Transcript: Council Committee of the Whole Meeting

Fred A. Neil

Normally we would have a one-minute warning, but this is the warning and it's immediate.

Fred A. Neil

I now call the to order the Council Committee of the Whole meeting of Thursday, February 26th, 2026. I would like to remind the public that the public comments are welcome on any item and will be permitted at the appropriate time. You have the to have before you this evening's agenda, and I'll entertain a motion for its adoption.

Andre M. Boggerty

Boggerty moves for the adoption of the agenda.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury second.

Fred A. Neil

And seconded. Any discussion? No discussion. All in favor?

Andre M. Boggerty

Aye.

Fred A. Neil

Any opposed? None opposed. The motion is approved unanimously. First on the agenda, we have Council Reports.

Fred A. Neil

No, we do not have Council Reports this time. [laughter] Presentations: Future Trends in Zoning and Economic Development from uh Mrs. Parkowski, Executive Director Linda Parkowski, Kent Economic Partnership. And welcome.

Linda Parkowski

A clicker?

Staff Member

Yeah, it doesn't work. Well, just 'cause it's in Adobe.

Linda Parkowski

Is there a clicker?

Staff Member

Just let me know when you're ready to move on.

Linda Parkowski

All right. No problem. Thank you.

Linda Parkowski

Uh, thank you, everyone, for allowing me to be here today. I appreciate the offer from um Councilperson Anderson. He, I think, saw me at the um Chamber Economic Development uh forecast and said, "Can you give a condensed version?" So I'm going to talk really fast because he told me I had to condense it. And um, if you can go to the next slide, please.

Linda Parkowski

So first we're going to just go to give you a glimpse of um the demographics that that's going on right now in Kent County. You know, our population has grown. Median income has risen a little bit. But the concerning factor is the age group. Anybody 45+, that makes up 42.4% of Kent County's population. Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

Uh, in the next 10 years, our population is expected to grow by 24,000. So and of that 24,000, 62% is going to be over the 65+ demographic. Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

So are we positioned for the next wave of economic growth? And that workforce age group concerns me and should concern everyone. Are we attracting the age group that we need? Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

So one of the things that we're looking at and one of the things that, you know, even your town manager will tell you is that the inquiries that we're getting at this time for industrial uh uses, um there is large utility demands. And we today in Delaware do not have the capacity to even submit bids for some of these types of industries, for instance, pharma, food processing. We do not have the electric ca- Not even thinking about a data center, but we don't have the capacity right now in order to bid on some of those things in Kent County.

Linda Parkowski

Um, there are a couple solutions. We could create, as a state, a utility readiness revolving loan fund, something similar to the Site Readiness Fund that, you know, would up-front the money to a utility to you know, get the capacity where we need it. And then as the users come on, that loan fund gets paid back. That's one idea that's used across the country. But that's an issue that we really need to be concerned about. People always say, "Well, why don't you solicit this? Why don't you solicit that?" Lots of times it comes down to utilities. Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

So also do we have the land needed to support future growth and job creation? Dover has done an amazing job of selling out the Garrison Oak Industrial Park. And the answer to this is no, we don't have the land that we need for future growth. If we're going to look at this at 10 or 15 or 20 years from now, the answer's no. Um, next slide.

Linda Parkowski

So we have we're we're commissioned, along with uh six municipalities and Dover is participating in that, an Industrial Lands Needs Assessment. We have a national company that is inventorying all the industrial land presently in Kent and what the future future target industries are going to be. What are the new industries that we need to be looking at for 10 or 15 years? And then they're going to identify areas that we should be looking at for future land growth to put it aside now, so that in 10 or 15 years somebody isn't standing here saying, "We have nothing to sell because we didn't provide that um land identification." Next slide, please.

Linda Parkowski

So, and our are our zoning codes keeping pay- pace with modern technology and industry? The answer is no. Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

The we need to align our zoning codes with modern, safe, technology-driven industries. Back in the '60s, there was a refinery that wanted to go off the coast of Smyrna. And the municipalities at that time wrote ordinances that prohibited all kinds of things including any kind of chemical processing. And so and then all the other municipalities followed and copied that, and that has been the law for the last 40-some years. And so there are new technologies, and there have companies that have been trying to come into Delaware with new technologies, and our zoning codes have not been up to date. Uh, next slide, please.

Linda Parkowski

So, here's a big one: Do we have the housing needed to attract the workforce age population? Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

The answer's no. Uh, our deficit right now is a state Delaware's 20,000. We need to we make it easy, very easy to put in a subdivision of single-family homes. We don't make it easy to build townhomes, duplexes, apartments. We don't incentivize the middle housing that we need: the starter homes, that kind of stuff. So as a state and as bodies that actually control those kinds of things, we need to think about You know, some other places have expedited reviews, they've allowed increased density, there's by-right zoning so that these things, that we can create this middle housing that we need. TIDs have been really helpful. Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

And then here's another big one: Are we building the talent needed for tomorrow's jobs? Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

We are doing a pretty good job with this. We have a Pathways program, but what we haven't what we haven't done is taken a look at what are the jobs that are going to be needed in the next 10 or 15 years, and are we training our middle school students now for them? And that to really So in the skilled trades gap, this is national. I mean, we're we think they're a million six in a deficit, and maintenance and just repair workers. If you go on Indeed here in Kent County, you'll see that all our manufacturers are always looking for maintenance, repair, electricians, those kind of things that um we're not pumping out enough graduates, you know. Polytech does a good job. Uh, DelTech does a good job, but we need to be training some of these kids in schools. All right. Next next slide, please.

Linda Parkowski

Is our area well positioned for future industry trends? Next slide.

Linda Parkowski

So some of the trends that we've identified are healthcare, because of our aging population, healthcare is going to always stay right there where up in one or two or three; transportation; warehousing; manufacturing; energy production; and, you know, whether we like it or not, data centers are on the table, so we might as well address that. Next slide, please.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

like to see more on the growth side of road infrastructure so that we can so that we can properly um handle the traffic volume that we're looking to that's going to that's going to um manifest as we look to grow as a city, whether it's housing, whether it's industrial, that's traffic. So we have to plan for um new road systems, bypasses, and we've talked about this in different committees, the need for innovative planning when it comes to road systems. Um thank you. Thank you so much.

Linda Parkowski

I agree completely.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Boggerty, followed by Councilwoman Arndt. Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

I will obviously yield to Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you.

Tricia K. Arndt

Uh excellent presentation. I'm glad you ended with some good news. I was starting to get a little worried there.

Linda Parkowski

I know, I know, I know.

Tricia K. Arndt

It's a lot of negative.

Linda Parkowski

I don't blame you, but I just wanted to I wanted everyone to be thinking about these things, and put them on at least put them on the table.

Tricia K. Arndt

I appreciate that. Uh my question is about the industrial land needs assessment. I'm curious as to what your timeline is for completion of that, and if you're looking at redeveloping current sites that are underutilized, or are you only looking at new lands?

Linda Parkowski

No, we're looking at both. And this the the study's going on right now. And hopefully we'll have it completed by the end of summer. They were in um in-market for two full days. We went up and down the county, and they have done probably 35 or more interviews with people. Um you know, your town manager was was um was interviewed, but they have and then they did do some people from DelDOT and stuff. So um they have gotten a lot of really good information. They are going to look at new land that should be that could be set aside, but they are looking at some of the areas. We took them to a lot of sites that could be redeveloped. Yeah.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you. I yield.

Linda Parkowski

You're welcome.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um you mentioned a couple things that were on subject, but I have a couple... the term intermittent houses like townhouses, etc. Um um and you mentioned an expedited process to help our contractors and our builders and those interests. Um what does that look like, and how how do you suggest we implement that in our city if we don't... I don't think we have that expedited process yet um because it's not working. And I know we're down a planner, so...

Fred A. Neil

I think that's a staffing issue.

Andre M. Boggerty

Oh, it's a staffing. But could you could you could you...

Linda Parkowski

So so what I've mentioned to the county, and I think probably one of the simplest things, and I'm not a planner, and I'm not an engineer, so, but I deal with with this day in and day out from the other side, is to make some of these things by right, so that they don't have to go through months and months of public hearings. If we really want to incentivize some type of something, housing, whatever it is, let's make it by right.

Linda Parkowski

Now, I know Dover's system's a little bit different than the county system, but you you would want to ask one of your planners how to do that, the expedited, but some other places have done it, you know, and they have allowed In some places, you can actually start construction while the permit is being processed, you know, so there are ways and there are other things that have happened that are happening across the country. But I can get you more info, but you might want to ask staff.

Andre M. Boggerty

Good.

Linda Parkowski

Okay.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. Well, whatever info you information you have, because we we have individuals whom I know um, and again, we we are we are dealing with a staffing issue, but we have individuals who I know who are interested in and and um it's townhomes specifically, and and um and um we we don't want to lose those individuals because we're making it hard for them to invest in our city. So thank you for that.

Linda Parkowski

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, uh Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Thank you, Mr. President. Thank you for accepting the invitation and

Linda Parkowski

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

and coming here tonight. It's uh um yeah, especially uh moving uh around a couple times uh. But I had a couple questions regarding the wanted to focus on two areas. One is uh going back to housing and and zoning and the the housing gap, because we are losing people. I speak with people all the time. Um just recently uh someone making about $40,000 a year uh afraid that that soon he won't be able to afford to live here. And uh that used to be good money.

Linda Parkowski

Well, just for example...

David L. Anderson

What type of...

Linda Parkowski

No, you go ahead.

David L. Anderson

Go ahead.

Linda Parkowski

I was going to say, for example, when the box plant came in, some of the workers were making in the 60s to 70s, and they couldn't find homes. They couldn't find homes to purchase. And so that's why, you know, you say, well what's housing have to do with economic development? We need the workers, and we need to be able to to place the workers near where the work is located.

David L. Anderson

Right.

David L. Anderson

So, what type of Pardon me. Right, so what type of uh uh regulatory changes or zoning changes would help uh to move us to more as we to affordable and workforce housing, as well as other types? I mean, we we're looking at uh at some uh updates coming up, and one of the reasons why I was hoping for a for a couple presentations on this is just to inform the conversation as we uh begin to enter into uh legislation. So uh do you have any particular insights?

Linda Parkowski

The The The one thing that I mentioned to Councilman Boggerty, I really think if you want to incentivize that middle market, you need to make it by right. By-right zoning is it's just an administrative review. There's no hearings, you know, that you trust your administration, and if that's the type of housing that you want, make it simple. And you can talk to contractors, I'm hoping that they would agree that something like that would would certainly ease, and they're not spending, you know, $300,000 waiting for that approval.

David L. Anderson

Yeah. Now, now when it comes to uh uh I think the some of the best money we spend, I think the best $50,000 we spend is with KEP uh is because there there's been so much capital investment brought into the city, and new tax revenue, new uh uh electric, water, etc. Uh when it comes to the the next step in in jobs, what where do you see you you had a certain target before, has that changed or adjusted any? Uh where where are we, what are we looking for next?

Linda Parkowski

We're we're looking for, I'm hoping that we can really start working on the area by the um airport. And that whole East Dover industrial area. Um I'm hoping that that becomes the next large project for um Dover and the county. And then, you know, we have quite a few industrial parks that are in different stages throughout the county. You know, we have some in Smyrna, we have Milford, we have Harrington, and Garrison is going to be done, so we need to get another one going here in Dover as soon as we possibly can.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. I yield, Mr. President.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you. Any other questions?

Fred A. Neil

None? Linda, I have them.

Fred A. Neil

And I'm into housing. And I have been into housing. I'm into housing for low-income and fixed-income individuals. And it really isn't Kent Economic Development. This is a state legislative issue. We can't keep apartments. The city has on its books 740 apartment dwellings. 358 out in the Scarborough area, 216 on Leipsic Road called The Edge. Tonight we're looking at the old Berry Van properties which has uh 240 proposed, this doesn't isn't on the books quite yet, plus a whole slew of of townhouses that they want to build there. The problem with the rentals is that the the people who are rent

Fred A. Neil

Continually, uh what happens is that you bring in, whether it's through Fannie Mae or Freddie Mac or any other source, for seniors, IHOP programs, for low-income, in order to have those properties. The tenants pay off that loan. Then equity, private equity comes in, or it's sold someplace else, and guess what? The tenants pay off the next loan at a higher rate. And then it's sold again. And it's same thing goes on and on.

Fred A. Neil

We need rent justification, and we need it particularly for those low-income and uh fixed-income people. The low-income people are part of the workforce. And we need this desperately. And we need to get the legislature to suddenly wake up, you can't do that. Now, I've been I went after uh to find out uh Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, which is hard to get through,

Fred A. Neil

uh to find out what they're doing and what they require. And basically they require that anybody who's taking these income these loans that is designed for housing, must obey what the state says they have to do. Now, rent justification is really the answer. Rent justification is exactly what we do with utility rates. They deserve a profit, absolutely, no question about it.

Fred A. Neil

But it basically has to be based on what they're actually spending. And anytime you add another $250 or $300 uh to the the rent, all of a sudden, these people can't afford it anymore. So, there's a lot of affordable housing if you've got a lot of money in it. So what do we do to get the state legislature to suddenly wake up and put apartments and others that are meant for the low-income and the fixed-income people to be able to keep that rent down where they really can afford it? What can we do?

Linda Parkowski

That's a that's a really good question, you know, and I think, uh you know, I think there there's multiple levels to that question, and I, you know, I would start with your local legislators and see if there's anyone there that would be your champion, that would take take on that. I mean, have you spoken to, you know, the local legislators?

Fred A. Neil

Well, you know I do.

Linda Parkowski

I know.

Fred A. Neil

I've done it on a continual basis. And one of the things that's very difficult is when you have um the uh the people who are running the apartments and are dealing in the real estate industry are are putting a lot of money into those campaign coffers. And basically, you're trying to get through and say, wait a minute, you can't do this if you can't make what is supposed to be quote affordable housing and keep it down to where people who don't have that income coming in, or are basically on the low level, to be able to help them. As long as it gets sold to the next person, that next person puts that loan on top of the loan that was first one, and no one... it continues on and on. So...

Linda Parkowski

The um, you know, there there is a task force. They have the affordable housing task force in the leg-

Fred A. Neil

I've been on it.

Linda Parkowski

I bet. Yeah, I know.

Fred A. Neil

I've been on it.

Linda Parkowski

I know. Well, get them to, I mean, get them to introduce some legislation.

Fred A. Neil

Yeah. We talk about housing all the time, but this never really gets part of the conversation. So I'm introducing it here and I'll let you go because you're doing a great job. Love you, love what economic development has done. It has been a tremendous multiplier of force, and thank you very much.

Linda Parkowski

Thank Thank you. Appreciate it.

Fred A. Neil

Okay, next. Proposed audio and visual upgrades for the City Council meetings. Joe Simmons, Information Technology Director, and AJ Rowan uh from Assurance Media, please come forward.

Joe Simmons

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you folks.

Joe Simmons

Good evening to the council. Uh my name is Joe Simmons, IT Director for the City of Dover. Um we come before you um with a thing that I think was uh everybody kind of sees and requested um that we bring before uh City Council, and it's about the AV upgrade system and what's the status of it and where we at now.

Joe Simmons

Um before I have AJ come and speak from Assurance Media, who are AV experts um that came um a couple of uh weeks ago and did a complete audit of our system, um they can get into the details of their findings and some of their recommendations. Uh this is a more of a discussion um about, you know, what direction we're going and, you know, what we need to do um to bring some light into the situation.

Joe Simmons

But before I bring him up, um I've just got a statement to make um about the system. And first, I want to say City Hall council chambers space is not a space, you know. This is where the city's decisions are made, public voices are heard, and communication is relied...

Joe Simmons

rely on clear communications during critical moments.

Joe Simmons

When technology fails at these events, it doesn't just create inconvenience, it undermines confidence in the city.

Joe Simmons

However, AV infrastructure supports these spaces is showing its age.

Joe Simmons

Legacy system struggles to meet the modern-day expectations for accessibility, reliability, remote communications. And I think now is a turning point, basically.

Joe Simmons

So what I'm trying to say is that I think that the can has been kicked down the road, and at this point right now, it needs to be addressed, okay?

Joe Simmons

Our AV system was installed over many years ago. Incremental patches and quick fixes has turned into a fragile system.

Joe Simmons

Equipment becomes difficult to service, compatibility issues, growing spare parts, staff rely on workarounds instead of solutions. If you haven't noticed yet, we're missing a camera. One of our cameras doesn't work no more. That camera's 12 years old.

Joe Simmons

I think believe that was purchased back in 2014, 2012. There's no replacement for it. It's not under warranty. It's not under maintenance, and it's end of life. And we can't even replace it. We have to go to a newer model. So that's an example of it.

Joe Simmons

So I guess what I'm getting to: upgrade is not an option. AV equipment must provide clear speech, integrated assistive listening systems, captioning for remote hybrid meetings, and a user interface that staff can operate.

Joe Simmons

AV system design considers backup paths, fallover audio, voice routing, remote monitoring, proactive maintenance, equipment rated for continuous operations.

Joe Simmons

One of the biggest fears we have here is, I have, is downtime. I have my staff in Ariel and the civil staff to come over and try to do the best we can to make sure that we have the technology here for the meetings. Sometimes that's successful, sometimes it's not.

Joe Simmons

So what we have to do is, first, assess what we can preserve and integrate, replace some of the high-risk components, design a system that that's intuitive. The system we have now is, I think you agree, is not really intuitive. It's it's hard to train new staff on it. It's kind of a, again, a hodgepodge of different systems put together.

Joe Simmons

So, what now? We need to begin evaluating budgets, drafting RFPs, and defining AV modernizations that complements what other, you know, it's going to compete with other infrastructure projects.

Joe Simmons

The difference between delay and approval comes down to clarity, which we want to get tonight, of planning to upgrade our systems. In the framework of civil infrastructure, it's not obligational technology, it becomes essential for public communication.

Joe Simmons

So, again, I have A.J. from Assurance Media. They came there and did an extensive review of what we have, and we can bring him up and he can kind of go over some of the high points of and low points of what we found.

Fred A. Neil

A.J., welcome.

AJ Roman

Thank you. Good evening.

AJ Roman

Thank you, Joe.

AJ Roman

Again, A.J. Roman from Assurance Media. We're a professional integrator in the state of Delaware. I have my engineer, designer, and programmer here with me, Josh McKinley. We just wanted to go over a little bit of our findings. There's a lot of pieces of equipment that are end-of-life, and again, as Joe mentioned, the camera that failed. There's a lot of equipment behind that camera that if we replace that camera with a newer model or a different brand, all of those equipment need to be replaced as well, which could get very costly, and just doing band-aids will probably be more costly to you guys than to just to replace everything and get everything up and running to its full potential.

AJ Roman

So, much of the current hardware is end of life, no longer supported, already experiencing a lot of failures. If we continue to band-aid things, the system will not become, will become very costly to maintain, and the reliability will go down. This upgrade will provide a stable, fully supported, and cost-effective long-term solution for everyone here. So I will take questions if you guys have. Josh will be a little bit more technical if you guys want to get down to the weeds. Certainly.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Lewis followed by Councilman Dr. Sudler.

Brian E. Lewis

Good evening, gentlemen.

AJ Roman

Good evening.

Brian E. Lewis

There's no doubt that the system needs to be upgraded in this chamber. It's going to come down to cost, though, and I don't know if you'd be able to give us an estimated cost this evening on how much it would be to replace the system in this chamber. Can you give that information tonight, or?

AJ Roman

Unfortunately, I can't give an exact number. It's It's less than a million dollars, more than a dollar, unfortunately.

Brian E. Lewis

Well, less than a million dollars, I mean, that that's high.

AJ Roman

Understood. Unfortunately, I can't. But we have done a full evaluation of the system. There's a lot of products that are, again, outdated and and on the edge of failing. There are some products here that are reusable. For instance, these microphones are perfectly functional. The equipment that's behind the microphones for the audio system, we do need to update some pieces of those, but they're not not all of it. So we do need to do a full evaluation on which product is ready to fail, we think that's going to fail, or ones that has to be replaced just because if they fail, they're going to cause more problems. And once we have that, we can put a good, solid number together for you.

Brian E. Lewis

Understood. So to be cost-effective, you can still utilize some of the equipment that currently is in place in this chamber. What are the warranties that come with the new system or new equipment that you're going to be integrating into this chamber if it's approved?

AJ Roman

Sure. At minimum, it's 1 year. Some of the products are 2 years. Some of the products are 3 years. And we also have what we call a maintenance agreement that we can set up, so you guys can see what that provides. What that will provide, depending on the level of agreement, could be a full replacement of hardware that fails and the service behind it. So, that way that annual maintenance agreement will cover any repair, replacement of hardware for that year.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. So, depending, I guess, on what plan we get as far as the warranty, it comes in intervals, it could be a 1 year, 2 year, 3 year, am I correct?

AJ Roman

That's correct.

Brian E. Lewis

Okay. Then my next question: if we, for instance, authorize a maintenance plan for 2 or 3 years, would our IT department, and I guess this question would come to you, Joe, be able to maintain the equipment after the contract ran out?

Joe Simmons

I would say that it all depends on the type of the equipment. Obviously, our IT department can maintain the computers over here, some of the things. But when you get into the encoders, the bridge, the feed that sends out to our Comcast, that's more on the lines of more AV experts. And I would suggest getting a maintenance contract from a AV company to come in and to maintain that.

Joe Simmons

I would like to follow up on the question you had about cost. Obviously, we can't pinpoint the cost now because there's other things that if if so Council so sets forth, there's other options we can do. I mean, we heard about how we can stream to social media platforms, whether it's YouTube, upgrade our remote meeting, far as when you a meeting, and also upgrade some of our video retention and tools that if you want to go back and look at a meeting from like, say, 6 months or a year ago, you can easily index that and bring it up.

Joe Simmons

So it's just not just there's a lot of technology behind these cameras and monitors that we can choose if if if Council so choose to upgrade as well. So we can kind of like also take not only just replace stuff that we're doing, but also enhance and expand our our city communications. And I think that's, you know, that that's a big thing that we need to look at too.

Brian E. Lewis

Understood. And that's all the questions I have at this time.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Sudler followed by Councilman Rocha.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I'll yield to Councilman Rocha if I can go after Councilman Rocha, cuz he seems to have a bit more in-depth knowledge on AV.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I appreciate that. Technology.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Technology.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah. So basically, you guys have taken a look at at the system thus far, correct?

AJ Roman

Yes. Yes, we have.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. So one of the things that I would hope, and I'm pretty sure is going to be upgraded like last night, for instance, right? If somebody is speaking through the Webex, our our staff has to hold the mic to a owl and try to get that audio through here. But you you you are looking at simplifying that part of the the system, correct?

AJ Roman

That is part of That is absolutely one big part of the plan to to repair that issue, for sure. Yeah.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

The other thing, I know that Mr. Simmons mentioned, you know, using our social media platforms. In your opinion, is there necessarily a a a need to broadcast through Comcast or Xfinity anymore?

AJ Roman

That's a good question for you, sir.

Joe Simmons

Well, you know, that's something that Council have to decide on what platforms they want to utilize. Obviously, there's the agreement with Comcast. I believe the KSAS is worked that agreement as far as there's a public dollars associated with that, the Comcast part. But obviously, the more video streams you stream out, whether it's, like you're saying, whether it's YouTube or, you know, Instagram, whatever, I think the better. And to have those capabilities. Like you said, we maybe don't have to do it, but to have the capability to do social media streaming, I think it's very, very huge, important going into the future.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, go ahead.

Ariel

The TelVue system that we currently have, they run our encoder and decoder and the broadcasting itself. TelVue, actually in a conversation with me going over one of their system improvements, they have started to incorporate ADA compliance with subtitling, and then they also have the capability of taking our nightly recording and pushing it to a YouTube channel for us. It's just a matter of having it implemented at some point.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. So does this Is Is there any way of getting around buying a a new bridge to do it, or do we have to still have the broadcast capability?

Ariel

Well, actually, our encoder and decoder have failed. That is one of our main issues with pushing out our videos right now and why they're not live live broadcasting. Kay and I and Andrea have been in contact with the TelVue Solutions, and we're It's actually covered at no charge to us. So that is our next step is when these guys come in, that would be our next upgrade. And they do provide us technical support over the phone. So we often troubleshoot with them for that portion of it.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. So that So we has to We has to still broadcast on television, is what you're saying?

Ariel

It's a benefit to us. Like Joe said, we do collect funds from it. So.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. Okay. That I I'm satisfied with that. Yeah, I yield at this time. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Council President, for recognizing me. I'm thinking about two things. One, we're definitely outgrowing this chamber, so would the equipment be able to be transferred somewhere else? Would it be complex, or or talk to that matter?

AJ Roman

Yes. The equipment will a lot of it will definitely be able to migrated into the new location. Now, there are some pieces that are part of the infrastructure here that has to stay just because they're, one, we don't want to replace the speakers right away. Those speakers will probably just stay behind because at that point they will they will be outdated if not now. They still sound fine. A lot of the equipment that'll be in that AV rack that's sitting behind the wall there, those will be able to migrate. Again, if if it's 5 years from now, we may think about potentially upgrading a couple pieces just because it's kind of technology lifespan is about 5 to 6 years. A lot of the products that we will be putting in, like the control processors and the touch panels, they have

Joe

um probably more closer to like eight or nine years of lifespan. Um so yeah we will be able to migrate those over.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

My main concern with keeping the equipment that we currently have or trying to use bits and pieces to save a couple dollars is that eventually those bits and pieces are going to be outdated, too, and then we're right back to square one. So in my view, we definitely need a a a number on replacing everything. Also need uh a number of what a projection would be if we were to go with a system that is trending within the next five years, because we've seen where we've gone with a system and then by the time we got to implement it, uh it's not really compatible with with what's going on today. So I'm concerned about that. And my main concern is the number. Um so I'm sort of I'm sort of um interested to hear what are you looking for us to approve tonight? Just for you to do an assessment and we pay you for the assessment, or you looking Because without a breakdown as to what we're going to be paying for, I can't approve anything.

Joe

Uh you know the purpose of presenting tonight was, you know, to really get the ball rolling. Obviously, it has to be a RFP process. We're not at the point where um we can pinpoint the numbers down because we wanted to come before you and get your direction. Because like you said, we can take it, replace everything, obviously it's going to be a bigger number. We can try to use uh, you know, use uh, like AJ said, the things that we can use like the microphones. These Shure microphones are very, very high quality microphones, and they do a real good job. So you don't have to replace those things. And any any additional functionality we might want to look into. One thing I'm big on, I would like to see personally is that whatever system that we go to upgrade, it's easier on staff to monitor and manage these meetings, because it's hard on them to do their jobs and plus coming here and trying to mess with the system, trying to get it to work. Um it's complicated, so a system that can be easy on the staff and plus provide the city with obviously, you know, first class, you know, AV service, not only for people that come to the meeting physically, but also those remote users that watch it either on TV or can watch it on, you know, like I said, potentially social media. So that that's the key goals. So we wanted to come here tonight and, you know, one, get your direction, one, as you know, it's budget season and that time is going on, so we have time to go ahead and, you know, start talking about it and bring it to your attention. So when the numbers do come up, we can have we can have option, you know, A, B, or C as far as the budget and the number system. But we want to coming to you first and show you that, you know, how critical this is. It's a very important and also get it kind of like, you know, bumped up on the radar. Because like I said, we're very, very long in the tooth on on these these systems, they're very, very old and they can fail any day, and we have no maintenance plan, and um a lot of the equipment we have, we can't even go out and purchase it.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. With the so in in my mind set, um and like you mentioned, we have budget hearing coming up soon, right? So and and so we're dealing with some complex issues when it's coming to balancing the budget and making the tough decisions on what we may have to cut out and and what we may have to how we're going to appropriate funds, restricted or unrestricted funds. Um so I definitely me personally, I would definitely need to see the worst case scenario, a maintenance plan, and then, you know, replacing everything, and then and just replacing as needed. And then also I would recommend a a projected estimate time frame of when you think something may crash just to give us a heads up so that we may be able to plan appropriately uh to make the financial appropriation. Say, hey, they said that this thing may not last, but maybe another year and a half realistically. So if it crashes, we knew and we can say, hey, let's start pulling from this budget um appropriation over here just in case it doesn't. And then you see what I'm saying? So we're trying to be better stewards uh than what we are now uh in in this budget process. Uh so learning process for all of us, and I've been on council for a while and I'm still learning, so, you know, just trying to do our due diligence. And timing in my view is everything. Um so I appreciate the fact that you're bringing this to us before we're actually in the budget hearing and we're hearing this in the budget hearing and we're saying, well why didn't you tell us prior to? So great work. Um I just in order for me to, you know, I don't know what I'm looking at other than what I already know, things are failing. I've been on I've been in the city 22 years, committees, so I've been seeing deterioration of of different equipment, and I understand. I get it. We want the best quality so for our constituents as in the best bang for their buck. But timing is everything, gentlemen, especially when it comes to the budget. If we, you know, right now our constituents are stretched. If we go get a system of a million dollars, and then they're like, you know, and then we have over here we got the you know, raise taxes, we just have to balance things out. So I appreciate you um helping us to do that by bringing this presentation tonight, and I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Thank you. Um so yeah, I know I've been on I concur with what you're saying, Dr. Sudler, but I do I do want to see it at least in front of us during the budget hearings and see what we can do to work it in, because, you know, I've been crying about this for like the last six almost six years. So we have to do it, and if we would have did it six years ago, we probably would have saved $100,000. So now is the time cuz things aren't getting any cheaper, so I think we just have to, you know, get get it put in front of us. Uh I would recommend uh Mr. Simmons add it to his budget or put it on our budget or whatever budget it goes under, and then if we delete, remove, delete, we just have it in front of us to to make that decision. Uh and with that, I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman uh Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, Council President, for recognizing me. Um do you all have a leasing opportunity where leasing the equipment will allow us to stay current, and the kind of ball is in your court to upkeep? And

Joe

Yes, absolutely. We do have a leasing uh option. Um so when I send you emails, at the very bottom, I have a link there for it um to to take a look and forward if you need to, and I can send information on that as well for you.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay. So I will ask while while doing that if you can do um um if you're doing that, that you can send pros and cons about leasing verse outright purchasing. And I know you said earlier there'd be an RFP to go out to some degree, but um but you had to get someone to make an initial assessment. So I yield. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Any other questions? Gentlemen, uh just a comment. I'm from the area era of cat's whisker radios, $0.05 in a in a in a mill a a telephone box to call home, to the point where I can now do this. Honey, I'm at work. How's the picture? A little fuzzy. Well, this changes very rapidly. Uh things that you never thought would happen have happened. It has become essential for us because the dissemination of the information or what we have have gone from four uh uh networks to podcast that anybody can do. And in order to get this out and in order to to do exactly what you have presented to us, Joe, is extremely important because that's the way we we have to communicate. A lot of our people just don't even hear us, don't understand. They can go online and see when their their trash is going to be picked up during the snow, couldn't miss it, but they don't do it. So anything that we can to get the word out to help us to do this, we it's something that it becomes essential for us to be a first class uh capital city. And so we look forward to having what you have, but and presenting it, so we don't have to do anything tonight. We look forward to see what comes up with the budget and what you're recommending. And thank you very much for coming.

Joe

Thank you for having us.

Fred A. Neil

Now, I recognize Chairman Andre Boggerty to conduct the business of the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee. The floor is yours, sir.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Um I call for the adoption of the agenda.

David L. Anderson

Move for the adoption of the Safety Advisory and Transportation Committee agenda.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury seconds.

Andre M. Boggerty

It's been properly moved and seconded. Are you ready for the question? All those in favor signify by saying aye. [Aye.] By consent, the motion carries.

Andre M. Boggerty

One item um um we have one one item on the agenda. It's Request for Waiver, Appendix A- Subdivisions, Article 6, Subdivision General Requirements and Design Standards, Section E, Lots, Item 5, Site Development Master Plan for DuPont Plaza Master Plan. Waiver to allow creation of lots without public street frontage with the associated subdivision plan to subdivide the the proposed shopping center in multiple lots. I call for our our principal planner, Dawn Melson-Williams, and the owner is here as well if they will be joining you.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh Dawn Melson-Williams, principal planner with the City's Planning Office. Um so this is a um subdivision waiver. Uh as part of the Dover Code of Ordinances, Appendix A are the subdivision regulations um for the city. Uh with this property uh DuPont Plaza, it's address is 747 North DuPont Highway. Um it was a site development um plan master plan uh review by the planning commission under application number uh S-26-04.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Planning Commission's um recommendation along with what is their um review report, what they were um reviewed, the specific request letter from the applicant, uh some of the Development Advisory Committee comments from regulatory agencies, and also the excerpt from the Planning Commission meeting minutes. Um with that, uh be happy to answer any questions.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. I have a couple questions. Um initially, um are there any safety concerns with this, such as entry for fire, police, etc., emergency, ambulance? Are there any safety concerns with with the with the current

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh if this is Dawn with the Planning office. Uh if you think about it, the subdivision of land is what I call the invisible line plan. Um on the physical site, you would never know where these lines are. Uh the development that includes the uh drive aisles for access, fire lanes, parking, all of that would exist on the on the physical property. Um and a person visiting that site or an emergency response to that site wouldn't necessarily know where the park where the property lines are.

Dawn Melson-Williams

So, in in my thought, there would not be any safety concerns. The entrance that goes to Leipsic Road is actually already there. Uh it was constructed as part of the adjacent property project at The Edge Apartments that is um ongoing. There are actually already linkages between these two sites that are required by both of the plans.

Andre M. Boggerty

Okay, that was all the only question I had. Any other questions? Uh Councilman Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you, Chairman Boggerty, for recognizing me. Um, Ms. Williams, is this is this location um in a strict environment overlay?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um so this property is within a source water protection overlay zone, which is the In this case, the Tier 3 excellent recharge area. Uh that has some limitations on the types of uses that can be placed there, as well as um provisions related to level of impervious surface, how much can be paved hard surface. Um they are working through compliance with um those provisions of our zoning ordinance.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh thank you. Um, are we Well, to my research and understanding, um it appears that we rarely waive uh these kinds of of requests. And would this impact our local groundwater?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh so the request that is before the committee tonight is a subdivision waiver that just would change the shape of the properties themselves. It does not affect how the properties are developed, and the provisions related to um water recharge, storm water management, all of those are other regulations that would be unaffected by this request for a subdivision waiver about what the shape of the property lines are.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay. Thank you. So, in other words, the strict environment overlay and the source water protection overlay zone has no bearing on the what we're talking about tonight or requesting tonight for the subdivision waiver, correct?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Correct. The um source water protection overlay zone does not have um requirements for minimum lot size or anything along those lines that would affect how you strike property lines.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Thank you. That's been very helpful. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. The chair recognizes Councilman uh Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Uh thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, Ms. Williams, um I thought I understood what was going on, but after your last statement, I'm kind of lost. So you're asking us to to do something with the property lines versus the frontage of the um potential building construction, or could you explain it one one more time so for my understanding?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um so we have one tract of land and they wish to divide that tract of land into three parcels, three lots.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Understood. Right.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um our code would say that each of those lots needed to have frontage, meaning property along the roadway.

Dawn Melson-Williams

In this case, one of the parcels, lots that they want to create, has no frontage on a on a public street.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Which is Gotcha.

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh which is the northernmost one with the biggest building sitting on it. Um there is a lot that has some frontage, but not the full requirement. Um and so that one is sort of there. And then the third one actually has frontage on the public road road.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Okay. And that frontage doesn't necessarily have to be on DuPont Highway; it could be Leipsic Road, right?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Uh so this property has The property we're starting with has some frontage on Leipsic Road and a larger frontage on DuPont Highway.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

And are there any examples along DuPont Highway that we've waived before?

Dawn Melson-Williams

So, pro most The most significant one is probably with the Dover Mall. Um there are uh if you want to think of it the big boxes, they sit on their own parcels of land. They have no direct frontage on uh DuPont Highway. Uh there are two parcels that are behind the mall, behind the loop road. Those do not have frontage on DuPont Highway. There was a waiver granted in that case. We tend to see this a lot in shopping centers where they are choosing to subdivide the land rather than lease to a tenant, um based on how that tenant wishes to um acquire their property.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Yeah, I think uh I don't see an issue with it um other than Dr. Sudler had brought up, but um I think it's the fact that they're anticipating selling the property shows and if the property owner opens up a business and they own the property, I think that's a benefit to the commitment to the city to keep their business here. So, I I I think that uh we should be amenable to that. I I agree with uh giving them the waiver, so that's that's my view. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, Councilman Rocha. The chair recognizes Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Thank you for recognizing me. I I agree with you, Councilman Rocha. Um I think being as flexible as possible is is a boon for redevelopment, so and I appreciate the number of eyes that have been on this application, um both from the state and then in the DAC and from the Planning Commission. So, with that, I'm um making a motion to accept the Planning Commission recommendation to approve the subdivision waiver.

David L. Anderson

Second, Anderson.

Andre M. Boggerty

It's been properly moved and seconded. Um are are there any questions? The chair recognizes Council President.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, I think a better to uh maybe a better description. Remember where where Tom Horton's, the Canadian outfit, just opened a place? There's a bank there, used to be Pizza Hut. You're right across the street from the complex for the speedway. That's Leipsic Road. This is where you're going to have, down the line, it's not a part of this of what we're talking about, two uh apartment house for 250 apartment units, and I don't know uh I don't remember how many townhouses are in another section of this lot. It used to be Berry Van Lines. If you were here, you may remember Berry Van Lines. That's there. My only concern about it, and again we need desperately need housing, is the fact that the MPO has turned down, this is a favorite subject of yours, Dr. Sudler, um a study for uh uh of other other roadway, Leipsic Road, which has all the traffic that deals with the speedway, with um Woodlands, 216 apartments already there being constructed, another 250 That was 216, 250 apartments and the townhouses are going to be there. The MPO has turned down a study, and they really have to study this because now you're going to have a tremendous influx on Leipsic to get in and get out with all the other traffic that's there. Should it be built? Yeah, we need we need the housing. We need the tax base that's coming up from there. All the things are positive, but you have to take a look at what that traffic is going to look like at this time. So, I I'm going to be voting in for for to to move this on, simply because it has to be done, but with that note on, traffic has to be studied, and they better study it now than later. I yield.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

There's been a motion on the floor, uh a discussion. Uh the chair recognizes Councilman Rocha.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

Real quick, the the access to this property, there will be access coming off of DuPont Highway, correct?

Dawn Melson-Williams

Um yes, for this property for the DuPont Plaza, um for that shopping center, uh there is a right in, right out um entrance that's been designed. You can see that kind of right in the center of the page. Uh that's on that is subject to DelDOT review and approval. Uh it is in a location that places it at the furthest point from the intersection of Leipsic Road and DuPont Highway. It's in a location that's previously been approved for an entrance. And then as noted, uh there is a second entrance point off of Leipsic Road. Um it's kind of just There it is. Um there on the left-hand side of the image, uh that is existing, and that is actually one of two entrance points that serve the um apartment complex The Edge that is proposed there. Um there is no townhouses associated with uh this project. It's a um where The Edge Apartments is is about 15 acres that previously was actually part of this overall tract of land, but was subdivided a number of years ago.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

That's a conflict of interest, he just resigned.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Council President, I mean, I can't speak on, I'm sorry, Chairman Anderson. Just, just for ethical and litigation purposes, could we have the city solicitor, if he's still here, to comment on whether or not there's a period if you've, if you just resigned and if it says that it has to be 30 days in order for you to, you know, not be in a position where you have to recuse yourself? I'd rather, I'd rather know than not know and, and be in jeopardy of a violation or, or scrutiny. So if you're amenable, if you're amenable to that, is there any way that we could check that out just so that...

David L. Anderson

I'm amenable to calling him. But by the way, we wouldn't be required even if we were to recuse because we receive no benefits. However, that is, there is no provision in the city ethics code at all as long as you have...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Are you voting, are you voting on this? But are you voting? Is this a voting matter?

David L. Anderson

It is a voting matter.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay, so I would feel, I would feel comfortable just, just for the sake of, if you're amenable to that, if not...

David L. Anderson

I'm amenable to... Mr. President, if you wouldn't mind having someone give the solicitor a call, I would be appreciative.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Maybe Council, maybe if Councilman Boggerty, being, having some HR and interpret a little bit better than, than I would feel comfortable being his HR expertise if he could call.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, if you will, please.

Andre M. Boggerty

This, this is, thank you, thank you. While this is not entirely a HR matter because it's not an employee matter, but I will say that it will be very close because you said you just resigned. And when is the 'just'? When did you resign?

David L. Anderson

That is correct. This week.

Andre M. Boggerty

So, it, so, so, so, if I, if I were to, if I were hearing this in my consulting role with my consulting company, I would, I would say the optics of resigning this week and then ask for money and then with the potential of being reappointed after this is approved could lend itself to increase public scrutiny. I think at this point, without knowing our, our laws, without knowing our rules right off hand, I think right now you have a moral... You, it's a moral decision to decide if you want to hear and hear something that you are that closely connected to, and you get to oversee because again, I think within our charter, I think when we signed that we're not supposed to give moneys to any area that we, we serve as board members, and this is to resign this week and then come and then they ask for money and you get to oversee it. That, that, that is a really, really close, that that's a really, really close time period, or lack thereof. So again, I yield to your moral compass to decide and the, and the Council President to decide if he wants to appoint somebody to hear this matter. That's my... That's my consulting position. Again, I'm not saying that that's something that by the bylaw...

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Lewis has...

Brian E. Lewis

I, I just have a comment, if I may. Most recently, we had Bayhealth here and I'm employed by Bayhealth, and I recused myself because we had a vote on the matter of expanding the hospital, and I had asked the city solicitor in the back room what should I do, and he told me that I needed to recuse myself, it would be safe to do that, and I did if you recall, and you could look at the minutes when it came to the vote.

David L. Anderson

Yeah. And, and our code basically says that if you receive money from an organization or have employment, and that, and that's very explicit. So I just want to...

Brian E. Lewis

Understood, but I just wanted to...

David L. Anderson

The difference is huge. It's the, it's something that...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Can I interject? In our ethics training...

David L. Anderson

It's, it's something that you have, not only you have no interest in, but, but have no future interest in. But you know...

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Can I interject? In our ethics commission, ethics training, it said it doesn't have to be a direct conflict of interest, it can be an appearance of impropriety. And so, I definitely think this falls in the line of an appearance of impropriety if you just resigned last week, and then now you're, you know, conducting the meeting. I'm, I'm not saying that you, you did it purposely, I'm just saying I'm looking out for the city and for our constituents, and I think that you should recuse yourself, at the very least just so that underneath the appearance of impropriety. That's just my view. It's up to you.

David L. Anderson

Thank you. Now, I will say the code is clear and bright on that, there is no issue there. Now, we're going to have the hearing, but I'm going to turn over the chairing of this particular item to someone else. Council President, would you like to chair this particular item?

Fred A. Neil

I will chair, Councilman Anderson. And we have, Mr. Hugg is going to... What? We have this... Who? Ms. Hall? Yes.

Fred A. Neil

Ms. Hall.

Donyale M. Hall

Yes, I'm here. Can you hear me?

Fred A. Neil

Yes.

Donyale M. Hall

Oh, thank you. Good evening, everyone. I see that Mr. Hugg is at the podium. I have a few areas of concern and I know that some information has come forward. Council President, I know that you, you had that. And we, we definitely want to have Pastor Grimes and Mr. Stafford come forward and, and give their presentations. I don't want them to have a, a wasted moment here. We want to be appreciative of their time. I, I do however want to address some of the complaints that have come forward, and in light of those things, pending what those things show, possibly hold off on the vote for this after we determine whether or not there's merit to those issues that have come forth. So with that in mind, I'd like to allow Mr. Hugg to move forward at the podium and guide this discussion. Thank you, I yield.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Hugg.

Dave Hugg

Thank you, and good evening. Dave Hugg, City Manager. This application originally came to you back in January along with the similar application for the Rail Haus. At that meeting, it was postponed for additional information and background. The application itself, essentially, is creating a program to deal with workforce issues. As the narrative of the application, which should be in your packet, basically describes the difficulties that certain members of our of our community have who have been incarcerated or whatever and are trying to get back into the workforce and may run into a number of obstacles: not having right ID, not having, having prepared a resume, for example, filled out a job description, what have you. At the time that this was prepared, I made a recommendation, which did not come to council at that time, that we approve the, the application, the grant for $47,363 to be used to develop and implement a workforce development program at the People's Community Center. That was the recommendation coming forward based on the, the requirements of this fund and the information that I had obtained from Dr. Hodges and others. At this particular time, I'm concerned that, and it's a little bit outside of my jurisdiction, that there are a number of outstanding complaints that are being looked at by the city involving the use of the building, some of the activities to take place, and, you know, various operational issues. They were, they were brought to the attention of, I think the attorney for People's, People's Community Center on the 17th of February, which makes it somewhat difficult for me to continue with my recommendation only because I think these, these allegations need to be addressed and resolved before we move forward with, with providing additional funding for a new program at that site. So that's my...

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Boggerty.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Thank you for recognizing me. I too have received and hear and personally I've witnessed People's Church when they do what they are doing as far as feeding and housing. Sometimes, you know, it's yeoman's work and sometimes a thankless job. Again, I personally have donated to, when things have come up short. However, my my, my challenge is, is this: People's Church has been there a long time. So if it's, if it was it supposed to be some type of programming already for the individuals that were housed there?

Dave Hugg

As I understand it, this is a new program that services many of the clients that they that they currently deal with in their other operations.

Andre M. Boggerty

I understand that. What current programs that that are there now? Was there already workforce development program? Like what programming are there besides, and again, I'm just going to be high level, besides feeding and a place to sleep and some level of, you know, counseling or what. What other programs were, were, were taking place there? I see Dr. Hodges is raising his hand, you may call him if you...

Dave Hugg

Yeah, I would, I would ask that you have Dr. Hodges answer that question if you don't mind.

Andre M. Boggerty

He can, please approach.

Dave Hugg

Okay.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Boggerty, before he comes, I have a statement that I have to make. I'm requesting that the application submitted by the People's Community Center located within the People's Church for Economic Development funds be denied at this time based on multiple complaints regarding zoning violations arising from the activities at the center and the very real possibility of litigation. I also request the City Council consider restricting certain activities occurring there. These concerns include, but are not limited to, the presence of five convicted sexual offenders who list the People's Church as their residence while programs for children operate in the same building. There's no question that the individuals struggling for, with addiction or mental illnesses need services and support. However, their behavior has not improved in this location. The services offered at the center have become a magnet for individuals whose actions are systematically destroying the quality of life and devaluing the property for residents along historic Bradford Street, the rebuilt New Street corridor, Governors Avenue, Kirkwood, State Street, and the businesses in the downtown area. Streets, backyards, porches are used as toilets. Trash, needles, public sex acts, and solicitation are rampant. As we work to rebuild downtown, approximately 23 properties, including several stately homes converted to offices, are now being sold because we've been unable to change the conditions affecting the area. On December the 2nd, 2025, a 14-page formal complaint was submitted to the clerk's office, the mayor, and code enforcement. I did not see it, and I asked members of this council, did you see this document?

David L. Anderson

No.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

No.

Fred A. Neil

The document is a clear indication, indictment of the unintended consequences that arise when we attempt to do the right thing in the wrong location. On February 4th of 2026, attorney Kevin Baird sent a letter to the city clerk, the mayor, planning code enforcement, and the fire marshal, raising the same concerns and requesting a response within 14 days. I do not recall receiving it at that time. Did you?

David L. Anderson

No.

Fred A. Neil

When I received a copy, I asked the city managers about it and was told that on February 18th, the staff met and requested that our solicitor prepare a reply. The reply has not been shared with the city council, and we met with the solicitor today. Complicating the matter is the fact that three of our elected...

Fred A. Neil

officials, who I hold in very high regard, serve on the board of that center, including member one member of this council. But they cannot control the behavior of individuals once they leave the facility. What will it cost to make the surrounding areas safe from abuses that are occurring? Are we preparing to raise taxes to pay for it? Or will we allow the destruction of these neighborhoods to continue unabated?

Fred A. Neil

We have received a copy of the February 4th letter from Kevin Baird, and I requested the clerk to send the original, to add the original December 22nd, 2025 complaint to the record, and I sent to each member of the council that record, that letter we received on February 24th.

Fred A. Neil

I agree with the individuals served by the center need food and shelter, but nothing occurring there is changing the dynamics of their lives. We cannot allow the inability to act rationally to destroy the quality of life of others. The Attorney General's office is not expected to object to Dover re-establishing the Alderman's Court. It's not a panacea, but it will offer more responsive, community-based court that can help restore accountability.

Fred A. Neil

I'm requesting the staff to provide us with the cost of re-establishing the court. Now, one additional piece of information has come to me. There has been a complaint by the Delaware State Health Department about the kitchen that is being used to serve 75 to 100 people. Nobody is turned away. They pride themselves on the fact nobody's turned away.

Fred A. Neil

That health report was given to our code inspectors, who turned it over to the family community police department. We have not seen what that report says.

Fred A. Neil

So there are constant problems with that building and the destruction, basically, of the area around there. It's our responsibility to find uses to make sure that we're not destroying the tax base for the people who need the money that we need money for to help them. And they cannot act rationally. So with that, I'm requesting that this be pulled from the agenda at this time and denied.

Brian E. Lewis

Um, second. I second it, or--

Andre M. Boggerty

I still had the floor. Thank you, Councilman, but I still had the floor. I would call that once we approve the agenda, agenda is and pull it now, I think it's just of a vote. But I I, um, there's there's there are individuals who who have Robert's Rules of Order, but once the agenda is approved, it's approved.

Andre M. Boggerty

But I do want to go back to a couple questions regardless of the directions to be considered so they can be on record. My questions are, or would have been, what programs have been offered since the duration of of People's Church? Um, it it would have appeared that when you establish a program like this, especially for the years in operation, that you that there should have already been some type of of life develop- work-life skills being developed. So it concerns me that years later we're just crossing this.

Andre M. Boggerty

Then I I I read through some of the the, uh, took a brief 1-minute view of the budget. I see that again, you, you know, I don't know who you who all who all you are collecting rent there, but I saw a line item for rent for the organization that would do the program for $1,000. So are we, you know, are we, what space do you have there that somebody would be utilizing? Is a designated space that that somebody would be utilizing $1,000, or charging $1,000? Not a lot of money, but it is money that that that ends up to be $12,000 worth of of of rents.

Andre M. Boggerty

And then also, um, I have another question. There there are several opportunities for work-life, for the for these services to be offered elsewhere. There there's there's Polytech, um, that that if you, you know, I saw there was a transportation, if you were asking for transportation to commute individuals back and forth to Polytech or some of these other programs, I couldn't argue that. But there's Polytech, um, and they came and did a great presentation here, um, sometime ago. There's DelTech, um, and I I personally have worked with DelTech. I I looking forward to attend the graduations. They have all the programming you need, and to include, uh, on skills development, work-like. They take individuals for GED prep.

Andre M. Boggerty

I've sent, believe it or not, I paid and sent for, and I only say this because people have commented on what I don't do, um, I paid and sent, um, people to go get their GEDs, individuals from my church. I, if you go to my church, you don't have a GED, you're you're going to school. I have a member there who will attest. That you don't have to make yourself known, that I encouraged them. There's the Delaware State, um, um, um, program on the corner, CURE, uh, and and and Janine runs it, and all of those There's programming everywhere that that allows and provides these services.

Andre M. Boggerty

And sometimes individuals who've already have are already who have operated in this space, sometimes partnership and collaboration, uh, is is easier, more effective, and more efficient. I see, you know, I see some of my heroes, I won't point them out, my mentors are out there, and I know what they can add to individuals' lives. I'm here because of some of them. But at the same time, I have to think that this $47,000, and we've given People's Church a lot of money. We've given People's Church a lot of money, um, to the tunes of of of a couple hundred thousand dollars. I know during COVID, and I know I know things cost, and I know things, uh, have expenses, but we funded People's Church to the nth degree.

Andre M. Boggerty

And and I just can't see, again, especially with what we have just be um what we have just became aware of, I just can't see continue to provide money, and we haven't even seen the yielded results of individuals. I I I parked over there, and people around my car doing stuff, you know. So I I yield with that. Right now, especially given in light of what we we just heard, I I would I would say I'm not going to support this, especially until we hear, um, the the conclusion of the matter that's of the matters that's before us. I yield my time.

Fred A. Neil

Councilman Lewis.

Brian E. Lewis

Well, I think you pretty much, uh, summed it up, um, Council President Neil. Uh, I was basically only going to interject the fact that, um, when this, uh, came before the committee the last time, um, there were some issues, uh, with the application. An email was sent out to all of us by a Mrs. Frances Perry, which was very alarming to the fact that there was, uh, misrepresentation misrepresentation of information on the application, um, to include veterans. And, uh, my understanding is that the Veterans Affairs already has their own workforce development program. Um, but, um, her email was very alarming. So I was just going to bring that out to the fact that, um, I was not going to, uh, support the funding based on that, and also based on the fact that, um, I felt that this was a duplication, because the Department of Labor already has a workforce development program, and I have spoken to representatives over there at the Department of Labor, and they themselves said that they didn't feel that this was needed, because they have an array of programs over there for the homeless to go over and, uh, apply themselves to. Uh, and that's all I have. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Hugg, can I ask what was the decision of the solicitor and what was supposed to happen in regards to the property in regards to zoning? Because there've been a lot of zoning exceptions to this. What was the decision that was made by staff in terms of what the solicitor said?

Representative, People's Church

economic development funds, um, has nothing to do with the shelter, so that we are we are proposing a different program. I gave a long presentation to you all some time ago about our our plans. What we learned was, through talking to our- we- So as you know, People's Church was part of a network of downtown churches for years and years who all took turns like 3 weeks at a time took turns house- housing the homeless as an emergency winter shelter. When COVID came along, the other churches said, "We can't anymore." And so we stepped up and said, "All right, we'll do it every night." And so that's when it that's when it began. So this is a long ministry of the church. And by the way, if you're worried about code, the courts, much higher than local courts, have long maintained that the right of a house of worship to engage in ministry supersedes zoning qualms on the local level. But that's another issue. That's with regard to the shelter. Let's just talk about workforce development, which is why we're here. We noticed a few years ago, as I as I said to you last time, that about a third of our guests were people in their active addictions. About a third were currently working, but couldn't afford rent. And about a third were people who were returning neighbors. They were folks who had been locked up and came out, or they were folks who were in early recovery from their addictions, and wanted to get back in the workforce. They want to regularize their lives, stabilize their lives. And so we decided we want to help that one-third. Yeah, we're still going to work to keep the other two-thirds alive. But as you pointed out, we decided we don't just want to keep people alive, because then they're going to you know, they have to go out and continue in their underground economic activity in the neighborhood that causes problems for all of us. And by the way, I'm a victim, too, because right outside my office, outside my office window is the alley where people for 40 years have gone in Dover to deal and buy drugs. And they And there's an abandoned house right behind our our church. Right outside my window, they stand out there, and I watched a guy smoke a crack pipe today, and shoot up, and and smoke. And and that apparently has happened for 40 years. It doesn't seem to make much rational sense to say that because we we feed the hungry at night means, therefore, there's more drug addiction or more sex work in Dover. So connecting those two things makes makes no rational sense, right? And let's make public policy based on reason and not emotion. If we take emotion out of the picture, and just use our logical minds, as the city, as any government should, then we find out that, in fact, it is in the best interest of homeowners to provide more opportunity so people don't have to be in the underground economy and hang out on the street. It is in the best interest of the police for us to clean up the street as much as we can. And so our work has been to deal with those people who are ready to stabilize their lives and want to get off the streets. And by the way, the other point, and Councilman Lewis asked this question last time and I did not do a good job answering: our work, our goal is not at all to duplicate services. In fact, as stated very clearly in the documents that you have before you—by the way, the document you have before you, the the problem we had last month was that in the introductory sentence, in the very first sentence, I wrote the kinds of people who walk in our doors to get help, and I wrote, "children, veterans, homeless." It never claimed that we were going to try to supersede the VA's work in workforce development, never claimed that we were going to serve veterans. It just said that veterans were one of the kind of people who walked in our door. I met with Dr. Francis the next day, who hugged me and said she loves me, and we took out that word "veteran" and she was perfectly happy. So the new version that I gave to Councilwoman Hall a month or so ago simply took out the word "veteran," and nowhere else does it show that does it even suggest that we're going to serve veterans. So as the document makes clear, our goal is not to reproduce anything, but to work through partnerships. So for instance, on Tuesday I had a conversation with Karen Speakman from NeighborGood Partners about signing a memorandum of understanding by which NeighborGood Partners would provide the financial literacy component of our program. Our goal is not to do things ourselves because we don't have the skills. Two weeks ago I met with two folks from the Department of Labor, the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, and they were excited about the idea not to do what they're doing, but to host them in our building where the people are, in their neighborhood. Not to reproduce, but to plug into those different services, the APEX Program from Department of Labor for expungements, etc. Our goal is simply to to provide a a space, and we've received from a private foundation the money to completely renovate a space that will be segregated, a space for these different groups to come in, for NeighborGood Partners, for instance, to come in and do a workshop on the banking system or how to file tax returns, or whatever. A bank of computers so that the person from the Department of Labor who comes to talk about who comes to do assessments for vocational rehabilitation can then say, "Now, let's set up an account with you on this computer and show you how to use it so you can do..." So everything is about formal forming partnerships, not reproducing. Yes, sir.

Fred A. Neil

Yes, Councilman.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Uh, thank you, um, Council President, for recognizing me. Quick question. So, in regards to, you're not produce- you're not, um, you're not providing a differential advantage in providing workforce. You're pretty much serving as, uh, a catalyst or mediator to direct people here and there. And then occasionally, you may have, um, a workshop at at your location, which, right? Is that what I'm hearing? Okay, because I I do know that NCALL has, well, not NCALL anymore, right? So, NeighborGood Partners. They have space where where they where they can, um, host workshops. Um, I know Solid Rock Baptist Church has a space where they also can host workshops. Um, so I'm I'm I'm not clear as to where this money is going if if everyone you're partnering with, which I have a I have a lot of, um, knowledge in regards to how, you know, what they provide to the to the community, because I've done extensive community work with them, um, and I've held community meetings at certain locations as well. So I'm I'm it's hard for me to understand why, um, you need that amount of money if you're just plugging and playing everyone. Um, I I don't really and especially during a time period that, um, we have to reserve We're looking at budgetary issues. And so, timing is everything. I spoke about this earlier. Timing is everything. I do support Everyone knows that. I'm in housing. You know, I you know, I support the homeless. I have people come right off the streets. I have sex offenders that reside at my place where no one else will take them. So I resonate with all walks of housing life, and just in general. And so, I'm, for the record, I I am a strong supporter of fair housing for everyone. I just don't see, um, one, us giving the money right now; two, I don't see the amount of money that's needed to plug and play everyone, or just just to have, you know, them come um frequently to your place when when other facilities have the space. Um, and I just I just And then, you know, this is separate from all of the other concerns, because, um, typically, typically if there are concerns, especially dealing with health, or code enforcement violation, or zoning violations, or health violations at a facility, then we have something called a Clean Hands Act. And until you have all those things cleaned up, there's no additional um business that the city will allow you to do until that is cleaned up. So I don't, you know, I'm I'm not here as an as someone who's trying to, um, not support the initiative. I support the initiative. However, I think that those um discrepancies need to be clarified first so that everyone can be on the same page. Because, you know, housing and homeless and homelessness and housing and and shelter, I think we all are on the same page. We want to help. But how we get there, in regards to the conditions, the the um discrepancies, we have to, as councilpersons, we have to make sure that our constituents, not, you know You are our constituent as well, but we have other constituents as well. And we have to make sure our policies and and compliance is is, you know, that you're in compliance. So I think that it would be in your best interest to sit, you know, get those things cleared up. And, you know, maybe we can see what we can do. But right now, I don't see us really, um, giving anyone any money for economic development when we're at a a budgetary crunch. You know, we're looking at possibly, you know, we have we got some tough decisions we have to make. And so giving money out right now, to me, doesn't make sense when we have, um, our constituents who who are experiencing financial hardship when paying their utility user fees. So, and then we're just going to be giving out money for economic development and work- and workforce, you know, development when there's other agencies that is currently doing that? You to me, you at this at this time period, you would have to have a really extraordinary differential advantage in penetrating that marketplace of service during a time right now where we're looking at, you know, the the, uh, budgetary complexities that we're looking at. So I just want to say that for the record.

Representative, People's Church

Thank you, and that's Thank you, and that's exactly Thank you for bringing that point, because the point is exactly what he just said: there has to be some, how did you just say, an extraordinary differential advantage. Here's And I'm going to ask Mr. uh uh Secretary Secretary Harold is fine. Mr. Stafford, to speak to this. Um, here's the advantage that we have. By the way, we are perfectly in compliance. So, if you want me to speak to the health thing, I will in a minute. Let me just say—

Fred A. Neil

Basically, you say you're compliant, we get sued, the city taxpayers have to defend compliancy, and there is a great deal of a question of whether it is or it is you are or you're not. There is a lot of law that says that is not a ministry that you're talking about. There's certain services you can have in there, but that is a different use for the property, and the law is there and will be determined by the attorneys. I have 17 articulate letters, one of them is seven pages long, detailing the problems of people who are coming there who you say are not yours. But they're drawn there because they eat there. They're drawn there because they can go to your place. And that is where we have a problem. It is a residential area that is bringing people to that area destroying homes. One of these letters is seven pages long and is very articulate, and really is detailed. So you're painting a wonderful picture that can be done elsewhere. It's simply that.

Representative, People's Church

No, sir. I'm saying that there-

Fred A. Neil

So if that's the case, the city is going to have to defend you? The city is not going to defend you. The city is going to take a look at you and say, this, what's happening in there, it doesn't fit the code. It doesn't fit the forgiveness of having you do certain things, that you can be a a a different use, but not the use that it's become, including the fact that you have sex offenders in a building that has housing. And we've had that problem in other places with other organizations doing the same thing, and the schools were farther away than they are to your building. So you're painting a marvelous picture of what has to happen. It just doesn't have to happen there. And whether the Labor Secretary is here or not, the fact is, it is damaging to the property. 17 articulate letters, not something that was a form that somebody just sent in by email. This is going to go to the Secretary. This is going to go into the record. The names are going to be redacted simply because there is a fright factor, intimidation from the people who are hanging around, and they don't want to be intimidated. And so, while you paint this marvelous picture, it hasn't been marvelous for them. And you have to consider the quality of life that you can't say, "It's wonderful, we're going to do this," because it hasn't been wonderful. It has been terrible. And basically, what they

Fred A. Neil

It's there, it's verified, and a lot of these people we haven't even been able to arrest because the Attorney General says, you can't arrest them, you can't put them in. You can't do that.

Fred A. Neil

So it's a problem that draws, because you have 75 to 100 people who you feed every night in a kitchen that may be a of the, of a great concern from the Health Department.

Fred A. Neil

And you're smiling and saying, "This is wonderful. We have to pull it together." Yes, we do.

Fred A. Neil

But it doesn't have to be at your location. And that location basically is not, was not designed for that.

Fred A. Neil

You want to have kids in there for programs? Great. You want to have some educations in there for something for Great. But what you've drawn is basically a destruction of the property

Fred A. Neil

there, historic property, newly developed property, new homes on New Street, all through that area. And they come because they know they can dine at your place. They know that there's going to be food there.

Fred A. Neil

Do they need it? Yes, but they needed it there? Why don't you do, basically, have the dinners and lunches, whatever, and send them to another place? You've got the kitchen, send them out to someplace else where they can do the eating.

Fred A. Neil

They don't have to do that. The education, they can go elsewhere. You've just heard the Councilman, Dr. Sudler, say there are other places.

Fred A. Neil

Neighborhood Good Partners has a place right down the street. Terrific place, really set up nicely. Lots of places to do that. It doesn't have to be there where it's destroying the homes and the lives of the people who are there,

Fred A. Neil

who live there. And you can't deny that it's not there, because it's there. It's here, it's here, it's here. I yield.

Pastor Hodge

Yes, sir. I, I could write seven pages too. In fact, I've written a few books. But just because it's on paper doesn't mean that it is factually correct.

Fred A. Neil

I believe they're facts verified by the people who are there.

Pastor Hodge

Please, if you would allow me to finish If you would allow me to finish answering the question and, and ask Mr. Stafford to come. The issue is that the folks in that neighborhood are not likely to walk across the highway to Blue Hen Mall to get a service.

Pastor Hodge

But if it's there, because when there's trauma, there's a, a psychological mechanism by which people feel safe only in their neighborhood. They're not going to walk across the highway to Blue Hen Mall to have an interview with somebody to do an assessment. But if there's somebody there from the Department of Labor to conduct a readiness assessment,

Pastor Hodge

then that's much more likely. And so the situation of inproving We could do this work, or we could just leave and then see what's the neighborhood is like.

Pastor Hodge

They're not going to go away because we don't have workforce development. They're still going to be there. But I want to ask for confirmation. Maybe what I've said is not correct. Is it true that having a satellite spot for the Department of Labor would access some population that would not otherwise

Pastor Hodge

go to Blue Hen Mall? Does that make sense to you, sir?

Harold Stafford

Yeah.

Harold Stafford

Good evening. My name is Harold Stafford. I'm the co-founder of a company here in Dover. Most of you are familiar with it, is the HELP Initiative. We've been in existence for about 9 years, and I serve as the board president and also the government relations director for, for the HELP Initiative.

Harold Stafford

We've provided services to many, many, many citizens of Dover. We headquartered our company in Dover when it was formed, first town that we worked in, first city in the state of Delaware. We've now been to over 20,000 residents providing the services that we provide with our company.

Harold Stafford

I uh am not here uh in the capacity of Secretary of Labor. That was a job that I had several years ago, and I was very honored and privileged to have the opportunity to serve in that capacity. But let me just speak uh to uh this whole workforce development issue.

Harold Stafford

Uh those of you who are old enough to remember, the former President Teddy Roosevelt said, "The best social welfare program is a job. The best social welfare program is a job."

Harold Stafford

When Pastor Hodge approached uh our company and asked for our assistance in developing a workforce development program, we indicated that uh we would be happy to supplement what he's trying to develop. We have funding,

Harold Stafford

and we've had this funding for several years now, to uh put uh pre-apprenticeship interns into work positions and also into uh training in the special trades.

Harold Stafford

We have agreements with all of the adult vocational schools in Delaware, and we have funding to hire these individuals, $18 an hour, put them to work on the condition that they would have to make sure that they have a particular trade that they wanted to specialize in.

Harold Stafford

Several of the people that are being serviced by the center that uh Pastor Hodge operates, we've hired many people with those kinds of backgrounds.

Harold Stafford

Today we had an interview of nine individuals, two of whom uh were just released from the Department of Correction. So we're we're in that space,

Harold Stafford

trying to get people off the street so that they can begin to get the training to to be able to take care of themselves and not have our streets uh increasingly um populated by the kind of clientele that you're talking about tonight.

Harold Stafford

The Department of Labor, uh I don't, when I was there they had eight satellite locations, trying to go into the communities where people live in order to improve the possibility of having them access the services that they offer.

Harold Stafford

And Pastor Hodge was looking at this location as another satellite location, because most times when we started our work here in Dover, people wouldn't even come to our office. We had to go and close off the streets,

Harold Stafford

and I think some of you might have been part of that at the time, where we had people would come after we'd close the streets off and try to access the services that we were trying to offer.

Fred A. Neil

Could they operate from the Cure building, which is uh operated by the uh NC- Neighborhood Good Partners, which is just right down the street from there? Are you familiar with the Cure building?

Harold Stafford

I'm familiar with the building. I I don't know the-

Fred A. Neil

Very beautiful. Very nice. Lots of The Cure building is right there.

Harold Stafford

I'm aware of the building, yes.

Will Grimes

If I may-

Fred A. Neil

Oh, hi there. How are you?

Will Grimes

I'm well. How are you, sir? I'm Will Grimes, I'm Pastor of Solid Rock Baptist Church, and just to address your question, that's not the function of the CURE building. Um the actual first floor of that building is Restores Central Dover, and that's just our community development, community engagement, staff. Second floor is um Delaware State University,

Fred A. Neil

I've been there.

Will Grimes

which is their bus- exactly. So those functions are not at that location. Um if I may real quickly, I'm a preacher, so I don't want to be long, but Frederick Douglass said something that really resonates with me. He said, "I'll unite with anyone who's doing right, and with no one who's doing wrong."

Will Grimes

The right thing is really creating opportunity for the most vulnerable in our community. And being part of the board, I sit on one of the work the um working groups where I've made friends with a lot of the residents here, um where we've actually come in and we really talked to the residents, because a lot of the activity that the churches are getting blamed for

Will Grimes

was there before the um community center actually started. A lot of the people that are being serviced are not people who are coming into the center to get the services. What we've learned is that we, I think someone mentioned it, we have a work uh with res- um NeighborGood Partners, we have a entrepreneur program called Launchpad Program.

Will Grimes

That program started in 2018 with NeighborGood Partners. Del State was a part, as a partner with us, they wanted to bring it to Del State, but what we found out is that the people who are part of our launcher program, the entrepreneurs, the grassroots entrepreneurs in the community, they're not going to the college.

Will Grimes

So the success of our program is that we brought the we brought the resources to the community, and we hold that program there. The people at the Peoples Community Church, I mean uh in that area there, are not going to a college. They're not going to DOL. They're right there, and to be able to bring those resources there to service those individuals who are there.

Will Grimes

And I've often said this to Dr. Hodge is that we don't do a great job at telling our story. Um there's a lot of success stories that are happening in that building there. There are people who have come in there one way, and we have seen them develop and move on, but we don't do a great enough job at telling our story.

Will Grimes

Um I'm not really here to address all the other things, but one thing I do say is that Peoples Community Center is not part of the problem, but they're taking a great stand to be a part of the solution. Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

Okay. Um I'm ready to for uh public hearing, let people who are here to talk. Um we have a number of people who have signed up. And Madam Clerk, will you please uh-

Pastor Hodge

Um sir, I'm tempted to withdraw our application, in which case it would be unnecessary. However, um perhaps people want to know who's on the record for voting yes and voting no.

Pastor Hodge

Um if if we have a public hearing just as a taxpayer citizen of Dover, I hope that the hearing is specifically on this application and not on any of the other many complaints that people might have.

Fred A. Neil

I think we have to hear from the people who are from the area, who basically are extremely concerned, and therefore, it becomes that important to us because there's the people who, basically, their homes are being destroyed

Fred A. Neil

because the people who are coming, I'm not I I'm delighted that somebody is being able to leave, unfortunately, not enough of them leave, and they cause a lot of problems.

Fred A. Neil

And because they cause a lot of problems for the neighborhood, because they're drawn the food, there's no other reason for the food, so why should they leave for- from that? And the kitchen's got a problem, is does it not?

Fred A. Neil

But in any case, I would like to hear from the people who have come here and signed up to be able to talk at- on this. So, thank you very much, and we will uh-

Pastor Hodge

We hope that the Council considers things rationally, and, and uses facts. Some of the facts that have been mentioned simply don't don't, don't pass the test of logic. Thank you.

City Clerk

First public comment is for William G. Faust.

William G. Faust

Good evening, everyone. William Faust, Dover, Delaware. Um I've got a couple concerns. One, Department of Labor, as Councilman Lewis says, has covered this, and they have deeper pockets. What happens after this grant money's gone?

William G. Faust

That's one. Two, Dr., I mean, Dr. Sudler accurately said, we have a financial problem, we have to make hard decisions. We have a due diligence to protect our most vulnerable. Not saying that the people that are at that church aren't vulnerable, but I'm saying there was a lot of people hurting.

William G. Faust

My concern, I don't think any of this money should be spent or issued out until all these accusation or black cloud has been resolved. And I'll say, you know, law enforcement, corrections. I'm assuming there'd be single parents coming with kids and everything else.

William G. Faust

If you have sex offenders there, isn't that kind of a conflict if you're bringing people in to get jobs, or they're, and there's a sex offender up or down? There's a safety issue to the public. And again, this is public money.

William G. Faust

I think the citizens, I don't speak for one, myself, myself, so people can agree or disagree, these are public funds. The public should have an input what gets spent, and what doesn't. I'm not against helping out the poor, the people need a hand up, but we need to spend our resources or money wisely,

William G. Faust

and I think this should be put on hold, or uh voted down, until these important questions can be answered sufficiently, or until we have from this uh our City Attorney what he thinks is saying of. Uh Council President Neil said we have seven letters saying the question?

Fred A. Neil

17 letters.

William G. Faust

Oh 17. That is a concern. You have 17 individuals that are articulating a concern and issue of safety or other concerns. This council has to protect us from lawsuits, from the public or from someone that get might get hurt.

William G. Faust

So please, either postpone this vote or vote it down. Thank you for your time and consideration of this matter.

Fred A. Neil

Madam Clerk.

City Clerk

Next we have Cameron Llewellyn.

Cameron Llewellyn

Hello, Cameron Llewellyn, 117 West Reed Street, 207 North West Street, 131 Rosemary Road. I work in Dover, I own a bunch of real estate in Dover, but I don't get to vote for any of you,

Cameron Llewellyn

and I don't get a voice, except for right now. So um we own Tidemark Construction, Fire Tide Properties, My Roots, everybody knew My Roots, everybody know Lori open a cool little clothing boutique downtown? That thing's out of business, it's closed,

Cameron Llewellyn

okay? And I know you love that place because you bought shirts in there, didn't you, Dr. Sudler? Okay. So, uh we employ dozens and dozens of Delawareans, and we have a cool little building at 117 West Reed Street, and we bought that little brick building, and we moved our business in there, and it was just this cute little community.

Cameron Llewellyn

There were not drug dealers in that alley for 40 years. Not. That's incorrect. I'm also the founder of Destination Downtown Dover.

Cameron Llewellyn

You guys know what that is? Okay. What was it? Oktoberfest, History, Heritage and Hops, First Fridays, bands.

Cameron Llewellyn

Well, we had to shut that thing down. And I don't think I need to do the math with any adults in the room as to why we had to kill that thing, right? Cuz there's no businesses on Loockerman for us to bring people to, okay? Um I'm going to skip some other junk in there cuz I'm going to save you some time. But the first question is, can

Public Commenter

RG-1 zone accept a workforce development? That's, that's just the number one question. It's a yes or a no. I don't know, I'm not a planner, so.

Andre M. Boggerty

Can I try to ask that, answer that question?

Public Commenter

Don't know if he can, he's on his phone. So, he's tired of listening to me. Um,

Public Commenter

So I have a piece of paper back there that that is a pamphlet that advertises a multitude of services that this establishment offers, and I don't believe that they're licensed for any of them. We need to look into that, okay? Our business is immediately next door, and after pulling people that we thought were dead out of the bushes, people using our bushes as a bathroom, we had to rip all our landscaping out. You remember that, Dr. Hodge, when you screamed at my wife profanities because my landscaper parked in your lot? Because I have video of it.

Andre M. Boggerty

Excuse me, I'm sorry. Excuse me for a second. Um, if, if, if, if I can be recognized. I think, um, our City Manager, I think, I don't think he heard, heard us. But, um, he can answer your question, he's a planner by, by, um, Mr. Cameron, the City Manager, he can answer your question, he's a planner.

Public Commenter

Can, can you permit that use? If we were to say that they're going to do a workforce development, can it be in that zoning? Is it, is it even an approved use?

Andre M. Boggerty

The zoning, can you refer to the rezoning for the public again, the, the, the zoning you're referring to?

Public Commenter

The RG-1.

David Cameron

Uh, it's a business activity. Uh, if the zoning is, uh, allows for, um, small businesses, home occupations, that kind of thing, yes, it would be no different than, um, an insurance office or something of that nature. Um, I don't have the zoning book in front of me, so I'm not sure I want to try and guess at what the zoning specifically says, but under the assumption that that, yeah, it was a properly zoned area for that type of activity, yeah, it could it could it would be a permissible use. Is that, um,

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank, thank you.

Public Commenter

Okay. Thank you.

Public Commenter

So, um, so our business is directly across from the fire hall. And after some of the activities, we installed a very sophisticated, uh, camera system, and there's a monitor about the size of that thing. Got 33 seconds left, rock and roll. Um, we, um, we see everything that happens, okay? And for context, my wife was a human resources manager for two different addiction recovery services. So in order to do the amount of services that are on that pamphlet, they'd need four parking lots the size of the one they have for all the staff that were providing those services. We don't believe there's any services. Um, what we do see is a multitude of individuals being dropped off at this community center, and my wife talks to them. This is what she did for a living. I can't do it, cuz I see the despair in their eyes. I took two and a half months for the you guys to answer my, uh, request for zoning verification. I'm taking another minute. Um, these people walk in there and they think they're going to overcome their opioid addiction, and there's no program. And then they get released onto the streets of downtown Dover. They have no family, no friends, no support network, and they wind up living in those drug houses because they didn't get any treatment when they first got there. Hey, we're going to help you out. We're going to tell you to go over there and get some help, but there's no help. So now we're concentrating all these people right next to where my wife had her cool little shop. People aren't coming in there. We had to close it down because people that show up at that center the next day, we're finding them in the bushes behind our building and we have to call the paramedics because they got a needle hanging out of their arm and they look like they're dead. So that's what really happens, and I invite everybody in this room to come and sit in that office and watch what really happens, okay? It's This is a scam. We need to audit their finances. We need to look at their books, because when

Public Commenter

How much does a stained glass window cost, Brian? Do you know?

Brian E. Lewis

These days, probably a substantial amount of money.

Public Commenter

Yeah. We put all new stained glass windows in the church. Where did that money come from? We've got 30 parishioners in there. 30, that's a three with a zero after it. You can't put stained glass windows in a building with passing the basket around to 30 people. So let's do the math and let's figure out what the heck is going on there. And for God's sake, let me get my wife's business back going, okay?

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you, sir.

Public Commenter

I ran over. Thanks for the extra minute. Love you all.

City Clerk

Pauline Demange, are you speaking on this?

City Clerk

Uh, Andrea Freud?

Andrea Freud

Good evening. Council President Neil,

Fred A. Neil

Good evening.

Andrea Freud

Councilwoman Pillsbury, Councilwoman Hall, Councilman Boggerty, Councilman Anderson, Councilwoman Arndt, Councilman Lewis, Councilman Sudler, and, um, everyone here. Um, I'm My name is Andrea Freud. I'm a lifelong resident of South Bradford Street. I've had the pleasure of working with several of the council members and talking to several of them at times about this. I spent some time on the Mayor's Unsheltered Working Group in 2024, going to meetings, um, for more Thursday nights than I would have ever wanted. Um, my purpose in that, um, and I worked with Ms. Smack, I know she's here. Well, she was here at one There she was. And I and I was with her. And we had a lot of good things we talked about that that. It, unfortunately, it didn't go anywhere. Um, and I'm here today just to I as a re- resident of South Bradford Street, and I have a have a lot of things that I wanted to say. And there's a lot that to have to unpack after today, what what I've heard today. Um, you know, I want to say I want to agree with Council with Pastor Hodge that we are all in the same place. We're all on the same team. This is a Dover issue. It's a Dover by Dover so we could try to solve this housing problem, the homeless problem, the the drug addiction I work for the Superior Court. I'm a Superior Court Commissioner for Kent County. I've been doing it for 32 years, and you know, so I see the mental illness up front. I do involuntary commitments. I do drug court. I do mental health court. I know the problems, okay? That's one of the reasons I went to those unsheltered working, because I thought I could bring some help to them and my perspective. Um, but I'm really here, you know, today as a citizen on South Bradford Street, and I want to say that I don't know I Pastor Hodge, I believe he's been here since 2020, um, as as the pastor here. Uh, I may be wrong, but I think that's correct. Um, I've been living on South Bradford Street since I was two, okay? I moved back here in 1987 after I graduated law school, and bought bought moved into my home where I grew up, and bought it from my mom in 1992. And I can tell you there has never at one point or another been the level of addicts, prostitutes, and and things in the neighborhood. And it and it, uh, I will admit that it was there was a slow decline that was happening for years. You know, I'm I remember 10 years ago, 15 years ago, my husband and I would think nothing about walking downtown to go to the Golden Fleece Tavern to see Todd Stonesifer and his band play a show there. We'd walk down there. I would never walk down there. As a matter of fact, when I go home tonight, the only reason I'm I'll be able to park and walk there is cuz my son came with me. If I come home from a law meeting at night, 8:00 at night, I will not walk down the block. I had security cameras. There's people up and down all the time, and it has gotten progressively worse since 2023. That is when myself and some of my other neighbors here started getting to, "What's happened? Why has this gotten so bad? What has happened to our neighborhood in the past few years?" And it's that I think that coincides fairly close to when the People's Community Center started opening it. And yes, I understand Reverend Grimes saying and and our former Labor Secretary saying that they people have to come to the program, and we're putting it here because the people here My question is, the people those people weren't here before that happened. And it's gotten progressively worse. I think we need to the city needs to step up and try to solve these problems and do something about it, and try to get help to these people that need it, but not at the expense of homeowners who've been here for years. And Reverend Grimes was at that meeting in September and he saw. My neighborhood is not a wealthy neighborhood, okay? I mean, I'm living there because it's my home and I love it, and I would never move. But a lot of people in my neighborhood, it's a lower middle-income cl- class neighborhood. We're not a bunch of wealthy people that are, you know, complaining about this. They're people I've got a we've got an Oxford House across the street that I've made, my we've all made friends with several of the people there. One guy, Reggie, he's he's got a he's, uh, God love him, he's a great guy. But, you know, and he's been clean and sober for a long time, but he wants to get out of there because so many of the other young guys in that house are are overdosing or going back and because they're all this other drug trip trapment there. And it was not this bad. It has not been this bad for 40 years. And I I would swear on a stack of Bibles I have lived here and I have walked those streets and I used to walk all the time from my house up to Holy Cross to go to mass in the morning. I won't My husband won't let me do it now. Because of it. This summer got so bad,

Fred A. Neil

I believe that, uh, we have Reggie's Oxford House?

Andrea Freud

Yes.

Andrea Freud

Uh, and I would like to say I know my time is up. I want to say one last thing, and I I hesitate to say this, and I've only done this one other time before, and that's when I was took my daughter when she was 16, she got a speeding ticket ticket up on Route 1 out in Little Creek, and I had to go up with her to the JP Court to pay the ticket. And as we were sitting out in front of the hall before we went in, I overheard a young man talking to his girlfriend's mother about how they were going to plot to, uh, make the the boy had to be there with his mom. His mom he didn't want to tell his mom. So this other woman agreed to act as his mom. And as an officer of the court, I felt obligated to tell the judge what was going on. Um, today, through no fault of my own, I happened to be sitting right in front of Pastor Hodge, and I I sorry, I overheard him say to Reverend Grimes that there was a member of the committee that have been on the board who is thinking about running for mayor who had resigned from the board, and I believe he said he thought he could help them better when he was not on the board. So I bring that to your concern about the concerns with, um, with the, uh, the impropriety of perhaps voting, um. I, as an officer of the court, I know I always have to recuse myself when I when I have any conflict of interest. I don't know whether I have no idea whether Councilman Anderson said that. And I he may not have, and he may have and he and he may because I think Councilman Anderson is a good man, and I've met with him and I've met with him at the People's Church where we met, and I think he cares about this town. And so I don't know whether I mis- whether I misheard it or what. But I do think there is a appearance of impropriety, um, under these circumstances that I think, for the good of the community, um, I would well, I'm not going to recommend anything, because I'm a member of the judiciary, but that's the last thing I wanted to say. And I thank you for your time. I have I I I could go on for hours about this. And if any of you wish to talk to me, I would be happy to spend time talking to you. A lot of my neighbors don't feel comfortable coming here. Um, they just they don't they don't they don't have the they're not public speakers. They work, they have little kids, they don't want to do that. But I I There's a video from the guy at the at the Chapel Arms of a woman giving fellatio to a man in broad daylight in right behind their building. And another one of two women scouting out and taking a dump in front of the window. Now, I know they'll say that they're not that they'll say that they're not for them. It is. I I can tell you, as someone that lives there, it is a magnet. It is, and and we have to figure out a way to solve this where we can get these people the help, but not in a residential zone where it's a burden on us. We should not have to bear all this burden. So thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it, and as I said,

Andre M. Boggerty

Councilman Boggerty. Stand by. Um, as a matter of fairness, I thank you and I hear your heart. As a matter of fairness and consistency, we have enforced our three minutes. Stand by. Um, we have enforced our three minutes in other hearings, and while we allow time, there is a methodology where somebody want to take and yield their time. But, um, I want to make sure that we're firm, fair, consistent, and not just this hearing, but all hearings, um, for my public. So unless you're completely done or unless there's somebody who's willing to approach and yield time.

Andrea Freud

I I'm done. I I I I, but I do ask all of you if you have any questions,

Andre M. Boggerty

Or or

Andrea Freud

feel free to call me.

Andre M. Boggerty

Or as, uh, the one of the most senior council members, Dr. Sudler said, we can suspend rules. But understand she understand you're done. And thank you for your, thank you for your service.

Andrea Freud

My heart is pounding, so I I I Thank you, and this is a problem that I'm willing to help solve in any way I can.

Andre M. Boggerty

Thank you. Thank you.

Andre M. Boggerty

All right. President Neil, um, um, thank you for acknowledging me.

Fred A. Neil

Our next speaker?

City Clerk

Uh, I was told Mr. Shevock has his hand up.

Fred A. Neil

Mr. Shevock.

Ralph Shevock

I had had my hand up before and, uh, Councilman Neil, you specified the reasons, and I was going to say to have it tabled, but I agree with your motion.

City Clerk

Uh, Ms. Paul?

Cheryl Paul

Cheryl Paul, Dover, Delaware. I think you guys have an issue that is way bigger. The city of Dover has had this issue for a very long time. And just Saturday, we and we have been, matter of fact, Miss Baker can tell you, we've been on her road many times picking, you've seen us picking up trash on in in your area. And one of the things that we saw when we were in that area, we picked up trash from Bradford, Governors, and Reed. Not only and all of it, Pastor, um, saying Pastor, uh, Dr. Sudler,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Come on now.

Cheryl Paul

Dr. Sudler, Councilman Anderson,

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Elder pastor.

Ms. Paul

you were a part of the clean-up on New Street. I think what is happening, and we have to understand that when you go through and understand, New Street had this issue right there at Holy Trinity. Of course, we had to go and we had to enforce as community to make these people move. So you don't see this activity on New Street as you saw it uh a couple of years ago.

Ms. Paul

You know, and that took us, me myself personally, other people in the area, to go, "Look, I need you to get off the property." And and everybody doesn't have that same ability, everybody doesn't have that same force, everybody doesn't have the same credibility in the community to be able to go talk to people from different levels and different walks of life. But I do have that ability to do that, so I was able to go and deter those people away from the church because you're creating issues for the church now.

Ms. Paul

So we can get them, but then you start seeing them move. So they went from New Street, and then they went to Reed Street, and they're shifting. So when they left from Reed Street, then they're on Governors. Now what we witnessed on Saturday and we had 7 1/2 bags of garbage, contractor bags, 50-gallon bags of garbage, and what we witnessed on Saturday, and we started at 8:00 in the morning, what we witnessed was a individual, and and George is here, he can tell you, what we witnessed

Ms. Paul

was an individual smoking crack on the sidewalk. What we witnessed was individuals actually going through shooting up. And a lot of things of which we picked up were the meals that they actually get from, you know, from their lunches and things that are served. Now understand I'm torn

Ms. Paul

because at the same time, you have a facility that's here to give shelter and there is nowhere else to that that is doing this. One of the things that we did when I worked at People's Place shelter, with me working as a residential aide, during that time in the evening when I came in, we had to literally our people had to show us were they were gainfully looking for employment, were they were actually or in or or got them into the GED program, and we literally gave them that that that information, that nudge.

Ms. Paul

And then they had programs that you had to have them sign up for that would transition them. Now it wasn't just housing, they had we had listings for room for rent, things of that nature, to where we got them jobs. And I was a very big part of getting them those jobs to get them out, do you understand what I'm saying, to get them out into the workforce so they could have be able to afford to at least have a roof over their heads.

Ms. Paul

I think the issue right now the money that they're asking for, it doesn't make sense. It has to make sense right now. So with regards to the the workforce develop this because actually with this workforce development, we're going to be honest, you have to have money so you can get birth certificates, you have to have money so they can have driver's licenses. Are they providing this funding? You have to have the resources, so if the City of Dover is going to invest in something,

Ms. Paul

I think they need to invest that portion of the grant funding into actually being able to help. Now with regards to the other portion as far as the services that are being offered, I think it's time to go back to the basics with regards to the services that you're offering within the facility. And the facility has to literally go through and say, we have to take the ability to say we're going to be responsible and we're going to make sure that these people that are coming to that need the shelter

Ms. Paul

are doing the things that they need to do to make their situation better.

Andre M. Boggerty

Stand by, stand by 1 second. George, you, for the record, Council President, you yielded your, you yield your time to Ms. Paul? Thank you.

Ms. Paul

Okay. And so I think what it is we need to make sure that the resources that were that were giving out, because I mean $300,000 is a lot of money, so I and I understand, you know, people on this street and I'm I literally went down this street and I talked to the residents on Bradford and some of them are here, and it's not a it's not a lie, it's not a mystery, what they're saying is really things that are happening. You have runners that are running their drugs, you know, they're not it's not one hand, you know, you got one person going to pick up the money, the other person going to deliver the drugs, the other person going, you know, they really have and I've had myself where where you literally have people that are, you know, having sex in public

Ms. Paul

and they are and they may you can say that they're not patronizing, you know, certain establishments. But let's be realistic, we have a issue in in a as a whole. One of the things and that was what your mobile substation was supposed to be taking care of. And and because you have this issue and it has not been it hasn't been initiated, you're going to continue on having the same issue. Why? Because we are not doing anything to stop it. One of the things that you have to understand is these people that live on this street,

Ms. Paul

they have a right to be able to protect their homes, but at the same time, I understand where the pastor is giving a service. Why? Because that's what churches do. We have to figure out a happy medium, and we can't go through and punish people that are homeless, but what we can do is make sure that we give them criterias to meet if they're going to utilize the services. And I think that's where we have to come to a happy medium and figure out what it is we're going to do as a community.

Ms. Paul

But the first thing we need to do is get the crime rate under control, and the next thing you need to do is make sure you do what you promised. You promised us as constituents that you were going to set this mobile substation up. I don't think that we would have some of these issues right now and that that would have gotten as bad as it has if we went through and did what we said we were going to do. And that's on you guys to go through and bring it up.

Fred A. Neil

Thank you.

Fred A. Neil

That is the last of our regular our speakers. Does anybody else want to speak on this uh subject?

Fred A. Neil

If not, we have a motion on the floor.

Fred A. Neil

Yes uh Councilman Anderson.

David L. Anderson

Oh, thank you, Mr. President. One of the things I I do agree with um quite frankly with uh a lot of what Ms. Paul said is that this this council voted for a downtown policing unit, and we've yet to it get any motion on it. Um something you know something's got to happen. It That was a professional recommendation. Uh that's not something we came up with, but it was a professional recommendation from our police department.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

No. No. No. No. No, because I I I brought that up many years ago. I brought that up, mobile mini station. It wasn't from the police department. Councilman, you give me my props on that now.

David L. Anderson

Well, you you brought up uh for a for a mobile You did bring up a mobile police station.

Fred A. Neil

Whoa, whoa, whoa. Order. Order. Councilman Anderson, continue. I will call you next.

David L. Anderson

And I I still have the floor, but I but I but I definitely agree with you you that you brought up the mobile police station, which is one way of doing it. And the police department said, well, that brings too many costs, but a dedicated downtown mobile unit is would be would be in their view was the better way to go. And that was their professional recommendation, and and it has yet to happen. Um and uh

David L. Anderson

I definitely hope that in the next budget if before we be approving things that we we make that happen because that is a if because that that's just a a basic function. Uh we we do need uh encourage neighborhood watches and other neighborhoods uh and that's uh important. But I I think at at this particular time, um I I also do think that, yeah, looking at a program like this actually helps solve the problem, not create the problem.

David L. Anderson

Um I I think that's important. I I think uh this program is already doing licenses and things and already exists because it it has other grant funding that covers most of the program. Um I I do um think that uh it would probably be wise um if um for the applicant to with uh draw the f- at this time while these issues are there, because it's a lot easier to um reapply if something isn't voted down. Um

David L. Anderson

but uh that's what I would hope would happen, but um

Unknown Speaker

The applicant withdraws.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I think we have a motion on the floor, though, I so I don't I think we have to vote on the motion that's on the floor.

Fred A. Neil

Dr. Dr. Sudler.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Tell me, I'm not I'm not sure if um Madam Clerk, can you can you help us out here?

Andre M. Boggerty

It's been It's been a long short night.

David L. Anderson

And and um and uh and me still having the floor, an applicant can withdraw an application, which would make it moot, would and can withdraw an application at any time before a vote.

Fred A. Neil

I I'll call the vote.

Andre M. Boggerty

I second. I second the call.

Fred A. Neil

The fact is we really want to have have some they wanted to have a a vote to see how we basically stand. I call the vote.

Fred A. Neil

Any Yes, uh Councilwoman Arndt.

Tricia K. Arndt

Madam Clerk, could you restate the motion for us?

City Clerk

Yes. So Mr. Neil moved to remove the item from the agenda, however we have already had it, and deny the request. So I'm not sure if we want to amend that.

Fred A. Neil

Now we're questioning the application uh submitted by the People's uh Community Center, located within the People's Church, for Economic Development Funds, be denied at this time.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

I have a question. If it is denied at this time, they do have an opportunity to bring it back and what's the time what's the period?

Fred A. Neil

Correct.

Roy Sudler, Jr.

Okay.

Fred A. Neil

Ready to call the question? Please, Madam Clerk, call the roll.

City Clerk

Ms. Hall?

Donyale M. Hall

Yes.

City Clerk

Mr. Boggerty?

Andre M. Boggerty

For clarity, yes, I vote to deny the the request.

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

as amended.

Julia M. Pillsbury

Pillsbury seconds.

David L. Anderson

It's been moved by Councilman Rocha, second by Dr. Pillsbury, to accept the staff recommendation for the travel policy. Is there discussion?

David L. Anderson

All those in favor?

Council Members

Aye.

David L. Anderson

Any opposed?

David L. Anderson

Motion carries. Congratulations.

City Staff

Thank you very much.

David L. Anderson

Thank you.

David L. Anderson

All right. Is there, um, any other business for the Legislative, Finance, and Administration Committee?

Gerald L. Rocha, Sr.

I make a motion we adjourn.

David L. Anderson

Hearing none, we stand adjourned.

David L. Anderson

Now then, over to Council President Neil.

Fred A. Neil

The Council Committee as a Whole is now adjourned.