief I guess just said that like if you get a written warning, they don't keep track of those written warnings, so we wouldn't actually know whether or not someone had received a written warning. I'm a little concerned about that. Um if we really are caring about whether or not someone is a repeat offender and we have written warnings in there, how are we supposed to know whether or not we're keeping track of those? Just a general question about that. Um you will get sued when this bill passes if if this bill passes, just an FYI.
Play from 5:16:27Public Commenter
Um, I don't think it's worth passing. And then the I think the last thing I'd like to say is I'm really concerned about the fact that we continue to hear council members request residents to do the job of council. It is council's job to create the conditions, the economic conditions so that people can successfully get housing, work, provide for their families. It is the job. That is how government works. Government's job is to create economic conditions for the success of its people. And to be saying that the economic conditions must come from that peop- those people, and that they must provide the charity in order for homeless people to be able to survive is wild. It is wild. And while I'm not saying that we don't need charity, I'm not saying that people shouldn't do charity, it is kind of crazy that I'm hearing people say, "Well, I need you guys to be the ones to go out there. All the people coming out here, you guys need to be the ones to go out there and tell people to get off the medians." That is why we pay police. We just had a whole 2-hour discussion about paying cops! That is exactly why we pay police. So it is it is pretty I'm I'm begging for City Council to consider actual things that you guys can do, policies that you can make to solve this issue. You've all been handed a folder that has a document in it that shares a list of recommendations. I think these recommendations are super helpful. You can use vacant properties that are owned by the city to provide permanent supportive housing and transitional housing and shelter for people. You can prevent homelessness by passing a rent stabilization law on the city level. You can establish a city-run homeless services office to coordinate the services and the programs and the outreach teams that are needed to get people off the medians and hopefully into shelters. You can prioritize people experiencing housing homelessness for vouchers from the Dover from the Dover, uh, Housing Authority.
Play from 5:17:50Public Commenter
And you can also establish a public restroom and showers and maintain 24 access and ongoing maintenance, and provide daily trash cleanup. These are the things that you can do to make sure you're helping people. But yeah, my time is up, but I've been here since like forever, so you're going to give me my little 15 minutes, please. Thank you.
Play from 5:19:25Fred A. Neil
Thank you. Uh, unfortunately, you're wrong about the law. I have been working very continually since 2004 to get the law changed. The city charter does not permit us to control rents, plus a lot of things about housing. I've had articles and op-ed pieces in the newspaper. I fought with the state legislature, because that's where it has to come. We can't do that. I have continued to fight it, and there's people in this room know that I have fought this the problem. It's not the city, it is the state. It's the state legislature. I hope that you will listen, that you will get to them, and get your message out to them. We can't do that about housing. I yield.
Play from 5:20:03Brandon Fletcher
Good evening, City Council. Um, my name is Brandon Fletcher from the HOMES Campaign. Um, I just want to say first, finally,
Play from 5:21:02Public Commenter
Fining, moving, and jailing people because there's not enough emergency beds and/or affordable housing is not effective. And so what this ordinance does, you're going to charge people with a fine who have no way to eat or no place to stay, so now on top of their problems of being unhoused and unfed, they're going to be in arrears with the City of Dover. And those who try to help them will be fined as well. So instead of coming up with an idea as to how Dover can help people by opening up more shelters and food banks, you're going to fine them?
Play from 5:21:07Public Commenter
So you, as taxpayers of Dover, are going to have to pay for the time, the effort, um and eventually the tax burden of this stupid idea from Councilman Anderson. So this idea is not only going to cost you, it's going to cost the City of Dover enforcement, City of Dover police, the City of Dover taxpayers, and the City of Dover's citizenry, um, and every ounce of patience and understanding that the residents have had to sit here and demand that you do something about this issue.
Play from 5:21:48Public Commenter
Fining people does not make our streets safer. This ordinance is not going to make our streets safer, it's not going to make our streets cleaner, it does not get people housed.
Play from 5:22:19Public Commenter
Delawareans need more available and appropriate shelter. Um as it was outlined by the the Metropolitan Planning Organization's uh lady today, um she she could not come up with the statistic with a number um to highlight um the the safety aspect of this, and so I encourage the sponsor um to pull this bill and to put forth something that's actually rooted in fact and not fear, um in in in alliance with the Kent County Comprehensive Safety Action Plan. Um furthermore, passing this ordinance um is only going to expose the City of Dover to litigation. The First Amendment protects public uh protects peaceful requests for charity in public spaces. Um solicitation is a recognized form of speech protected by the First Amendment. And so if a person is engaging in behaviors that are a legitimate public safety risk, it's already been outlined that there are um provisions in the city code and our state law that make that behavior illegal. So this ordinance is trying to target panhandlers, um even though panhandling is a constitutionally protected clause, and the case law in this area has only grown stronger with age. Um and so I urge um I urge this council today, I request a motion to table this ordinance. Um please reject Ordinance 21. Um it's unconstitutional, it's cruel, and it's bad policy. Please do not pass it. Thank you.
Play from 5:22:59Public Commenter
Oh, lastly, um, the petition that was started by Councilman Anderson has 230-something signatures, right? 233, and the petition that we collected has 291. And we highlighted the ones that are in Dover that are Dover residents in your packets, but as the night has been going on, more people have been signing that live in your districts. And so we hope that you listen to the people who showed up today, um, and
Play from 5:24:02Public Commenter
And this will be an issue electorally as well for your elections in 2026.
Play from 5:24:24Roy Sudler, Jr.
Considering 90% of the people support this, it wouldn't be a bad thing. Now let's, now let's go for the next person on the agenda.
Play from 5:24:29Stefan Pierce
Good morning at this point. Stefan Pierce, 437 South Governors Avenue, Place again. Um, I'm going to come in front of you guys and be 100%. Privately, I told Mr. Anderson that I thought this ordinance was a good idea, but that's before I seen how it could affect people that have to make their means, you know, being there. And I know what it's like being homeless. I'm not sure if Mr. Gerald Rocha still on here, but when him and Ms. McBride came through the Peoples Church just a few months ago, I was homeless. And I know what it's like to be like that, and I also know what it's like to have to bust your ass to go do your thing, you know, to, or excuse me, bust your butt to be able to be successful in what you want to do. Not to mention, I think we're all Republicans, most of you guys are Republicans. Don't we believe in the core value of actually--
Play from 5:24:44Andre M. Boggerty
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa! Fall back! No disrespect to Republicans, but, no, seriously, though.
Play from 5:25:47Stefan Pierce
Well, don't, don't you guys believe in the core value of being able to provide for yourself and your family and yours? What is the real issue with them trying to do that the only way that they have available to them? But, yeah, I'll leave that there. I still do believe that we could work this out a lot better, but not right yet. Please do vote no.
Play from 5:25:52Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. I, um, yeah, thank you. Next uh, next on the agenda, please. Next person. We're getting comments.
Play from 5:26:14Roy Sudler, Jr.
All right, I did. It's always an option, but that's not, that's for members of committee. Right now, we're getting public comments. Next comment, please.
Play from 5:26:51Tyler Mock
Tyler Mock, Dover, Delaware. You still awake? You good? I want to make sure you're not on drugs. I saw you with a mobility aid. I don't want you to fall down, you might be on drugs. You know anybody here that's got diabetes? You ever see what happens when you have somebody with a diabetes fit? They look like they're drunk. So you stop judging people by what you see, and you start realizing that they're a person first.
Play from 5:27:09Tyler Mock
Oh, of course. Maybe we should do so on Facebook where you're brave enough to not waste our time for 5 hours.
Play from 5:27:25Eric Czerwinski
Okay, uh, you know, we've obviously highly politicized this com- this issue, and this is strictly about safety. You know, we talk about compassion for people, and compassion for lives, well, this is a compassion for life. All right? We're talking about lives on a road that people are going up to 60, 70 mph on a beveled surface that's no more than four-foot, four feet wide. I've seen people tumble off of that surface. All right?
Play from 5:27:45Eric Czerwinski
So, if we're going to talk about compassion, let's talk about the compassion for those who are on those medians who are whose lives are literally at risk. And then let's look at the compassion for the drivers who have to avoid them. People that aren't necessarily from Dover, they're driving through Dover, they have to avoid people on the medians. All right?
Play from 5:28:13Eric Czerwinski
So, let's get over this compassion thing. Compassion is safety. Safety number one. We should never politicize that. We should never have to argue with that. There's ordinances for jaywalking, there's ordinances for walking in the street. All right? And so that you know, we have laws against that. And I don't understand why this council has the, you know, the problem with enforcing standards of any type.
Play from 5:28:32Eric Czerwinski
We back off, whether it's storefront vacancy ordinances or other ordinances, we tend to just back off and say, "Well, we can't enforce anything." Well, that's why Dover is the way it is today. You know, I've been here since 2001 and there's been a distinct, distinct change here since I've been here. And it's council meetings like this where we just back off, we put the big soft gloves on and we're like, "Oh, we're not going to enforce anything." But this is about safety.
Play from 5:29:37Eric Czerwinski
And it's funny, I'm sorry, but that sign idea is is not a good idea. And the reason I say that is if you go down 13 and you turn onto Loockerman, you'll see two stubs where there used to be signs there on the median. Those signs lasted all about one week before they got ran over by a car. Okay, let's put that in perspective, and that's honest-to-goodness 100% fact. You know what, they put a sign back up there, and it got knocked down a week later. All right? So I'm saying that those medians are unsafe, and we need to depoliticize this and look at it logically and know that people that are on those medians, their lives are at risk. Pure and simple. All right?
Play from 5:30:03Eric Czerwinski
This isn't about persecuting anybody. This isn't about, you know, denigrating anybody and that, you know, that sort of thing. We have to look at safety. That's why we have laws. That's why we have standards. That's why we have ordinances. All right? And so, this is a law that needs to be passed. Okay? Now the now the the, you know, when we're talking about fines, it's not about the fine. It's about the ability for a law enforcement officer to remove somebody from the median. That's really what we're looking at. And I'm sorry, but signs, like I said, I got people that blow through my street all the time going down Delaware. They go right through the stop sign. They're not going to abide- they're not going to go by the sign. They're just going to ignore it because they have business they want to take care of. So I ask you that you use common sense in this case and get people off the medians on medians that are beveled, that were never designed for anybody to be standing on. They're like-
Play from 5:30:38Public Commenter
to four feet wide, and it's a little curb that's separating them from a car that's going 55, 60 miles an hour. All right, so I thank you for your time. Thank you.
Play from 5:30:57Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you very much. Yeah, a lot of people that were online, they had the same point of view. But that's that, but that's what it is. So, is there anyone else?
Play from 5:31:03Roy Sudler, Jr.
I think may have left. All right. Yeah, anyone else? Anyone else? Okay, yeah, please come forward. Please state your name for the record.
Play from 5:31:21Jeannie Anderson
My concern is is I was at the light in front of ALDI's. I'm a woman, alone, in the dark, and a man came out when the light the light had turned red, and he banged on the door the car next that was in the first lane next to me, and then he came into the second lane. And I'm there, I'm a woman by myself, all alone, in the middle of the night. I can't move because there's a car to the left of me, to the right of me. I've been a victim of crime,
Play from 5:31:35Jeannie Anderson
so, you know, it's kind of freaking me out. And this guy's banging on my window, trying to get me to roll it down. There There are a lot of people like me that did not come here tonight. A lot of women that have literally spoke out on this. It's not just the voices that we have here. I don't know why people left whatever it was online, but we have literally got hundreds of people that are on here because I've been personally affected by this. You know, it's like it's like people that have been affected, it's like our rights, we don't count? I I think I I think I should count, too. I've been a victim of crime, and I could not move. I couldn't move to the left, I couldn't move to the right, and I'm not allowed to have a voice because somebody This is ridiculous.
Play from 5:32:20Roy Sudler, Jr.
Thank you. It's I think it's uh it's too bad the lady who was in an accident had to leave, um wanted to tell her experience, but she'll have to she'll have to do that with uh with when we come back up. There's um But is there we are finished with the list, we are finished with the people on here, so we declare public comment closed.
Play from 5:32:50Roy Sudler, Jr.
I want to thank members of the City Council for and the Committee, the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee for
Play from 5:33:42Roy Sudler, Jr.
Okay, I can talk, though. I have a right to speak. I let everybody else speak now. Now it's my turn.
Play from 5:33:51Roy Sudler, Jr.
I want to thank members of the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee for their time and attention tonight. I want to thank you for uh for taking a look at an important issue. And when you do, you need to look at it honestly, and the honest truth is
Play from 5:33:56Roy Sudler, Jr.
that this is about the safety of people. It's about the safety of people in medians and elsewhere like if like that. It's about the safety of people driving. The reason why we don't even allow political signs in medians is because they're too much of a distraction. So how in the world can somebody standing there with a sign not be a distraction when they're moving and sometimes entering the roadway? It's as our Chief said, you have to pass a law that has some enforcement into it. We seem to be allergic to the idea of accountability. Now you have 99.9% of the city that somebody can do the same activities. However, what you can't do is recklessly endanger yourself and other people. So a woman who was talking about how her experience trying to avoid somebody got into an accident and was out of work 2 years, what happened to her rights? That our attorney has come up, has drafted something that is very sensible, is something that is worth defending, and is something that we need to enact.
Play from 5:34:13Roy Sudler, Jr.
There's a motion on the floor. Madam Clerk, could you please read the motion?
Play from 5:35:52City Clerk
The motion was to start a pilot program that would provide no stopping, standing signs on the medians with no penalty with strictly enforced signs added.
Play from 5:35:57Roy Sudler, Jr.
There is several. This looks to I guess we'll have to Madam Clerk, please call the roll.
Play from 5:36:42Tricia K. Arndt
I'm voting no, because I just don't think we have the information to go with a pilot project. I'd be in support of evaluating options, but not going straight to a pilot, so I'm a no.
Play from 5:37:01Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.
Yeah, I think I'm sympathetic to Ms. Arndt. I'm going to say no at this time, but I do think that there are some merits to it. We just have to rethink it.
Play from 5:37:12David L. Anderson
All right. Thank you. Uh, Mr. Garfinkel, you are recognized for a motion.
Play from 5:37:47Michael Garfinkel
This is going to be on the the main issue. So I do move for passage. I'm sorry, I'm not going to get the numbers right.
Play from 5:38:00Michael Garfinkel
That, exactly what he said. And it's a good bill. It's a good start. And it's all about safety. That's the key here, it's safety, and we need to pass it. Thank you.
Play from 5:38:14David L. Anderson
Thank you. Is there a second? Mr. Shevock seconded it. All right. All those in favor?
Play from 5:38:29David L. Anderson
Mm, too close. Roll call. I don't need roll calls on the unanimous ones, but when they're split, we need a roll call.
Play from 5:39:26